Conscription

[Berzerker]

I believe the first time a draft was enacted was the US Civil War, but I certainly wouldn't point to Abraham Lincoln as a defender of the Constitution.

[Ming]

Berz... I always seperate politics from friendship... so no worry on the golf

As to your question... I was in the lottery for the draft for Viet Nam... I didn't get selected, but I would have gone. I would have taken the risk to die for somebody else's security. I have no problem with the youth of today taking the same risk I would have. I don't see it as an issue of being moral or not. It my mind, it's a contract between you and the government.

[David Floyd]

First... this thread is about conscription...

It's about the morality of conscription.

And the Country has had it in the past... and it was deemed constitutional...

The original case here is Arver v US. This decision was pretty much made in an era of war fervor, that was made even more evident by a case called Schenk v US. Basically, SCOTUS upheld a number of laws preventing the criticism of war, criticising Conscription, even criticising the government, and rejected a challenge to conscription. Anyone who points to these decisions and claims they are a result of ANYTHING other than nationalism/patriotism and war fervor are basically wrong.

But as far as absolutes... murder (and I don't consider self defense murder) rape... slavery (and I don't consider conscription slavery)... racism... just a few off the top of my head.

OK, those are absolutes, and I agree that these are always wrong. Now, WHY are they always wrong? What do they all have in common?

The common denominators are individual liberty, and the right to life, wouldn't you agree?

[David Floyd]

I would have taken the risk to die for somebody else's security. I have no problem with the youth of today taking the same risk I would have.

If this is true, why didn't you volunteer?

[Ming]

Yep... but the difference is, I don't see it as a loss of personal freedom. I see it as a contract between country and citizen. It is a choice you agree to make by being a citizen. If you don't agree, you can change your citizenship to somewhere else... your choice... your individual freedom...

[David Floyd]

Yep... but the difference is, I don't see it as a loss of personal freedom. I see it as a contract between country and citizen.

And you still haven't justified the existence of such a contract. It certainly didn't exist at the beginning, so where did it come from? Did the government just make it up?

Furthermore, saying that being forced to join the military isn't a loss of personal freedom is ridiculous. It ignores the definition of several words, most notably "force" and "freedom".

[Ming]

Originally posted by David Floyd
If this is true, why didn't you volunteer?

I took my chance by being in the lottery... I signed up, and didn't get called. I was lucky. And that's the way it was back then. I lived up to my contract with the US government.

[Berzerker]

Thank God you lucked out like my older brother. Leaving aside the fact you might have died, for no one's security except possibly for the S Vietnamese, the fact you would have gone doesn't mean forcing you to go would have been moral. I can certainly risk my life to save another person, but that doesn't mean it's moral for me to force you to give up your life. But people don't sign this contract, it's imposed upon them by others, often by people who will avoid the same contract when it's their turn to go.

Berz... I always seperate politics from friendship... so no worry on the golf

Whew, you didn't seem like the type to hold a grudge over such mundane matters. But I did see the pleasure you got banning people.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is a choice you agree to make by being a citizen.

Most are born to their citizenship, so how can this be a choice?

[David Floyd]

I took my chance by being in the lottery... I signed up, and didn't get called. I was lucky. And that's the way it was back then. I lived up to my contract with the US government.

Sure, but if you were so willing to go fight, then you should have volunteered and taken the place of someone not so willing.

[David Floyd]

By the way, if anyone thinks that Daniel Webster is an authority on the Constitution, check out this link:

http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul32.html

Regardless of the URL, it's an actual speech by Webster posted in its entirety, not some analysis of Webster's unstated thoughts.

[Ming]

Originally posted by David Floyd
And you still haven't justified the existence of such a contract. It certainly didn't exist at the beginning, so where did it come from? Did the government just make it up?

No... they didn't "make it up"... they passed a LAW. And from that point on, it is a contract. Again... laws have changed since the beginning... and that's life.

Furthermore, saying that being forced to join the military isn't a loss of personal freedom is ridiculous. It ignores the definition of several words, most notably "force" and "freedom".

No... it isn't ridiculous. You aren't being FORCED. You have a CHOICE... the FREEDOM TO SAY, I'm not going... and you can face the penality, or leave the country.

Again... as a citizen, you must follow the rules. But you always have the freedom to go someplace where you can find what you are looking for.

[Berzerker]

Hey David, when were those cases? Were they during the Civil War or before (or after)?

[Berzerker]

Again... as a citizen, you must follow the rules.

[Ming]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Sure, but if you were so willing to go fight, then you should have volunteered and taken the place of someone not so willing.

I never said I was "willing to fight"... I said I lived up to my commitment to the state. If I had been called, I would have... but I wasn't. I lived up to my contract with the state...

Remember... nothing is forcing you to be a citizen of the US... you have the Freedom to renounce that citizenship if you don't want to live up to what it means by being an American.