Berlusconi now completely mad - should Germany invade?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro


If that goes to me - no, I see no reason to reply to Andy, since he´s obviously trolling. And that is not something never seen before....

ive seem him troll, but ive never seem him say anything like this - does he do it regularly??

[GePap]

As one who has studied the Holocaust for a long time, I personally don;t think germans of today have to "keep anything in mind". I believe people are born innocent. Ignorance by anyone about the past is shamefull, specially somehting like the Holocaust, but I will not hold anyone born after 1945 in any way more responsible than others for anything that hapeend before it, no matter their nationality is.

As for the military aspects: The italians did OK in WW1. Their preformance was neither stelar nor abysmal.
As for WW2, the Italian regime was vaslty better to it's Jewish citizens and Jews living under its rule than most Axis allies. BUt they were Axis allies nonetheless. They may ave portected Jews under them, but how many Jews fell under Nazi rule becuase of their allience? (Including, eventually, those Jews that had fled to Italian lands?)

[Ecthy]

Your final word demonstrates your wit and thus following your debating skills.

I'm glad we could get over thsi without any personal insults

[lord of the mark]

Zog nit keyn mol az du geyst dem letstn veg,
Khotsh himeln blayene farshtein bloye teg.
Kumen vet nokh undzer oysgebenkte sho -
S'vet a poyk ton undzer trot - mir zaynen do!

Fun grinem palmenland biz vaysn land fun shney,
Mir kumen on mit undzer payn, mit undzer vey,
Un vu gefain s'iz a shprits fun undzer blut,
Shprotsn vet dort undzer gvure, undzer mut.


S'vet di morgnzun bagildn undz dem haynt,
Un der nekhtn vet farshvindn mitn faynd,
Nor oyb farzamen vet di zun in dem kayor -
Vi a parol zol geyn dos lid fun dor tsu dor.


Dos lid geshribn iz mit blut un nit mit blay,
S'iz not keyn lidl fun a foygl af der fray,
Dos hot a fold tsvishn faindike vent
Dos lid gezungen mit naganes in di hent!


To zog nit keyn mol az du geyst dem letstn veg,
Khotsh kimlen blayene farshtein bloye teg,
Kumen vet nokh undzer oysgebenkte sho -
S'vet a poyk ton undzer trot - mir zaynen do

[GePap]

care to translate? Yiddish is not very big anymore.

[Az]

GePap: A very correct last post, every word is true.

I would like to point out that Duche wasn't an anti-semite, and deported the Jews only because of his alliance with Hitler.

[Ecthy]

lotm, what's your opinion about the former Israeli ambassador to Germany? is he a nzi and bastardm too? HE said it's a scar in Israeli society (or was, in the 50s) that they went down without defense.

...which is what I quoted. strange how it would make someone thinking themselves so educated collapse like that....

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
As one who has studied the Holocaust for a long time, I personally don;t think germans of today have to "keep anything in mind". I believe people are born innocent. Ignorance by anyone about the past is shamefull, specially somehting like the Holocaust, but I will not hold anyone born after 1945 in any way more responsible than others for anything that hapeend before it, no matter their nationality is.

reminds me of folks in my country who say they dont owe anything to blacks cause they werent alive during slavery. I disagree. You accept the benefits and assets of being a citizen of a country, you accept its debts. No one says they shouldnt have to pay back govt bonds cause they werent alive when the debt was incurred - applies the same to debts that were never recognized, and to moral obligations as well as financial ones. My country DOES have a special obligation to africa - as President Clinton recognized - and Germans have special obligations as well ( of course if they decide their nationality is European....?)

[TCO]

I don't think that the unborn carry the debts of their fathers. I do think that it is important to make sure that people understand why something was worng and that it was wrong.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
lotm, what's your opinion about the former Israeli ambassador to Germany? is he a nzi and bastardm too? HE said it's a scar in Israeli society (or was, in the 50s) that they went down without defense.

...which is what I quoted. strange how it would make someone thinking themselves so educated collapse like that....

They knew less in the 50's, and they were influenced by Israeli stereotypes about the Jews of Europe. Did he also say the things about Jews being sneaks?

[Kramerman]

They were in a difficult strategic position - they attacked Austrian and later German troops in impossiple alpine terrain.

yes... impossible... thats why Erwin Rommel single handedly captured practically a batallion there... it sems the alps were just difficult terrain for one side of the war.

Im just going by the Rommel's biography. He learned great disdain toward the Italians in WWI because he at least perceived them to be inept (not to mention he saw them as trecherous), and it frustrated him in WWII when his 'allies' were handicaping him instead of aiding.

Despite the reasons (which are MANY... i wont get into their TERRIBLE service rifle of both world wars...grrr), the Italians practically knew only defeat in those two world wars, leading most to see them as inept. This much is true. But like I said, they had many good reasons for their misfortunes. My earlier comment wasnt serious, btw

[Ecthy]

you should just differ between guilt and responsibility. noone can actually blame Germans of today (or anyone else) for what has happened in the past. but people should know what they're seen as abroad, and act in a certain way. I know that when in Israel, I'm the guy from the country that killed their ancestors, so I won't tell every guy there "hey, you can't blame me, it was my grampa not me " or so, wouldn't be appropriate. you offer an ear and show dignity for both yourself and the one you're talking to.

apart from that, you just let it flow, normalcy in relations is the best way to show you've overcome bad times.

normalcy shouldn't be mixed up with blindness though. sometimes people want to keep the illusion of everything being normal when there was no discussion beforehand. there's been a lot of discussion regarding the holocaust though, so normalcy is in fact an option. it's still crucial what you think of yourself and your people though, when you're in that country.

so it's all in "guilt" and "responsibility".

[Ecthy]

lord of the marks, why do you think Jews are sneaks?

and in the 50s, they knew in schemes what had happened. and they did not WANT to know more because of the shame, acording to that man, who seemed a great guy to me

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
care to translate? Yiddish is not very big anymore.

Never say that this is the end of the road.
Wherever a drop of our blood fell, there our courage will
grow anew.
This song, written in blood, was sung by a people fighting
for life and freedom.
Our triumph will come and our resounding footsteps will
proclaim "We are here!"

From land of palm-trees to the far-off land of snow.
We shall be coming with our torment, with our woe;
And everywhere our blood has sunk into the earth
Shall our bravery, or vigor blossom forth.

We'll have the morning sun to set our day aglow;
Our evil yesterdays shall vanish with the foe.
But if the time is long before the sun appears,
then let this song go like a signal through the years.

This song was written with our blood, and not with lead;
It's not a song that summer birds sing overhead;
It was a people, amidst burning barricades,
That sang this song of ours with pistols and grenades.

So never say you now go on your last way,
Through darkened skies may now conceal the blue of day,
Because the hour for which we've hungered is so near,
Beneath our feet the earth shall thunder, "We are here!"

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kramerman


yes... impossible... thats why Erwin Rommel single handedly captured practically a batallion there... it sems the alps were just difficult terrain for one side of the war.

the italians had tactical victories as well, ISTR.