Growing up in an irreligious household.

[SlowwHand]

"And that's really the question I'm asking here: If we don't raise Sophie to believe in God, what do we raise her to believe in? Nothing? That seems kind of cold comfort for a 3 year old."


And that's what I'm really answering.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by JohnT


The closest one to what I believe is the Conservative/Reform Jews, though a bit more humanistic - that if God is acting in the current day, he is doing so through the likes of Newton, Maxwell, Edison, Locke, and all the other progressive ideas and things that mankind has devised to help lift us from the animals... even including Mozart, Goethe, Shakespeare, etc.

Repeat to self: Jews dont proselytize, Jews dont proselytize, Jews dont proselytize.

You've got me mighty tempted though Yours being the kind of search and struggle we need MORE of.

[Asher]

Teaching your child to be godfearing isn't too comforting either.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by JohnT
One of my big problems is that I'm not the "believing" sort... I find it a bit unsettling to be among people who's eyes are glowing in anticipation of the "cause", regardless of whether the cause is political, religious, etc. I especially find the basic assumptions of Christianity hard to swallow, i.e.: that Jesus was the Son of God sent down specifically for the purpose using his death to guilt mankind into obedience.

Here I must fault your understanding of the fundamentals of Christianity as a means of guilt-manipulation. Granted, that may be true in your personal experience (due to family life as described, events in church that you probably won't bother to describe). To project that as the ideal of Christianity should seem out of place, if you give it a second thought.

I'm also disturbed at the lack of God's "official" presence over the past 2 millennia - you think that s/he would have the presence of mind to remind a civilization of doubters that "Yes, I do exist."

God had no "official" presence in the preceding 2 milliennia, either. The Temple in Jerusalem? An official center of Jewish religion, but not an outwardly demonstated presence of God. All the OT miracles, when spread out over the span of time involved, make no noticible impact as far as an "official" presence is concerned. Obviously, God isn't into that.

I'm too much a creature of the Reformation and the Enlightenment to ever be comfortable outside my own counsel and to accept the unproven, divine wisdom of others.

A curious thing for you to say when considering whether or not to raise Sophie RC (since you haven't mentioned any other denoms). If you've only found guilt (that's what I meant before when speaking of oppression), try looking somewhere else.

God isn't in to guilt trips. He says, "Come, let us reason. Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." Not "Your sins are scarlet (let me beat on you a while before going on) and maybe if you take your lumps and you're good after that we'll talk about considering you clean."

The central mystery of Christianity is Christ's resurrection, is it not? On the other hand, it is not a mystery that Jesus fully expected to be betrayed by his followers ("3 times you will deny not knowing me") nor is it a mystery that, even knowing this, he still went to Jerusalem to get killed.

Why?

To get ressurrected of course. To go to his Apostles and say "See what you did? You just killed God!", thereby shaming them into the most effective group of guilt-ridden proselytizers the world has ever seen.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by JohnT


The central mystery of Christianity is Christ's resurrection, is it not? On the other hand, it is not a mystery that Jesus fully expected to be betrayed by his followers ("3 times you will deny not knowing me") nor is it a mystery that, even knowing this, he still went to Jerusalem to get killed.

Why?

To get ressurrected of course. To go to his Apostles and say "See what you did? You just killed God!", thereby shaming them into the most effective group of guilt-ridden proselytizers the world has ever seen.

well, Jesus was JEWISH after all.

"Nu, so kill me, its ok. I'll forgive you. Dont even think about it. But maybe you could CALL once a week??"

[JohnT]

"That's a little bit problematic, since Jesus promises heaven for believers. Do you reject the promise, or are you just not all that concerned?"

Well, bully for him. Many religious types have promised heaven for those who believe in them, Jesus is just the most prominent of these. Why are his words worth more than, say, Mohammed, or Buddha or Jim Jones?

[JohnT]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


well, Jesus was JEWISH after all.

"Nu, so kill me, its ok. I'll forgive you. Dont even think about it. But maybe you could CALL once a week??"

The Mystery of Mysteries has been solved! We can all go home now.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by JohnT

If we don't raise Sophie to believe in God, what do we raise her to believe in?

Raise her to believe in herself. Raise her to believe in the values that you believe in. Then when she asks if you believe in god you tell her what you believe. Chances are that when she first asks she'll accept your beliefs without question, then her friends (when she's older), then maybe she'll develop her own opinions and thoughts on the subject (when she's older yet).

[Ben Kenobi]

Why are his words worth more than, say, Mohammed, or Buddha or Jim Jones?

The central mystery of Christianity is Christ's resurrection,

Look at Buddha, Mohammed, or even Jim Jones. None claim to have died and resurrected from the dead.

thereby shaming them into the most effective group of guilt-ridden proselytizers the world has ever seen.

If you look at the apostles, they were overjoyed when the risen Christ appeared to them. Rather than being guilt-ridden, they were overjoyed to see the fulfillment of Christ's promises of eternal life.

No resurrection, no basis for Christianity.

[Straybow]

Something still isn't right

@ LotM

Originally posted by JohnT
The central mystery of Christianity is Christ's resurrection, is it not? On the other hand, it is not a mystery that Jesus fully expected to be betrayed by his followers ("3 times you will deny not knowing me") nor is it a mystery that, even knowing this, he still went to Jerusalem to get killed.

Why? To get ressurrected of course. To go to his Apostles and say "See what you did? You just killed God!", thereby shaming them into the most effective group of guilt-ridden proselytizers the world has ever seen.

Errmm, no. Again, if all you got is this notion of guilt manipulation something went wrong. Maybe that comes from you father's attitude, or spotty RC attendance, or incomplete self-education in later years, no matter.

The emotional oppression that I've seen as a cause of damage to many raised in legalistic religion (RC, certain baptist strains, etc) is a failure in teaching them to deal with guilt properly—both sources of and responses to guilt.

Guilt is good, if you are actually guilty. How else do you know to do right? A person who feels no guilt is a sociopath. Do you not think there must be some healthy range between that and guilt-ridden neurosis?

If you are a first-century Jew, and your political and social expectations resulted in the long-awaited Messiah's death instead of the consummation of Messianic glory, you'd feel guilty for the right reasons. The people in Jerusalem who heard Peter's proclamation of Jesus as Messiah, slain and raised to glory, were cut to the heart and wondered what to do. Answer: Repent and receive forgiveness.

If the process is suspended to maintain a guilt complex in order to manipulate, that is wrong (and that didn't happen in Apostolic preaching). The purpose of guilt is to point to the correction. The cross is corrective, not manipulative.

The central mystery of Christianity isn't some avataristic manifestation supplied as a humanistic example or social tool. This isn't the place to preach, so I'll just say that you need to find out where your understanding fell short and fill in the lack. I'd put better odds of finding that in most Prot denoms than in RCism.

[JohnT]

"The central mystery of Christianity isn't some avataristic manifestation supplied as a humanistic example or social tool. "

So what is the central mystery?

[Alexander's Horse]

It's still going

[st_swithin]

Dude, that is sooOOooo butch.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
It's still going

Actually, if this EXACT THING was taught as a core priniciple of Christianity, it would be a much cooler religion.

The mystic side has been lost among boring heartless rituals and mind numbing ceremonies

[monolith94]

"None claim to have died and resurrected from the dead."

Although one could safely presume that Bhudda had been reincarnated before, though.