So, can we finally all admit Bush & Co. lied?

[HershOstropoler]

I used to think North is just a criminal, although one that got away on the cheap. What's to admire about him?

[chequita guevara]

Given that North helped destroy the only working socialist democracy, I can't say there's a special enough place reserved in hell for him. Nicaragua is now a basket case thanks to North and his buddies who decided that they knew better than Congress.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Nicaragua was a basket case before the Ortegas, it was a basket case courtesy of the Ortegas, and it'll be a basket case no matter what.

As far as "working socialist democracy" that's the best joke I've heard here in a long time. "Working" if you count on subsidies from the USSR, "socialist" if you call the usual Latinamerican communist revolutionary movements "socialist" (as opposed to Marxist-Leninist with a twist of banana), and "democracy" if you count being able to vote for the local party members approved by the Ortega brothers.

Roland - I have a soft spot for Capone and Gotti too, what can I say?

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Roland - I have a soft spot for Capone and Gotti too, what can I say?

I can understand that for Capone, maybe for Gotti, but North?

[Giancarlo]

Actually the Somoza regime in Nicaragua was doing an okay job keeping the counry afloat.. there was actually modest economic growth despite the corruption. When Ortega walked into Managua, everything got really ****ed up royally. There was staghyperflation.. you name it.. 3,000% inflation with 30% unemployment.. This had to do with literally retarded nationalization programmes which involved crushing the private sector.

Not one socialist movement in Latin America has done one good for any country. When they come to power things get screwed up, the economy screws up and they nationalize everything.. throwing the country into the gutter where it cannot get out of. I don't care what you commies say but your beliefs have caused some serious disfunction in many economies throughout Latin America and will always do so.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Vandal-1
It has been argued in this thread that since the effect of getting rid of Saddam is desirable,it does nt matter if the stated motives( i.e. Womd, oil ) for doing so are true or false.

Otherwise Bush might have to take the heat for dead troops or dead civilians. So they change their story.

1) Failure to prove our justification serves to support Arab-nationals claims that we are evil,and will result in increased resistence in occupied territories.
2)In a age of real nuclear rivalries it is unwise to engage in gun boat doctrine at the expense of alliances( there were other consequences besides the creation of a disempowered Iraq and there will be further crisis)

Nuclear rivalries? Just goes to show N. Korea learned its lesson. Get your nukes built before the US starts deploying. It also helps to have tons of artillery pointed at a major city of a US ally. Oh, and make friends with China, that helps too.

Yep, we really taught the world a lesson alright!

[Whaleboy]

Politicians lie, cheat, embezzle and exaggerate, as well as spin, dumb down, and expect (with reasonable evidence) people to act, behave and think like complete idiots, and to follow them off a cliff, thinking that they will thus fly!

Its what we expect from them. As much as I disapprove of US foreign policy and the war, as well as the prospect of more wars, as well as the PNAC and CIA, I think that we have all exhausted this particular thread topic.

Theres plenty of other stuff, larger stuff, we can talk about that the USA is doing erroneously, lets all leave this topic be. We went to war on a speculation, would be a reasonable dialectic, and if not, lets agree to disagree.

[Giancarlo]

Very well elijah.. yes I agree with you that politicans lie.. some embezzle and most exaggerate.

But I will agree to disagree with you about Iraq. That in my mind was no speculation.

[Whaleboy]

Well, we shall see if they do find weapons or not, until now, lets all hold judgement. I was talking more about the weight of "evidence" and the results thus far, would seem to suggest that they were speculating on the possibility, and at the time, probability of WMD in Iraq, I think few would disagree, but that is separate to the issue of whether or not there are any.

I still dont think that any of their arguments, including WMD would have justified the war, but that is again something that we shall have to see on, I'll post up a link to some of my articles on the subject when I get the time, but for now, lets hold fire on this issue, as time will surely tell whether or not there are weapons, and whether Bush +co was lying or not.

[TCO]

I don't think arguing a strong case is the same as lying. And you and Roland know it. The Bush team felt strongly that Saddam had WOMD based on his history and the imperfect intelligence. A lie would be if he didn't think there were WOMD and said there were.

[The Vagabond]

Of course, they lied. The irony is that it wasn't even necessary: this war could have been justified and sold to the public without all these lies to the American people, without Powell lying to the international community in his UN speech, etc.

[Giancarlo]

No they didn't lie. Powell was honest in that speech. If you believe the Iraqis on this issue, you have problems. It is like hearing that dumb***, Iraqi Ambassador to the UN, Al Douri (or whatever his name was) and believing him. I mean he claimed his country had no weapons of mass destruction.. as we all know this is a flat out lie. Don't even damn try to justify that he was telling the truth.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Boris: He exaggerated the truth .

Exaggeration of the truth is a variant of lie. In other words, it's a lie.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Fez
No they didn't lie. Powell was honest in that speech.

The only way for him to have been honest in that speech is that he was hugely misled himself (perhaps he was even under hypnosis ).

If you believe the Iraqis on this issue, you have problems.

I don't exactly believe the Iraqis. We are not talking about them now. We are discussing the American officials.

[Giancarlo]

Vagabond.. that is entirely your opinion. I don't care.. you want to be deluded about this issue? Fine. You want to call Powell a liar? Fine. You aren't even informed about it. How the hell do you know about the specifics? I don't even trust the media at all. I trust the government more than the media.. call it dumb or retarded... but at least it has more credibility then the media will ever have on this subject.