Why dosent God just pop up and say "Hi"

[juhani_kahvi]

If we are going to further debate about free will, I suggest we make a thread for it.

[Angelo Scotto]

Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
In a strictly scientific sense, we are all machines with no ability to control our behaviour, since the brain is an organ like any other organ, and works according to it's chemistry.

Not this old theory again...
scientifically speaking it was surpassed something as 70 years ago...
Our brain is NOT a machine in the classical sense, it simply can't be because consciousness can't be explained fully by classical mechanics.

Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
The human brain is PROGRAMMED to think and to analyze both the information it receives and the information that already exists

No, brain is NOT a computer, and mind is NOT a program.
Theoretical computer science gave us several interesting proofs of this.

[juhani_kahvi]

Our brain is NOT a machine in the classical sense, it simply can't be because consciousness can't be explained fully by classical mechanics.

I sure did not mean that the brain is a machine in the same manner as a car is. And you can forget about classical mechanics, too, since they are not very useful when examining brains. If people thought 70 years ago that the brain is a classical machine, then I'm sorry for them, but don't you dare to do a "straw man agrument" on me.

I wasn't speaking about machines in a physical manner. I ment the concept. Perhaps "program" would be a better word to describe the functioning of the brain.

I DO KNOW that brains do not fuction the same way as computers do. But on a deeper, logical level, it seems necessary that brain works SYSTEMATICALLY: it receives information, processes it according to it's structure and controls the body according to the processed information. The fact that human beings are conscious of their existence does not change this.

[Eepa]

Juhani, Your opinions sounds much what I remember from my philosophy course. Old theorys about what is possible and impossible.
Old theory went: If I was sitting at the moment then it was impossible for me to stand. There were no option that I could have been standing at that same moment.
New theory is that it could have been possible for me to stand instead of sitting.

Did you understood what I ment?

-Blessed be

[RGBVideo]

This thread is being threadjacked by Finnish people.

[juhani_kahvi]

There is not much for me to find from your theories, since you did not tell the reasons why such conclusions had been made.

[Eepa]

When I first read thread's question, I had no answer. But after reading yours I say that God has shown up lots of times for us, but we never listen, we never believe.
Jesus died for us and we didn't believe. What else could God do?

-Blessed be

[juhani_kahvi]

Jesus was not the first nor the last religious crackpot to get killed. How are we supposed to ignore the others?

It always bugs me that christians never consider the fact that there are other religions in the world, too, and they cannot be held as less true than christianity.

Also I cannot see how it could be my fault that I don't believe, since I've really tried my very best to form a conception of the world that I could trust into. And I am STILL open-minded and willing to develop that conception.

[Eepa]

Reasons? 'Cos the theory came to my mind when I read your replies. And because your answers sounds to me as stupid as those theories.
Is it or is it not a free will if I decided right now to go to kitchen take a knife and end my life? There is no reasen why I should do it, no explanations. It is against my religion, it is against my own believes, my ethic/moral what ever. I don't know the right word. But still I could do it, I have even think it sometimes.

[Eepa]

I think that most of the relionges are in the end the same. But I also think that this thread isn't a place for me do a novel about my believings and opinions about things...

[juhani_kahvi]

Originally posted by Eepa
Reasons? 'Cos the theory came to my mind when I read your replies. And because your answers sounds to me as stupid as those theories.

Well That Sounds Very Reasonable.

Originally posted by Eepa Is it or is it not a free will if I decided right now to go to kitchen take a knife and end my life? There is no reasen why I should do it, no explanations. It is against my religion, it is against my own believes, my ethic/moral what ever. I don't know the right word. But still I could do it, I have even think it sometimes.

Oh yes, you can do that without putting a dent in the principle I presented. If you ever do so, then sure there is a REASON for it. And if the reason is because you "choose" to do so, there is a REASON why you want to make that choice, even if you wouldn't know the reason yourself. Some guesses:
-depression
-insanity
or even perhaps
-the urge to prove your own free will

[juhani_kahvi]

I think that most of the relionges are in the end the same.

In fact they are essentially different. Buddhism doesn't even have gods. Besides, ANYBODY can make their own religion, and it is no lesser religion than the "mainstream" religions.

[Eepa]

Have I somewhere said that I am reasonable? Or that I am serious with this?...

Well I at least was depressed during winter, but that's not the point. If brains are even some sort of a machine and we have no controll of them then it sound logical to me that they are programmed to keep us alive, same as animals. Their instincts keeps them alive, they are made so. Suecide is no way reasonable, there is no reason why our brains would make such a decicion by themselves.

I said most of. And AFAIK even buddhism is about greater good, about achieve something better, something holy, pure or what ever they called it.

[juhani_kahvi]

There are many things in nature which seem stupid at first, like homosexuality (very common among mammals), but are explicable after some more thinking.
Perhaps you know that also lemmings (ahh the computer game ) make mass suicides, and that sick animals show no signs of fear when predators come around. I think suicide is related to these things, although the mental aspects might be different. It is nature's way of ejecting those who might be a threat or a burden to the rest of the society.
I admit that there are a lot of exceptions, ecspecially nowadays when depression is the usual burden of the unusually talented. Suicide, as any natural process, is vague and makes also errors. This may be because the mechanism of suicide is not entirely suitable in modern enviroment.

As for what you said about Buddhism, please see the last line I edited to my post.

By the way, if you intend to be unreasonable, please go away.

[Eepa]

Tjooh, maybe I just withdraw this conversation, now when I still can say that this has been fun. Before I lose my nerves.
Juhani, If you really want to continue this please do it in Finnish somewhere where it is possible.

Thank you for this and good night. *bows and withdraws*

-Blessed be

Unreasonable? No, I just wanted to discuss a little with you.