Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[Imran Siddiqui]

Too strong a conclusion to draw from the historical evidence.

Perhaps, but that was his point. Central planning cannot account for the wants and needs of the society adequately. A market is really the only thing that can, which is why if communism was every forced upon me, I'd prefer the 'worker democracy' kind of communism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I consider it telling that you have never heard of the law of unintended consequences.

Corruption is a problem that plagues the whole world. It's got nothing to do with economic systems.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Corruption is a problem that plagues the whole world. It's got nothing to do with economic systems.

So you don't think certain economic systems may be 'more' corrupt than others (obviously you do)?

[Velociryx]

Of course they don't say it! It's tough to get membership if you come right out and SAY it's a corrupted system, but c'mon.....come with me and let's stroll down memory lane to look at the track records of the communist experiments that have been trotted out onto the world stage thus far, shall we?

No? But of course you don't want to do that....and why not?

Perhaps....just *perhaps* is it because every time the system you're so in love with has been tried, it has been....exactly as we have....exactly as HISTORY has described?

Centralized. Authoritarian. Brutal. Corrupt.

These are words all synonomous with the system AS IMPLEMENTED you wish us to have faith in.

Not happening.

That would be like me coming here and talking up a FANTASTIC new solar power source.

Yep, that's right. I have made (on paper), a solar cell that's 110% efficient! It will REVOLUTIONIZE the industry, can be cheaply made, and means that everyone in the world will be able to take advantage of the wonders of electricity!

All I need is $10,000 from each of you in order to get me started!

Will you invest?

Probably not without grilling me with questions, cos hey, we're talking money, right?

But when you ask, I will simply say: "Hey guys! This plan is GREAT! Look at it on paper! Doesn't it look fantastic! 110% efficient! Electricity for everyone!"

But how do we know it works?! No other solar cell that's ever been made is anything close to that efficient!

Oh....don't you worry! It'll work! I promise! It says so right here in my schematic!

How can we trust your schematic?

God but aren't you a pessimist! It SAYS it will work, isn't that enough?! Now...give me your money!

Sound familiar?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Corruption is a problem that plagues the whole world. It's got nothing to do with economic systems.

So you don't think certain economic systems may be 'more' corrupt than others (obviously you do)?

That depends on if you include exploitation in your definition.

[Velociryx]

Here's a question for the Kid (two actually):

1) How do you define "exploitation" What is your consice definition of the word, please.

and

2) Found that quote yet?

-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

That depends on if you include exploitation in your definition.

Exploitation doesn't come close to equaling corruption... in the slightest.

You can have the most non-corrupt capitalist system with no nepotism or 'favors', and yet you'd still say it was exploitation.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Here's a question for the Kid (two actually):

1) How do you define "exploitation" What is your consice definition of the word, please.

I use the Marxist definition. It includes profit, rent, and interest. Of course corruption is exploitation too.

[alva]

1) How do you define "exploitation" What is your consice definition of the word, please.

Anything that holds back on personal growth. (not necesairly financial, could be spritual.).

[Imran Siddiqui]

I use the Marxist definition. It includes profit, rent, and interest.

And that explains your problem (as well as Marx) . He considers anyone that willingly works for someone else, and loves his job, to be exploited.

Daft definition!

[Velociryx]

so post it here. I'm asking you to spell it out for us. What is "exploitation," precisely? (way to dodge question 2! )

-=Vel=-

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I use the Marxist definition. It includes profit, rent, and interest. Of course corruption is exploitation too.

Making money is exploitative? Why do you think that making a buck means that you have to exploit someone?

I mean I had a job as a math tutor this past school year in a local high school. So do you think because I made money that I exploited someone???

[Velociryx]

A good definition, Alva! Not one the reds will agree with, but I'm keen on it!

Here's the webster's definition to get the ball rolling:

To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See Synonyms at manipulate.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by The Templar
You're confusing Richard Epstein's theory of regulatory takings with actual case law and statutes. Look at Penn Central Transportation. Or for that matter, the rent control laws in NYC. There's a guy in lower Manhattan with a 7 room apartement paying $200/mo. The market value is closer to 20K/mo. That is almost a complete taking. But guess what? It's not complete so there is no taking.

Nope. Not interested in theory, just in actual application. Municipal rent control ordnances don't interest me much, because there's a whole mishmash of different state laws and inconsistency on the commerce/business nature of renting residential real property. Get out of that quagmire, even into commercial property, or rentals that fall below commercial activity threshholds, and the ability of government

If you've worked in the utility context, your probably thinking of the "physical invasion" doctrine. Namely, if there is a physical invasion, there is a taking.

Not at all. Off the top of my head, I can think of cases where noise impacts from offsite activities, change in flood zone classification due to damming of creeks, change in recreational value of waterfront property, and proximity of a trash to energy powerplant (built at an existing landfill) all were held to require compensation due to effect on the property values of the claimants. In none of those situations did physical invasion occur, and all were permitted activities operating within the scope of the discretionary permits issued for the activities.

At any rate, Amendments can be changed ('tis the very meaning of the word!).

Yes, with a two thirds majority of both houses of Congress, and majority votes of all legislative houses in at least 3/4 of the state legislatures. Good luck!

But my own theory is that a switch to socialism or communism might in itself count as due compensation for the taking.

I'd pay good money to see you argue that theory in front of a Federal judge. At least, if I could film it.

A Lockean! blah blah blah.

Nice bit about English common law. Want to address Rome, etc., and the entire history of development of property law too?

Not a Lockean either. I generally have nothing but contempt for theoreticians (except in fields where actual practice or experiment is impossible) and "philosophers."

Moreover, according to Locke, I can't own a stretch of rain forest because there was no initial acquisition by admixing labor to "improve" it.

Locke is wrong. Not that his or anyone else's philosophical masturbation has any relevance to anything.

So much for any sort of libertarian theory about environmental protection through property entitlements.

Who cares about libertarian theory?

Yes, and the government had the biggest spear-arm! David Koresh learned this the hard way when Janet Reno took his gun from his crispy dead hand. As under William, the King controlled it all and parceled out usage rights in exchange for feudal obligations. You had to preserve your own land though. With usage rights came protective responsibilities. Fail to live up to your obligations and the King took your estate away and gave it to someone else.

And Koresh's resistance of a warrant for his arrest for a non-property related criminal charge has what to do with the notion of property ownership and rights?

Of course this theory contradicts your earlier Lockean view. Which is it? Force that creates property or labor?

I don't give a rat's ass for Locke's view, that was your label.

Uh, the citizens are subserviant to the state. Its a question of degree.

The citizens create the state.

Besides, what do you think the state is? In a representative system, the state is merely the agent of the people - a way to overcome the collective action problem. If you're against the state, then you're against the people - including yourself.

The state is presumed to be an agent of the people in a proper representative system. If the state abuses it's lawful authority, it is no not an agent of the people, because it has violated the scope of that agency.

Temper, temper! Between running down protestors and using force to defend property you've demonstrated the sort of human being you are.

(a) Eat me.
(b) I suppose next time you're burglarized, you'll ask the burglar if you can get him some milk and cookies too?
(c) I didn't say I'd run down protestors.*
(d) Damned right I'll use force to defend property if others use or threaten to use force to take it without just reason.
(e) Valuing "people" has nothing to do with valuing thieves, pirates, etc.

Valuing mere stuff over people's lives?

My mere stuff is more valuable than the life of an ******* who'd try to take it by force, yes.

I though you right-wingers were big on Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that if a man asks for your coat give him your shirt as well?

Jesus also said if you do waste the mother****er, you can ask for forgiveness for your sin and receive it.

Lastly, if the property system is reconfigured, you won't be defending "your stuff" because it won't be yours.

Unless you're talking your lonely bedtime fantasy of a communist revolution in the US or Mexico, then you're talking about representative governments of limited powers, bound by their own legal systems and precedents, so their ability to wave the magic wand and wipe out all property rights, legal precedent, and procedural due process is a tad limited. You guys know you'll never get your nonsense agenda through any legal elective system, so that's why you have to fall back on the mantra of "the coming revolution."

The reason we tolerate your talk of sedition, murder and theft is:

(a) We know it's nothing but talk,
(b) It ain't gonna ever happen, so you can't even elevate it to a conspiracy to make those things happen.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www
Making money is exploitative? Why do you think that making a buck means that you have to exploit someone?

It depends on how you make it. If you work for it then that's not exploitation. If you save some of it and put it in the bank the principal is not exploition, but the interest that you recieve on it is, because that is someone elses labor.