Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by The Templar


Well, now we know why if communists win an election there might be blood ...

Well, we know communists will never win an election - they can't even beat out the Libertarians for that half percent or so in the polls.

Actually, the government has wise lattitude to condemn your property for eminent domain.

Yes, by reimbursement at fair market value, subject to judicial proceedings, the right to call independent expert witnesses (appraisers and such). I've dealt with eminent domain actions numerous times, since I work around the utility field. In fact, legislatively franchised private utilities generally have eminent domain rights with respect to facilities dedicated to serve the public. They too are under the same judicial rules. Seizure without due process violates the Federal Constitution.

Or the government can exercise its police power in ways that greatly limit the use of your property or reduce its value without compensating you.

Zoning, development restrictions, etc. are in a different category entirely from seizures or eminent domain actions, but again, they are litigable issues.

Your intellectual property? If the government declares necessity, it can bust your patent and not compensate you. The government can reduce your copyright's length of time.

Again, under very limited and precisely defined situations, subject to judicial proceedings and due process rights.

Even under our capitalist system, your property as at the mercy of the government. And only a total taking will likely force them to pay compensation - and then only if its not under necessity.

"At the mercy" - nice hyperbole, but hardly suited to the reality of the situation. I don't know where you live in the US, but you're a little behind the times on the law - there is plenty of precedent in numerous states for changes in zoning laws or discretionary regulatory action being compensable at law.

In fact, property - private, communal, whatever - is just a form of government regulation in the first place. Property is not naturally occuring, or parceled out by God.

Property ownership is a recognition of a naturally occuring phenomena. When I pick up a piece of rock and make a stone tool, that's my tool, unless I decide to give it to you or let you use it. Take it from me, and if you don't give it back, I'll spear you and mount your head on a spear to let the neighbors know I don't like people taking my stone tools.

Some primitive cultures were communal, some were mixes of individual "stuff" and communal stuff, but the general notion evolved that it was a lot easier to function as a group if there were consistent notions as to who had what. The reason wasn't that "government regulation" created property rights. Your spear arm or club arm did that. Goverment regulation occured because it was a smoother system of managing those issues than de facto trial by combat without rules.

Its parameters are established by the state, and it is enforced by the state. Private property is only the assignment of entitlements to private individuals. WHo does the initial assignment and enforces the system thereafter? The state. "Your" property is only yours because the community has decided to allow such entitlements to exist.

This system has been around in well documented form for over two millenia, and again, evolved out of a desire to reduce the social cost of pre-existing private enforcement by blood.

This is another example of libertarianism just plain getting things wrong. Property is just another government regulation in the first place.

Actually, this is just the commie pseudo-philosophy conveniently ignoring the real purposes of the original formation of the state, to instead create a world view where the state itself is the be-all and end-all source of all things, and the citizens thereof are subservient to the state.

In other words, your saying if the community decides to reassign entitlements, you'll start killing people?

If "the community" decides to say "**** the system of rights, privileges, participatory government, due process, etc., we're all just going to help ourselves to what of yours we want, and tell you what we think we'll deign to let you keep" then I'll be stackin' 'em like cordwood. Bring plenty of firepower, and a strong faith in the mercy of God, because you'll need both.

[Odin]

Corporations
Command Economy
Co-ops

You don't need a centerally planned economy in communism, just make businesses democracies, each empolyee gets equal say in choosing the board of directors, it is both communist and free market. the revolution will be bloody no matter what because governments will allways back the rich. It will be bloodless in the developed countries, but will be a bloodbath in developing countries. True, democratic/anarchic Communism can only work after a country is industrialized and is has a strong democratic tradition (like the US and W. Europe).

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Odin
Corporations
Command Economy
Co-ops

You don't need a centerally planned economy in communism, just make businesses democracies, each empolyee gets equal say in choosing the board of directors, it is both communist and free market. the revolution will be bloody no matter what because governments will allways back the rich. It will be bloodless in the developed countries, but will be a bloodbath in developing countries. True, democratic/anarchic Communism can only work after a country is industrialized and is has a strong democratic tradition (like the US and W. Europe).

what happens when businesses that are run by one person is superior to democratically run businesses? will u just use the military to seize it? or when a democratic business goes bankrupt and everyone loses their job?

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Which rules are those?

Accounting aims to eliminate ambiguities, intentions, hopes, faith, dreams, in sticking to hard data recorded and classified in a simple and universally accepted way. Anytime astute people try to bend those rules, it ends in disaster.

[Velociryx]

Day two....the wait for the quote from Kid continues....

-=Vel=-

[Az]

Originally posted by Odin
Corporations
Command Economy
Co-ops

You don't need a centerally planned economy in communism, just make businesses democracies, each empolyee gets equal say in choosing the board of directors, it is both communist and free market. the revolution will be bloody no matter what because governments will allways back the rich. It will be bloodless in the developed countries, but will be a bloodbath in developing countries. True, democratic/anarchic Communism can only work after a country is industrialized and is has a strong democratic tradition (like the US and W. Europe).

God I hate hate hate hate Syndicalism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Day two....the wait for the quote from Kid continues....

-=Vel=-

You're so full of **** your teeth must me brown. Are you denying that the biggest reason that you support capitalism is because it keeps some people wealthier than they would otherwise be if the wealth were distributed equally? Isn't that what you have been talking about this whole time.

[Velociryx]

Yes. I am absolutely denying that.

IF that is what you believe, then your economics classes taught you absolutely nothing.

Having some trouble finding that quote, are you?
Surprise, surprise.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Accounting aims to eliminate ambiguities, intentions, hopes, faith, dreams, in sticking to hard data recorded and classified in a simple and universally accepted way. Anytime astute people try to bend those rules, it ends in disaster.

I'm not sure whay your point is. Why would accounting be any different in the communist system?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yes. I am absolutely denying that.

I'm tired of this crap then. How can I debate with someone so dishonest?

[alva]

God I hate hate hate hate Syndicalism.

As long as their power is mimited, very very usefull.
-

3) Quietly ensure that some kinna dumb, easily controlled person made it into the White House.

No need for past tense...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You're so full of **** your teeth must me brown.

You're a sensetive one, aren't you?

[Velociryx]

Speaking of honesty, where's that quote, Kid? You accused me, show me the proof. Simple as that.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Speaking of honesty, where's that quote, Kid? You accused me, show me the proof. Simple as that.

-=Vel=-

No need for a quote. You have been arguing that the whole time. If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be in here defending capitalism. Everyone in here defending capitalism believes that.

Let's just call it an obvious perception. So why don't you show why we are seeing things incorectly?

[Velociryx]

Good thing I'm not, eh DD?

That's okay, I'm enjoying watching him try to squirm his way out of showing me that quote! Sure, I was tempted to respond in kind, but if I had, I'd be "projecting" or somesuch....

-=Vel=-