Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[JohnT]

You mean an argument where I boldly state false figures, ala you and Che?

You mean an argument based upon subjective opinion, one that starts "I believe...?"

You mean an argument where I have to ignore all the real world examples in order to make the assumptions work?

[Velociryx]

Hey John! As an experiment, we should try it....you know....see how the other side lives:

*Getting into Communist-Mode*

* You guys don't know what you're talking about! There's a secret SET of unemployment numbers that the government collects, but never mentions CLEARLY showing that the permanant unemployment rate is 14%!!!!

* Nobody cares about private property. In fact, the majority of people don't even LIKE it!

* Capitalism hasn't improved living conditions for it's people. Not one bit.

* Communism will work next time....trust us....don't ask us to tell you how or why it'll work, just....have faith!


*dropping out of communist mode*

Yeah....it IS kinna fun...

And btw, Communism (as has been pointed out by other communists in this thread) is an aethist theory. Why? Because with the state in control of everything, there's no room for religion. That party line becomes the equivalent of the religious mantra for the faithful, and the "heretics"....well, we all know what happens to them....

-=Vel=-

[JohnT]

The really interesting thing is how they don't come back (in regards to the "religion" argument) with something that is supported by the historical evidence:

Which is that any economic/political system will work regardless how (non)corrupt and (in)efficient it is, if the populace believes in it to a sufficient degree.

Capitalism can collapse... if the people lose their faith in it. Communism did collapse because people lost their faith in it. Religions die when people lose their faith, as do governments, economic systems, social structures, and hell, just about every type of social organization we've developed over the past millennia. This is one of those things that is just so freakin' self-evident that almost everybody misses it.

Except me, of course.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Any answers at all re: how you'll prevent the rise of a centralized, authoritarian government in your glorious revolution? Any notions on non-lethal ways of dealing with dissenters who complain about you taking their property?

I've got no problem with an authoritarian govt if it will allow us to crush our enemies.

[Velociryx]

::nodding::

Yes, I can see that.

And "your enemies" would include:

* Foriegn governments
* Your own citizens who dared to have a thought that ran counter to official party dogma
* Your own citizens who don't chant the official party dogma loudly or enthusiastically enough
* Your own citizens who dare to dream of a better life for themselves
* Anyone who threatens the security of your centralized, authoritarian position

And you wonder why communist governments have so many enemies....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, and so much for having learned the lessons of history, eh?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by JohnT
Religions die when people lose their faith, as do governments, economic systems, social structures, and hell, just about every type of social organization we've developed over the past millennia. This is one of those things that is just so freakin' self-evident that almost everybody misses it.

Except me, of course.

Let me tell you why communism is not going to die like some old religrion. Marx used science to show that the capitalists exploit the workers. Now you can deny that all you want, but you can not show that it's not true. Every time capitalism fails, and it fails every f'king day for billions of people, people blaim the exploitation of the working class. This will never go away. If you are expecting it to go away like some ancient religion you will be waiting forever.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Let me tell you why communism is not going to die like some old religrion.

If it ever manages to work on a national scale the rantings of the faithful might gain more crednece.

[Velociryx]

which is about how long it'll take you to implement your glorious revolution? *G*

I do not accept that the state is in a better position to know what is best for me than I do.

I do not accept that the group as a whole should be placed before the individual. The individual is what makes society great, NOT the other way around.

I do not accept that a system of government that has only one (crude) means of enforcing its will (ie - the barrel of a gun) truly has my best interests at heart.

I do not accept that the party bosses are benelovent, nor that their vision of the perfect tomorrow meshes with my own goals and desires.

I therefore utterly and completely reject the utopia you are trying to sell.

You are *terrified* of the power of the individual, and rightly so.

-=Vel=-

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yes, and socialiam marches on gloriously for billions of people.

Marx used pseudoscience to show that 19th century industrial laissez faire capitalism was nasty. Gee, he figured out something that just about everyone knew.

Trouble is, "capitalism" has evolved and is continuing to evolve, while Marxists thump their Good Book, awating their Revelation, the "historical inevitability" of the second coming, er, um, revolution.

The only addons to Marxist theory that have been put into practice are variations of Leninist notions of the Party and totalitarianism.

Of course, it's much easier to sit and ***** about the perceived injustices of the present system than it is to get involved in it and improve things. Just don't use up too much oxygen or take up too much space, y'all are wasting resources.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious
What is this thing about claiming that communism is a religion? Get a real argument.

Many of Marx's ideas and claims have very close analogs in Judaeo-Christian theology, and this "inevitable" revolution and the conditions it brings is right out of Revelations.

Besides, why should we get "real" arguments, you haven't yet? You talk about a dead system being able to magically do all sorts of things. At the same time, you insist without any basis or evidence on the "inevitable" (keep that faith in the Second Coming ) collapse of a live, evolving econimic system which is neutral to successful in its implementation for the whole range of people.

[Velociryx]

Great Scot, MtG! I just had an epiphany!

Biblical parallels....dead system....rises from the grave to restore order and bring peace and harmony to earth.

Marx = Jesus!



-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
You are *terrified* of the power of the individual, and rightly so.

-=Vel=-

If you mean that I'm afraid of capitalists, I say only when they are in power. Out of power they are just whiners.

[Velociryx]

Ummm....actually, no.

OTOH, a communist without his jackboots on is like a fish out of water.

'bout all he can do is stand around with his buddies complaining about how exploitive the system is.

Rather than whine about it, how 'bout get in there and "exploit" it right back? Oh....I forgot! You're already doing that! (and good luck with the accounting degree!)

-=Vel=-

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


I have to contradict on this point; a machine not profitable with a given level of salary can become profitable after a significant increase in the salaries costs. It is one of the reasons why ANY increase in the minimum salary rate will result in a net loss of jobs.

A classic, simple example of this is found between the US and Mexico. In the US, if you want to bust up some concrete or asphalt, you hire a guy with a jackhammer.

In Mexico, you do that if you're in a hurry (i.e. if there's some premium value in getting done as fast as possible), otherwise, you hire two or three guys with sledgehammers and shovels.

The jackhammer daily rental rate is about the same in each country, but the difference in labor costs is such that it's cheaper to go for the more labor intensive approach south of the border, while it's always cheaper to rent the equipment and have one guy do the job quickly on the US side.