Berlusconi now completely mad - should Germany invade?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
GP, please... what happened to your handle change plans anyway?

Maybe I should ask for a vacation. I am doing a lot of spamming and trolling.

[Ecthy]

same here

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
precisely - i did not say guilt, i said obligation.

If the German obligation is to remeber, and to know that they have done something wrong, believe me, they are more than living with this obligation.
If the German obligation is to shut up everytime they'd compare something evil with Hitler (btw, a horror they experienced first hand), and to shut up eveytime they are told being nazis, well, I don't agree with you.

BTW, Germany has made huge efforts into remebering and acknowledging its horrible past. France has recently been doing so recently. Where are the other countries ? Where does the US officially apologize for the Indian genocide ? Where does Australia officially apologize for the Native genocide ? Where does Japan officially apologize for WW2 horrors ? Where does Turkey officially apologize for the 1915 genocide ?

Face it, the Krauts (and to some extent the Frogs) are the ones who can give lessons when it comes to the "obligation of memory".

[Ecthy]

Spiffor

I'm getting sick of that American moral high ground...

[GePap]

The moral performance of the Italian Army? And how much can you separate this from the overall moral performance of the Italian state which this army served? That by its actions facilitated german actions, and hence all the immoralities of the German army serving the Nazi state?

In the discussion as it was, the morality of either force was a non-issue.

i have a moral obligation to do what i can within a democratic system to ensure that the government pays its debt - and a similar moral obligation to see that the government pays it moral debts.

Not realy. You assume a moral system in which debts exists. The government can i theory incurr finatial debt forever,.a s long as it could both service it and meet other fiscal responsibilities. Of course, the goevrnment could always nullify its debt and move on. I assume you don't think "moral debts" can just be defaulted on?

I believe in moral responsibilities for individuals and groups, but not in moral debts for groups, only for individuals.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Spiffor

I'm getting sick of that American moral high ground...

GePap and Spiffor are fine. But little Eastie is a beastie. Commie borderguard shooting people trying to escape.

[Az]

I knew there was something I liked about him.

[Ecthy]

everyone knows "GP" is just an acronym for "GePap"

and stop making fun of victims of the system [/lotm mode]

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

If the German obligation is to remeber, and to know that they have done something wrong, believe me, they are more than living with this obligation.
If the German obligation is to shut up everytime they'd compare something evil with Hitler (btw, a horror they experienced first hand), and to shut up eveytime they are told being nazis, well, I don't agree with you.

BTW, Germany has made huge efforts into remebering and acknowledging its horrible past. France has recently been doing so recently. Where are the other countries ? Where does the US officially apologize for the Indian genocide ? Where does Australia officially apologize for the Native genocide ? Where does Japan officially apologize for WW2 horrors ? Where does Turkey officially apologize for the 1915 genocide ?

Face it, the Krauts (and to some extent the Frogs) are the ones who can give lessons when it comes to the "obligation of memory".

i do not think Germans are required to shut up whenever they are told they are Nazis. I never said so.
Do the germans have the right to compare other evils with Nazis? Im not sure. I have trouble with anyone comparing other evils to the holocaust - i have trouble with Jews directly comparing other evils to the holocaust (though i realize i have said things that might be read that way - im sorry if i was sloppy) And yes, i would say that applies a fortiori to Germans.

Should the US officially apologize for past mis-deeds? President Clinton apologized to Africa for the slave trade. I thought he was right to do so. Should we officially apologize for misdeeds against American Indians - I would agree. We have done much here to focus on the history of african americans, including slavery and Jim Crow, and on the history of Native Americans.

I am quite aware of what the FRG has done in holocaust awareness, memory and eductation, and I quite admire it. I was not saying that the FRG has failed in that regard, i was making an aside in regard to a fairly narrow issue. I dont think I was wrong, but i now think my turn of phrase has taken away from what i intended to say, and i regret it.

I do note that the person posting anti-semitic material is someone from that portion of Germany not originally part of the FRG, where, IIUC, holocaust remembrance and education were profoundly different than in the FRG. OTOH I assumed he was young enough he'd be a product of the FRG educational system. I hope this way of thinking is not common in the eastern lander of todays FRG.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
everyone knows "GP" is just an acronym for "GePap"

and stop making fun of victims of the system [/lotm mode]

Stasi collaborators are not victims.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap

Not realy. You assume a moral system in which debts exists. The government can i theory incurr finatial debt forever,.a s long as it could both service it and meet other fiscal responsibilities. Of course, the goevrnment could always nullify its debt and move on. I assume you don't think "moral debts" can just be defaulted on?

I believe in moral responsibilities for individuals and groups, but not in moral debts for groups, only for individuals.

Only an individual can be a moral actor. Well, of course.
But i may have moral obligations relating to my role in the state. Suppose the US govt does something negligent - lets say it runs experiments on people by not treating them for syphilis for example. They sue for damages. Lets say the govt decides to default on that obligation. Of course its defaulting on a legal obligation,not a moral one, since its not a moral actor. Suppose now it becomes a matter for debate during an election campaign, and one politician says we should make a payment to the those who were wronged in this experiment, and another says no. Do I have a moral obligation to (ceteris paribus) to vote for the one calling for payment to the victims - I would argue that I do have such an obligation.

I would go further (though its not necessary for the above point) that i have such an obligation, even though said experiment happened before I was born.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Spiffor

I'm getting sick of that American moral high ground...

thats fairly obvious.

[BeBMan]

I agree that, despite there were other genocides, the holocaust has its special characteristics. We shouldn´t "compare" those crimes, certainly not for relativating the worst one (and I think this wasn´t Spiffs intention), which in my eyes the holocaust is.

I hope this way of thinking is not common in the eastern lander of todays FRG.

If Andy wouldn´t be such a bloody troll, he wouldn´t post such things either, because I highly doubt he actually thinks this way. Oh, and there are other posters from the eastern part of Germany

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GP


Stasi collaborators are not victims.

I dont know what the gentleman in question does in real life. I am only making points about his behavior here.

[Ecthy]

you were making fun of those shot at the border. those were not collaborators.

I'm a friend of chemistry, so stop being nasty. I bet lotm is not.