Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
I guess the unemployment of those burglars, rapists, child molesters, drug dealers, armed robbers, etc., should be mourned?

Sadly, many of these people are not unemployed, but employed in prison. While on the one hand, I think that convicts ought to work to pay for their incarceration, on the other, every job a convict does is one less job for someone on the outside. I'd rather they had to sit on their ass all day than some law-abiding citizen (or at least someone who hasn't been caught yet) loose their job.

[Kidlicious]

I better get started on that post about economic realities causing crime. This is post 449.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I wouldn't use the word "real." Use the word, "alternate." The Department of Labor publishes two set's of unemployment numbers. The first is the number we've all come to know and love. The other, slightly more accurate number, is the alternate.

Um, we're talking about a deviation of (in some cases) over 1,000% here, especially in the number of discouraged unemployed. Any more "slight" and the earth will crack open.

[Imran Siddiqui]

All we have to do is pay scientists the same way we pay everyone else.

Scientists are usually paid more... and that is because they are a part of corporations. The projects they work on require IMMENSE capital. One of the main ways to get it is through banks (loans) and issuing stock. Without those devises, you can't raise the capital in order to produce these great innovations.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


If you are so well informed on Marx then tell be where he advocated the entrepreneur.

Sorry, memorization of Marxist cant isn't part of my religion, it's part of yours. I'd have to actually go look it up, and I can't be arsed, so would you mind refreshing my memory?

Or don't bother if it's inconvenient - seriously, I don't see the need to look it up, since Marx wrote in the context of 19th century European industrialization. Even if/when he was right about something, it's all long dated.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'd rather they had to sit on their ass all day than some law-abiding citizen (or at least someone who hasn't been caught yet) loose their job.

The big problem is that a bored prisioner can easily become a rioting prisioner (because of that boredom).

[alva]

So the DOL publishes "cooked" figures and "real" figures?

Please cite... and from the DOL itself, please. I can't find these alternate numbers anywhere on the stats.bls.gov site.

Thanks!

Can speak for the US goverment, but the Begian goverment doesthis too.
They use the clean one (the one with lowest number) in debates and such, but they keep forgetting about the real number, the one that does include for example +55 year old people(they don't include them since they very little chance of finding a job and (try to) consider them on their pension already)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
you can't raise the capital in order to produce these great innovations.

Originally posted by Kidicious
Innovation is no longer too important, ...

[Kidlicious]

I think I'll start another thread on the crime thing. That is, unless anyone objects.

Imran, I'm not necessarily against paying scientists more, but you don't need savings to pay them in a communist system.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I better get started on that post about economic realities causing crime. This is post 449.

No real need. I pointed out that a large portion of that "incarcerated" workforce was incarcerated for non-economic crimes (hence economic conditions don't particularly influence their criminality, unless you want to argue capitalism leads to rape and child molestation too).

Given that the current unemployment rate, though fairly bad, is actually less than the peak rates for the last two recessions, you'd have a hard time correlating incarceration rates for economic crimes (factor in length of sentencing, etc.) to the state of the economy in the last 20 years.

[JohnT]

Bully for the Belgians. I want the US Department of Labor cite that states that there are two figures, and I want to know where I can look up those figures at the DOL site.

Did I just use the term "bully"?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran, I'm not necessarily against paying scientists more, but you don't need savings to pay them in a communist system.

Yeah, and you don't need scientists in YOUR communist system because you don't believe any innovations are important anymore and nothing new will be made in your system .

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Sadly, many of these people are not unemployed, but employed in prison. While on the one hand, I think that convicts ought to work to pay for their incarceration, on the other, every job a convict does is one less job for someone on the outside. I'd rather they had to sit on their ass all day than some law-abiding citizen (or at least someone who hasn't been caught yet) loose their job.

And I'd rather see them get real job skills, although I also favor a two tier system for prisoners. One a "lock 'em up and throw away the key" for the dangerous and hardcore offenders, and the other a real attempt at rehab, with job training, useful job skills, education, counseling, and a bunch of other touchy-feely stuff like that.

[alva]

Yeah, and you don't need scientists in YOUR communist system because you don't believe any innovations are important anymore and nothing new will be made in your system .

You don't want me to quote the head of the american patent office do you

(ok, it was a while back .. )

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Sorry, memorization of Marxist cant isn't part of my religion, it's part of yours. I'd have to actually go look it up, and I can't be arsed, so would you mind refreshing my memory?

No, Marx recognized the entrepreneur as necessary for the capitalist system, but he is replaced in the communist system by central planning. I'm opening myself up to leftists who will say the planning doesn't have to be centralized, but oh well. They might actually right, but I advocate central planning.

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Or don't bother if it's inconvenient - seriously, I don't see the need to look it up, since Marx wrote in the context of 19th century European industrialization. Even if/when he was right about something, it's all long dated.

Good point. The exploitation agrument is outdated, although exploitation still exists. The reason is the unequal distribution in wages. It's hard to say that people with the high wages are exploited, because they use their knowledge to get such high wages.