Berlusconi now completely mad - should Germany invade?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
lord of the marks, why do you think Jews are sneaks?

and in the 50s, they knew in schemes what had happened. and they did not WANT to know more because of the shame, acording to that man, who seemed a great guy to me

and today israelis and other jews are not ashamed. They know both of the physical resistance of some, and the spiritual resistance of others.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro
I´ll ask Markos if we Germans could have a special permition to use nazi avatars since any poster here must be warned of so much evil-doers

ive never said most germans are evil doers, nor do i think so.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GP
I don't think that the unborn carry the debts of their fathers. I do think that it is important to make sure that people understand why something was worng and that it was wrong.

you take your fathers house, you take the mortgage tht goes with it. you dont want the mortgage, leave the house.

and can i tell the IRS that i dont want to pay for the part of the national debt incurred before i was born?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
and Germans have special obligations as well ( of course if they decide their nationality is European....?)

That isn´t disputed here, of course this is true, and it is not affected by a European identity Germany could adopt (but I think we would never simply say we are not Germans, but Europeans, so we aren´t responsible). But this is not primarily an individual problem. When you ask me personally if I feel responsible for WWII or Holocaust, then the answer is "no, not at all". But this doesn´t mean that we are not aware of our history, and that Germany as a whole should not be committed to certain relations with Israel. But you can´t hold individuals responsible for things they never did, only because they are part of the same nation which did horrible things 50 years ago.

IMO, GP summed it up perfectly here:

I do think that it is important to make sure that people understand why something was worng and that it was wrong.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
reminds me of folks in my country who say they dont owe anything to blacks cause they werent alive during slavery.

They don't as individuals owe blacks anything for slavery whatsoever. As indidivuals they owe blacks for either partaking or condoning a system in which they are still discriminated against. THAT is the debt, one of today, not of the past.

I disagree. You accept the benefits and assets of being a citizen of a country, you accept its debts. No one says they shouldnt have to pay back govt bonds cause they werent alive when the debt was incurred - applies the same to debts that were never recognized, and to moral obligations as well as financial ones.

Ctizenship is a legal definition, and one that can be changed. I assume you believe that if a kid is born in the US to American parents, but at legal age moves to a different country and renoucnes American citizenship and delcares himself citizen of another country, that is is utterly absolved of debts of his birth? As is is of any finantial debts the country he was once a citizen of? And of course, yo do assume he assumed the debts of the other, right? Case the guilt is based on a legally defined situation?

My country DOES have a special obligation to africa - as President Clinton recognized -

American does have an olbigation to Africa, for things done during the lifetimes of many American officials that still live and may still hold power. We have an olbigation for our ongoing conduct, as a goernment and society, yes. But not for the century past.

and Germans have special obligations as well ( of course if they decide their nationality is European....?)

I do nott hink so. They have oligations in the present and for the future, but not from the past.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
and can i tell the IRS that i dont want to pay for the part of the national debt incurred before i was born?

You don;t pay the national debt, you pay taxes. If the governemnt decides not to pay its debt, then that is the government's fault. your obligation to pay taxes now, as a duty of a citizen. It is politicians who decide spending priorities.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro


That isn´t disputed here, of course this is true, and it is not affected by a European identity Germany could adopt (but I think we would never simply say we are not Germans, but Europeans, so we aren´t responsible). But this is not primarily an individual problem. When you ask me personally if I feel responsible for WWII or Holocaust, then the answer is "no, not at all". But this doesn´t mean that we are not aware of our history, and that Germany as a whole should not be committed to certain relations with Israel. But you can´t hold individuals responsible for things they never did, only because they are part of the same nation which did horrible things 50 years ago.

IMO, GP summed it up perfectly here:

i dont disagree with what you have said. This arose because i suggested that Germans should be aware of the role of the Italian army in WW2, and its contrast with the wehrmacht. This in a context where several posters, germans among them, were mocking the Italian army. I dont think that implies personal responsibility by contemporary Germans for the holocaust.

As a US citizen, I accept a national responsibility for slavery, despite it happenening before i was born or my ancestors came to the US. And if an American were to mock the performance of the Brit navy the 1840's, when britain had banned slavery and my nation had not, and someone pointed out the anti-slave trade activities of the brit navy, and said that as an american i should be particulary aware of them, i would think that appropriate.

(sudden flash - major image of Royal navy fighting the slave trade in recent american culture - from Spielberg's "Amistad" Spielberg also filmed "Schindlers List" paradigmatic image of a righteous German in recent American culture. so we go in circles)

[Ecthy]

I summed it up quite well, too.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Ctizenship is a legal definition, and one that can be changed. I assume you believe that if a kid is born in the US to American parents, but at legal age moves to a different country and renoucnes American citizenship and delcares himself citizen of another country, that is is utterly absolved of debts of his birth? As is is of any finantial debts the country he was once a citizen of? And of course, yo do assume he assumed the debts of the other, right? Case the guilt is based on a legally defined situation?

precisely - i did not say guilt, i said obligation.

[GePap]

and the German obligation is?

[Ecthy]

that's what I've been talking about all the time, has noone read my post on the matter?

[TCO]

You're from the East. Nobody cares what you say.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


You don;t pay the national debt, you pay taxes. If the governemnt decides not to pay its debt, then that is the government's fault. your obligation to pay taxes now, as a duty of a citizen. It is politicians who decide spending priorities.

i have a moral obligation to do what i can within a democratic system to ensure that the government pays its debt - and a similar moral obligation to see that the government pays it moral debts. And my obligations as a citizen may go beyond formal legal obligations, to acting as a meritorious citizen, in ways that reflect well on my country, and that take into account my country's moral obligations. my country pays its moral debts not only in actions of the government, but through actions of the people. ( i think we are getting into a split between a contractual definition of the state, rooted in 17th cent pol philosophy, and a notion that there are morally relevant social entities, families, nations, etc and human beings can have obligations beyond personal and contractual ones. i dont think we're going to resolve that here, and i think youre getting a little worked up about an aside about obligations of Germans to be aware of something. But then i get worked up about asides too, so who am i to complain? Lets just leave it now)

[Ecthy]

GP, please... what happened to your handle change plans anyway?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
and the German obligation is?

In this case, what i said (or meant to say) was an obligation to keep in mind the moral performance of the Italian army when discussing the role of the Italian army in WW2. Thats all, not an obligation to pay anyone, fight anywhere, or cast particular votes at the UN. If i had known we were going to get into a phil tussle, i wouldnt have mentioned it - it didnt really add very much to the rest of my post.