So, can we finally all admit Bush & Co. lied?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: Re: So, can we finally all admit Bush & Co. lied?

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


WOW BORIS, I THINK U R ON TO SUMTHING. CUZ LIKE, SHRUB IS AN IDIOT AND EVERY1 KNOWS SADAM DIDN'T DO NE THING WRONG.

THE STATES SUX, IRAK ROXORZ!!!!!!!!!!!!

'bye, Zylka.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler

Saddam knew we were coming for him. He had a year to get rid of em all.

I don't doubt that Bush made up some of the WMD evidence though.

BTW, antiwars, I'll tell you where the WMDs are when you tell me how we're getting oil. You seemed so sure of that a few months ago.

Can we finally all admit that Boris & Co. lied?

Look at a map of ME oil reserves. Look for Iraq on that map. Right in the middle of about 2/3rds of the world's oil reserves. It's a "vital region" for the US (and the entire West) - and not because of its vast reserves of Sand. A little strategic control is a nice thing - unless you mess it up.

I didn't ask you to prove that there is oil in Iraq. I asked you to prove that we're getting any of it. Show me a single American oil tanker that has docked at Umm Qasr and I will concede.


Edit: Damn nested quotes.

[Jaguar]

Re: Re: Re: So, can we finally all admit Bush & Co. lied?

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


'bye, Zylka.

Who saw that one coming? Posts entirely consisting of sarcasm, capital letters, and badly spelled words...

[Az]

I see no reason to ban zylka. Indeed - power corrupts.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Zylka was already banned by Ming. He would have been back in three more days, but he just felt he had to "contribute" to this thread.

So his answer is to use his DL, JCC, but not bother in the slightest to disguise his style. JCC is gone, Zylka gets another week, until he creates a new DL, then it'll go on longer unless he gets the message.

[Pekka]

Azazel, yes, banning is like torture. I was just out for a week and everyday I was suffering as I could not reply or make a new thread. Inhumane!

[Az]

JCC was his DL, and wasn't closed until now?
That's what you get when your authorities are not accountable. Corruption and lack of proper governance.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

I didn't ask you to prove that there is oil in Iraq. I asked you to prove that we're getting any of it. Show me a single American oil tanker that has docked at Umm Qasr and I will concede.


Edit: Damn nested quotes.

It doesn't matter. Oil is a standardized, globally priced commodity. You don't buy "Iraqi" oil, or "American" oil. You buy it by grade, and pay for transportation. The only really significant point to where it comes from are what grades are available there, and how much does it cost to ship it? That's why a lot of US oil comes from Nigeria - it's cheaper to ship it due to the relatively shorter distance to US oil terminals on the east coast.

You don't have to buy it from any specific source to benefit from altering the global balance of supply and demand. 100% of that Iraqi oil could go to Russia and France, for all the US cares, because it displaces the oil Russia and France are getting from some other producer, so that oil ends up on the market, and the global price drops. See what I mean?

Go to NYMEX' website and look at oil futures. US Department of Energy and Platts (an industry publication) should have historical data you can dig up.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


It doesn't matter. Oil is a standardized, globally priced commodity. You don't buy "Iraqi" oil, or "American" oil. You buy it by grade, and pay for transportation. The only really significant point to where it comes from are what grades are available there, and how much does it cost to ship it? That's why a lot of US oil comes from Nigeria - it's cheaper to ship it due to the relatively shorter distance to US oil terminals on the east coast.

You don't have to buy it from any specific source to benefit from altering the global balance of supply and demand. 100% of that Iraqi oil could go to Russia and France, for all the US cares, because it displaces the oil Russia and France are getting from some other producer, so that oil ends up on the market, and the global price drops. See what I mean?

Go to NYMEX' website and look at oil futures. US Department of Energy and Platts (an industry publication) should have historical data you can dig up.

True. My post was badly phrased enough that you can jump on it.

How's this: prove that we have done anything post-war that has affected the international oil price to favor us.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
Show me a single American oil tanker that has docked at Umm Qasr and I will concede.

Not only oil in Iraq, a lot of oil around Iraq. As for tankers, as MtG said, irrelevant. I haven't subscribed to the simple oil-looting story - even I do not think the US political system has degenerated to that point yet. Also as I said earlier, oil is IMO just one reason among several.

"prove that we have done anything post-war that has affected the international oil price to favor us."

The expectations about Iraq's future affect the oil price, obviously. But that's also another issue. It's about secure and stable supplies within a reasonable price range, that's where most interests converge.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


Not only oil in Iraq, a lot of oil around Iraq. As for tankers, as MtG said, irrelevant. I haven't subscribed to the simple oil-looting story - even I do not think the US political system has degenerated to that point yet. Also as I said earlier, oil is IMO just one reason among several.

"prove that we have done anything post-war that has affected the international oil price to favor us."

The expectations about Iraq's future affect the oil price, obviously. But that's also another issue. It's about secure and stable supplies within a reasonable price range, that's where most interests converge.

Much better answer than "there's oil there." Now do you really think that the benifits gained are gonna offset the colossal price of the war?

[Q Classic]

well, unless we find the wmd, it'll look like being bush's friend is a terrible thing...
because if they really did lie... blair's going to die, powell's going to lose his credibility, rumsfeld and wolfowitz are going to look like gung-ho warmongers, and opinions will be worse than before.
and that's not something i want at all-- opinions are low enough already, and i don't want things to get worse.

we should, however, give them more time to find such weapons...although it'll be harder and harder to make that opinion tenable as suspected sites are cleared, as pressure to be overt builds...

i hope they find wmd.

[MichaeltheGreat]

We can't do that until we fix the oil fields. Once sanctions are gone and Iraqi oil fields are capable of significant production, OPEC will have to call a meeting to adjust production quotas. For the first time ever, the world's largest oil consumer will be seated at OPEC, with the option to either push for higher quotas or to outright disregard any production quotas OPEC tries to set. There are a lot of non-OPEC producers, and some OPEC members who ignore quotas, so OPEC control of the market is tenuous at best, but the US controlling or influencing another major producer will nearly decisively shift the balance of power in the marketplace in favor of oil consumers.

Simply having that ability is already affecting oil prices, and Iraq isn't even producing yet.

The US won't do anything radical, because it's both a producer and consumer. Our domestic marginal cost of production is fairly high compared to most producing nations, and a lot of our oil is heavier (intermediate and lower quality) than Arabian gulf oil, so a sharp drop in oil prices takes a lot of US oil out of the domestic market, once the market price gets too low compared to marginal cost of production. We sure don't want to jack the price up too high, because then you get a nice recession to cure that extra demand. It's just another Goldilocks problem, but we're now in position to decide just how warm the porridge should be for everyone.

[HershOstropoler]

JW:

If you
- manage to stabilise Iraq and make it a puppet swing producer (on which Saudi Arabia now has a sort of monopoly)
- stabilise the Saudi regime by withdrawing bases from there
- exert more influence in the region
- be able to intervene much more easily in case a major producer goes fundamentalist,

then it could be worth it in purely economic terms.

I don't share the premises and some of the effects, but at least that could be a plausible case.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
If you
- manage to stabilise Iraq and make it a puppet swing producer (on which Saudi Arabia now has a sort of monopoly)
- stabilise the Saudi regime by withdrawing bases from there
- exert more influence in the region
- be able to intervene much more easily in case a major producer goes fundamentalist,

then it could be worth it in purely economic terms.

I don't share the premises and some of the effects, but at least that could be a plausible case.

If you were Bush II, would you set back relations with France Germany and Russia, spend literally hundreds of billions of dollars, lose several dozen troops, and risk losing reelection just for a possible economic benefit that depends on 4 "ifs"? I wouldn't.