Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

So, can we finally all admit Bush & Co. lied?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • So, can we finally all admit Bush & Co. lied?



    Ex-Official: Evidence Distorted for War

    By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON - The Bush administration distorted intelligence and presented conjecture as evidence to justify a U.S. invasion of Iraq (news - web sites), according to a retired intelligence official who served during the months before the war.

    "What disturbs me deeply is what I think are the disingenuous statements made from the very top about what the intelligence did say," said Greg Thielmann, who retired last September. "The area of distortion was greatest in the nuclear field."

    Thielmann was director of the strategic, proliferation and military issues office in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research. His office was privy to classified intelligence gathered by the CIA (news - web sites) and other agencies about Iraq's chemical, biological and nuclear programs.

    In Thielmann's view, Iraq could have presented an immediate threat to U.S. security in two areas: Either it was about to make a nuclear weapon, or it was forming close operational ties with al-Qaida terrorists.

    Evidence was lacking for both, despite claims by President Bush (news - web sites) and others, Thielmann said in an interview this week. Suspicions were presented as fact, contrary arguments ignored, he said.

    The administration's prewar portrayal of Iraq's weapons capabilities has not been validated despite weeks of searching by military experts. Alleged stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons have not turned up, nor has significant evidence of a nuclear weapons program or links to the al-Qaida network.

    Bush has said administration assertions on Iraq will be verified in time. The CIA and other agencies have vigorously defended their prewar performances.

    CIA Director George Tenet, responding to similar criticism last week, said in a statement: "The integrity of our process was maintained throughout, and any suggestion to the contrary is simply wrong." On Friday, the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency acknowledged he had no hard evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons last fall but believed Iraq had a program in place to produce them.

    Also Friday, Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), R-Va., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites), said he was not prepared to place blame for any intelligence shortcomings until all information is in.

    "There are always times when a single sentence or a single report evokes a lot of concern and some doubt," Warner told reporters after a closed hearing of his committee. "But thus far, in my own personal assessment of this situation, the intelligence community has diligently and forthrightly and with integrity produced intelligence and submitted it to this administration and to the Congress of the United States."

    Thielmann suggested mistakes may have been made at points all along the chain from when intelligence is gathered, analyzed, presented to the president and then provided to the public.

    The evidence of a renewed nuclear program in Iraq was far more limited than the administration contended, he said.

    "When the administration did talk about specific evidence — it was basically declassified, sensitive information — it did it in a way that was also not entirely honest," Thielmann said.

    In his State of the Union address, Bush said, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

    The Africa claim rested on a purported letter or letters between officials in Iraq and Niger held by European intelligence agencies. The communications are now accepted as forged, and Thielmann said he believed the information on Africa was discounted months before Bush mentioned it.

    "I was very surprised to hear that be announced to the United States and the entire world," he said.

    Thielmann said he had presumed Iraq had supplies of chemical and probably biological weapons. He particularly expected U.S. forces to find caches of mustard agent or other chemical weapons left over from Saddam's old stockpiles.

    "We appear to have been wrong," he said. "I've been genuinely surprised at that."

    One example where officials took too far a leap from the facts, according to Thielmann: On Feb. 11, CIA Director Tenet told the Senate Intelligence Committee that Iraq "retains in violation of U.N. resolutions a small number of Scud missiles that it produced before the Gulf War (news - web sites)."

    Intelligence analysts supposed Iraq may have had some missiles because they couldn't account for all the Scuds it had before the first Gulf War, Thielmann said. They could have been destroyed, dismantled, miscounted or still somewhere in Saddam's inventory.

    Some critics have suggested that the White House and Pentagon (news - web sites) policy-makers pressured the CIA and military intelligence to come up with conclusions favorable to an attack-Iraq policy. The CIA and military have denied such charges. Thielmann said that generally he felt no such pressure.

    Although his office did not directly handle terrorism issues, Thielmann said he was similarly unconvinced of a strong link between al-Qaida and Saddam's government.

    Yet, the implication from Bush on down was that Saddam supported Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s network. Iraq and the Sept. 11 attacks frequently were mentioned in the same sentence, even though officials have no good evidence of any link between the two.
    This is just one of many stories now emerging that the Coalition seriously overplayed the situation to get support for the war. Given Blair's woes with his faulty dossier, and his conflicting stance now with Bush (Bush: oh, we've already found the evidence; Blair: we will find some evidence), the truth has become readily apparent:

    They lied to us.
    Tutto nel mondo è burla

  • #2
    It took you this long to figure it out?
    The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

    Comment


    • #3
      If the result of the war is good, I wouldn't be too concerned. I never cared for WoMD, anyway.
      urgh.NSFW

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
        It took you this long to figure it out?
        I've been saying it all along, but I want those with their heads up their asses to just admit their Bushy told fibs to get his war. That's all.
        Tutto nel mondo è burla

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Azazel
          If the result of the war is good, I wouldn't be too concerned. I never cared for WoMD, anyway.
          Ends do not justify the means, Az. Having an elected (well, sort-of!) government deliberately lie to its people to manipulate a war is NOT good.
          Tutto nel mondo è burla

          Comment


          • #6
            Azazel's a utilitarianist (IIRC). The ends always justify the means to them. Hedonic calculus, greatest good for the greatest number, quantitative happiness, and all that jazz. You can justify anything with utilitarianism if you think hard enough.
            Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
            -Richard Dawkins

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starchild
              You can justify anything with utilitarianism if you think hard enough.
              Ah, therein lies the fault of it!
              Tutto nel mondo è burla

              Comment


              • #8
                Don't forget that Little Johnny lied to the Aussies as well.
                Just like he did when he said "never ever" about the GST
                The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits

                Hydey the no-limits man.

                Comment


                • #9
                  No you can't. But yes, I am a utilitarian.

                  This "elected government lying to people" thing is a one of 3 things that I see as minuses to war. I'd much rather have the US government say " We're going to war, because we want to save a bunch of people", and actually believe it. Alas, there are things that prevent such a thing: The Government of the US not believing in it, Libertarians, International law, etc. etc. This is a compromise, which is relativly better to the "let's sit and do nothing" situation.

                  Another great minus is the "Carnage and Destruction" thing.

                  Also, remember that Utilitarianism is a consequentialist theory, so the actions taken would be weighed according to their results.
                  urgh.NSFW

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am also surprised that they couldn't find anything at all, I expected Saddam would have some stockpile somewhere.

                    I am not surprised that W. lied. I told you he has shifty eyes.
                    (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                    (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                    (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Double Penetration.
                      urgh.NSFW

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Azazel
                        Also, remember that Utilitarianism is a consequentialist theory, so the actions taken would be weighed according to their results.
                        That makes Utilitarianism utterly useless as a philosophy, as you don't (AFAIK) have the power of prescience.

                        So, should the end result of the Iraq war end up being a massive destabilization of the ME which results in the horrible deaths of millions, will it then suddenly and retroactively be a bad thing?
                        Tutto nel mondo è burla

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Azazel
                          If the result of the war is good, I wouldn't be too concerned. I never cared for WoMD, anyway.
                          so i guess hitler was good because without him where would israel be today?
                          "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
                          'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: So, can we finally all admit Bush & Co. lied?

                            Originally posted by Boris Godunov
                            (Bush: oh, we've already found the evidence; Blair: we will find some evidence), the truth has become readily apparent:

                            They lied to us.
                            Don't forget Rummies "They destroyed the evidence"
                            One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm surprised the Imrans, Ted Strikers, Neds, Slowws and the like seem not to know about this thread

                              I expect a reaction like this :
                              "Of course they have lied. We knew it all along. But there were right to do so, otherwise we might have not gone to war, and the Iraqi people would have not been liberated".
                              "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                              "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                              "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X