Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[Velociryx]

double post hunted down and eaten.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Hey Comrade...if the shoe fits....

Seriously...what does talking about the "glorious revolution" do to help your fellow, brutally exploited workers? Does it magically make it stop?

Nahhh.

And even if you're an active member of the communist party, what does that amount to? Going to a meeting once a month and getting drunk on the fantasy? How is that helping stop the exploitation of your brothers?

Maybe if you're REALLY active you'll participate in a product boycott or two (now and then).

Hardly anything that one could call "revolutionary" though.

On the other hand, there's no shortage of things that can be done right now (today!) to help your downtrodden bretheren, and it can be done by working WITHIN the existing system!

It's grubby, thankless work, true. But it's work that makes a heck of a lot more difference than pining for the revolution that's not coming....

-=Vel=-

[Jack_www]

Kidicious please answer this question cause I have not had any communist answer it for me or if they did they did not give a very good answer to the question.
How would you avoid a Soviet style government from froming? How would you get to your goal were everyone is equal, and no one is oppressed?

Please try to counter at least some of our arguments.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
On the other hand, there's no shortage of things that can be done right now (today!) to help your downtrodden bretheren, and it can be done by working WITHIN the existing system!

You're right on this account. I do what I can, and I hope the revolution will be very easy with violence and suffering held to a minimum.

[MichaeltheGreat]

We'll try to use the minimum force necessary to restrain you, but if you resist, we might have to break a few heads.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jack_www
Kidicious please answer this question cause I have not had any communist answer it for me or if they did they did not give a very good answer to the question.
How would you avoid a Soviet style government from froming? How would you get to your goal were everyone is equal, and no one is oppressed?

Please try to counter at least some of our arguments.

What type of situation are you imagining? That is, how did the revolution come about, and what were the important specifics?

[Velociryx]

Think about what you just said.

If I'm right on "that account" (that there's plenty that can be done to help the "downtrodden" by working within the existing system), then what's the point of, or the need for, the "revolution" at all?

Because unless you can answer Jack_WWW's question, (and assuming you get your way), there WILL BE a bloody revolution, and a portion of that blood will be on your hands.

-=Vel=-

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious


What type of situation are you imagining? That is, how did the revolution come about, and what were the important specifics?

You cant answer that? I want to know what steps you would take to stop the rise of dictator and the spression of peoples freedoms if you got the chance to change a country over to communism.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Velociryx
On the other hand, there's no shortage of things that can be done right now (today!) to help your downtrodden bretheren, and it can be done by working WITHIN the existing system!

It's grubby, thankless work, true. But it's work that makes a heck of a lot more difference than pining for the revolution that's not coming....

-=Vel=-

Uh, that's exactly what I do - work within the present system to help the downtrodden. And I disagree, it's anything but a thankless job if you value community more than money. The rewards are mostly non-pecuniary, but they are substantial.

The present system sucks. So I'll keep sticking my finger in the **** as a stop-gap measure while pushing for a more equitable system.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by The Templar


The present system sucks. So I'll keep sticking my finger in the **** as a stop-gap measure while pushing for a more equitable system.

Good grief D-Y-K-E refers to a wall that retains water. Can we get a smarter language filter around here!

You can't even mention **** Cheney or **** Armey or **** Nixon! Gimme a break!

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Jack_www
Kidicious please answer this question cause I have not had any communist answer it for me or if they did they did not give a very good answer to the question.
How would you avoid a Soviet style government from froming? How would you get to your goal were everyone is equal, and no one is oppressed?

Please try to counter at least some of our arguments.

I'll answer. Set up a bill of rights, a supreme court, and private rights of action to enjoin violations of rights. As long as there are effective checks and balances in the government the economic system will not lead to tyranny.

Capitalism is no guard against tyrrany - ask any Pinochet victim (oh, I guess you can't, they all disappeared). Capitalism is merely an economic system, if one part of the government is intent on oppressing you, and no other part can or will stop it, then capitalism will not save you. Rule of law, transparancy, and checks and ballances stop tyranny.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
If I'm right on "that account" (that there's plenty that can be done to help the "downtrodden" by working within the existing system), then what's the point of, or the need for, the "revolution" at all?

The key word is 'can.' 'Can' doesn't mean 'does.' There is only so much one person can do alone, but the whole system can do much more. For me it's natural to help poor people individually, and I know many, AND promote a new system that will be able to end their suffering much more than I could do individually. Why the hell would I support a system that causes their suffering?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Because unless you can answer Jack_WWW's question, (and assuming you get your way), there WILL BE a bloody revolution, and a portion of that blood will be on your hands.

-=Vel=-

The people's blood is already on your hands.

[Kidlicious]

btw, I'm not even going to open that other communism thread

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by The Templar


I'll answer. Set up a bill of rights, a supreme court, and private rights of action to enjoin violations of rights. As long as there are effective checks and balances in the government the economic system will not lead to tyranny.

So how does this non-tyranical governement go about telling me I know longer own my own company or my intellectual property - they're all forfeit to the state, for the benefit of "the workers" because I have too much, and now I'm a state employee for whatever the standard allowance is?

Because if they politely suggested, my response would be a polite "go **** yourselves."

You can't have the kind of radical redistribution of property, jobs, ownership of intangibles, etc., without either massive force to compel such changes (so much for rights, checks and balances and non-tyranny), or without assuming people will magically say "yay, we'd love to, just tell us what you want, comrade."

In the first case, you're back to your central, party-dominated thugocracy, if you assume the second, you're higher than the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland.