Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Now, research is mostly funded by voluntary contributions of capital. I can invest in it if I want, or I can choose not to.

Under your system, there would need to be a conscious decision to the effect that you're going to take X resources from the standard of living of everyone, to fund this undirected, unpredictable, and probably (in most projects) pointless effort by these bourgeoise intelligentsia types.

So first, how much do you **** over the common working man to pay these researchers and for what projects?

Second, do you go for high talent scientists and support people (who include people like me you'd deem subservice, dangerous, and who have nothing but contempt for your system), or do you go for mediocre scientists who are party hacks?

The USSR also splendidly illustrated how to screw up that issue.

I think you might not understand that when capital is used in the current system to fund scientific research that that uses resources that could otherwise be used to produce other goods and services.

edit: Ok, now I see what you're asking. The funding can be determined similar to the way government funding is determined now.

[alva]

Strange that in almost 500 posts I have not seen a word from either side even mentioning 'quality of life', sad thing if you ask me.
Does technology have to move forward as fast as it does today?* People were able to live and get by before cellphones (and other stuff).
Isn't that the most important bit, what you (whatever form of goverment it is or how you want to call it) do for the people?

* medical advance perhaps being the exception.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Well, let's be real for a second here. The prurpose of the moon race was to develop better ICBM technology. As both sides still have the capacity to annihilate one another and the rest of the human species and 99% of the rest of the biosphere, nobody's winning that race. In nuclear war, there are only losers.

A Saturn V is completely unnessecary for an ICBM. In addition, Kennedy had already informed NASA before the Bay Of Pigs to begin actively devolping a moon program.

If you're looking for a military related space program, think "Dyna-Soar", which would have devolped the same "ICBM" tech (which already was devolped) and been more military oriented.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Serb, in America we have a saying; "It doesn't matter where you were when the race started, it matters where you are when it ends.

Exactly. When space race was started USA had economic unharmed by WW2, while Soviet Union laid in ruins after nazi invasion. USA took best German rocket scientists. Who was the father of American cosmonautic? Von Braun, if I remember correctly. Who was the father of Soviet cosmonautics? Sergei Korolev. Despite that USA was in preferable condiitions, Soviets still were able to kick your asses and launched first satellite and first spaceman.

30+ years later, America has have a dozen moon landings, USSR/Russia= 0

I thought that there were only six manned landings. And btw, why do you think we should send people to the Moon? What for? To gain samples? In 1970 Soviet probe 'Luna 16' automaticly returned samples to Earth.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lonestar
A Saturn V is completely unnessecary for an ICBM. In addition, Kennedy had already informed NASA before the Bay Of Pigs to begin actively devolping a moon program.

You don't think the guidance technology developed to put people on the Moon has a practical application in planting a bomb in Red Square?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Serb


I thought that there were only six manned landings.

I meant "Half a dozen", sorry.

And btw, why do you think we should send people to the Moon?

Because it's there. The same reason why we must ultimately send men to Mars. That and Martian explorers can do much more stuff than robots.

What for? To gain samples? In 1970 Soviet probe 'Luna 16' automaticly returned samples to Earth.

Too bad the Soviet probe program has a worse track record than NASA's.

[Velociryx]

1st probe to reach Venus- Mariner 2, in 1962.

1st and only probe mission to Mercury- triple fly-by accomplished by Mariner 10 in 1974-75.

1st probe mission to Jupiter- Pioneer 10, launched in 1972.

1st probe to visit Saturn- Pioneer 11, in 1979.

1st probe to reach Uranus- Voyager 2, 1986.

1st probe to reach Neptune- Voyager 2, 1989.

1st successful rendezvous in space- Gemini 6 & 7

And, to give a nod to the Russians, the longest space flight was WELL in excess of 400 days:

Valery Polyakov - 679 days

We could go back and forth like this all day tho....and to what end? There IS no USSR any longer, true? A failed communist experiment?

-=Vel=-

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Too bad the Soviet probe program has a worse track record than NASA's.

I don't think soo.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Serb
I thought that there were only six manned landings. And btw, why do you think we should send people to the Moon?

It's a typo. He meant half a dozen.

And you were trying to send people to the moon, so don't act like you were trying to develop a better way. The reason we beat you is because your rockets kept exploding and killing your cosmonauts.

Like I said, be proud of what's real, because the USSR had some great ones. But when you boast of stuff that isn't true, you pull the rug out from underneath the real accomplishments.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You don't think the guidance technology developed to put people on the Moon has a practical application in planting a bomb in Red Square?

Guidence technology was already there with evolving electronics. By the end of the '60s there were guided missiles and bombs that certainly had no basis in the Apollo program.

I will, however, concede that the Apollo program was also a good stunt to crow over the USSR with.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
1st probe to reach Venus- Mariner 2, in 1962.

Yeah, but it didn't land there.

[Dinner]

Wow, 506 posts and counting.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, they made a new thread, Oerdin .

[Tuberski]

He's from california, hours behind and all of that.....

ACK!

[Serb]

Originally posted by Velociryx
1st probe to reach Venus- Mariner 2, in 1962.

It didn't land on surface.
Soviet 'Venera-7' Was the first probe to return data from the surface of another planet. (1970)
And Soviet 'Venera-9' was the first spacecraft to land on the surface of another planet. (landed on Venus in 1975 and made pictures of surface).

1st and only probe mission to Mercury- triple fly-by accomplished by Mariner 10 in 1974-75. 1st probe mission to Jupiter- Pioneer 10, launched in 1972.
1st probe to visit Saturn- Pioneer 11, in 1979.

1st probe to reach Uranus- Voyager 2, 1986.

1st probe to reach Neptune- Voyager 2, 1989.

True.

1st successful rendezvous in space- Gemini 6 & 7

World first automatic docking and undocking of unmanned spacecraft ( Cosmos - 186 - Cosmos -188). (Russian backwardness in electronics, my ass )

And, to give a nod to the Russians, the longest space flight was WELL in excess of 400 days:Valery Polyakov - 679 days

Poor guy. Almost two years in space. I feel pity for his family.

We could go back and forth like this all day tho....and to what end? There IS no USSR any longer, true?

Yeah, let's stop it. The truth is that both sides made great achievments in space exploration and did a great service to entire humanity.

A failed communist experiment?

Nope. The betrayal of Soviet leadership.