Why dosent God just pop up and say "Hi"

[juhani_kahvi]

In answer to the original question, He is here. You are just too blind to see Him.

So god created a bunch of people. And he created some of them to be too blind to see him. Then he sends the "too blind" ones to hell, because they were too blind to see him. Was it their fault?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
So god created a bunch of people. And he created some of them to be too blind to see him. Then he sends the "too blind" ones to hell, because they were too blind to see him. Was it their fault?

Absolutely! He created you in such a way as you have a choice. It is you who refuse to open your eyes?

Or do you have no free-will?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I thought it was theists who were obsessed with an invisible parent sitting on a cloud spanking his naughty kids?

Which religion is that then? I have never heard of it....

[juhani_kahvi]

But the option to choose is merely and illusion, if god is all-knowing and knows how things will end up anyway. If god foresees that I will go to hell, the whole struggle is pointless. God can predict it all. Either god is limited, or there is no free will.

I do not believe in a god. And I do not believe in free will either. In a strictly scientific sense, we are all machines with no ability to control our behaviour, since the brain is an organ like any other organ, and works according to it's chemistry.
IT DOES NOT MEAN that, for example, criminals should not be punished, or that life would be completely meaningless. It means, basically, that we do not have a soul of any kind.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Lorizael
The Bible isn't proof of God's existence, because there are other books out there that claim to be divinely inspired. And even if there weren't any other books making that claim, you would still have to prove that the Bible was in fact written by God.

An interesting point. If you will allow that all "holy books" = I am sure there is a word for it but I can't think of it right now - anyway, all "holy books" are INSPIRED by a divine being (or COULD have been inspired by a divine being) then that would kind of answer this thread.

God has popped up lots of time to explain himself, to gain trust etc. We just haven't been good at the obedience part.

HOWEVER, if you also allow that part of God's power comes from faith (Belief without proof? best definition I know of) then you have a good reason why God doesn't make this belief easy, straightforward, or irrefutable.

Personally, my own take on it is that there's eternal warfare between good and evil. Neither side is ever going to win - it's the battle that's the whole point, the struggle to better ourselves, and bring our own justice into the world.

This belief system doesn't require Gods and devils. The good and evil is within us all.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
...

I do not believe in a god. And I do not believe in free will either. In a strictly scientific sense, we are all machines with no ability to control our behaviour, since the brain is an organ like any other organ, and works according to it's chemistry.
IT DOES NOT MEAN that, for example, criminals should not be punished, or that life would be completely meaningless. It means, basically, that we do not have a soul of any kind.

There's a paradox in your argument.

If there is free will, then you choose to believe there isn't.

If there isn't free will, then you have been programmed to CHOOSE not to believe there isn't.

How do you explain this choice of yours without free will?

[juhani_kahvi]

Where's the paradox?
Being able to do or even THINK whatever we want is just an ILLUSION. My belief in free will, and all my other opinions and thoughts, are not my CHOICES, but a sum of 1) the input my enviroment provides me, and 2) my biological structure, which handles the information I receive.

[Cruddy]

So how can people change their mind without free will?

Are they programmed to be indecisive, or do their decisions change on the information available to them?

What about people who are stubborn, who will never change their minds?

I think there's a lot of people out there that your theory doesn't cover very well.

[juhani_kahvi]

People are able to change their minds because 1) they receive new information from their eviroment which suggests that their previous opinion was incorrect 2) they think hard and realize something new, or 3) their brain structure changes in a way which alters their opinions.
Of course 1 and 2 require thinking and processing of information. However, this is not free will. The human brain is PROGRAMMED to think and to analyze both the information it receives and the information that already exists. I know that it is possible to affect the way WHAT KIND OF information the brain analyzes, and HOW, but that is not free will. Instead, the selections are based on some other information that the brain has.
3 may sound exceptional and strange, but it is relevant in children.
Some people are stubborn, because they are either born that way, or they have developed a stubborn character because of the information they have received from their enviroment. It may also be a combination of both. Same goes for indecisive people. In some cases, these characters may also be caused by mental illness.

[chequita guevara]

Cuz it doesn't exist.

[Cruddy]

Here's my take on free will.

Most of the time, thought is occurring on a reaction, immediate level.

Deep thought or pondering is more than this. It requires focus of the mind on a particular problem, and other activity gets sidelined - we become "absent minded".

However, the fact that I can change from one mode to another kind of indicates I have free will over when this happens, doesn't it?

Maybe some people don't have it. Or maybe everybody has it and many choose not to use it.

Personally, the day I stop thinking about stuff and learning things, shoot me. I'm already dead.

[Zero]

Originally posted by juhani_kahvi


So god created a bunch of people. And he created some of them to be too blind to see him. Then he sends the "too blind" ones to hell, because they were too blind to see him. Was it their fault?

No but he's god so he can determine what is fair or not.

his house, his rules.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
But the option to choose is merely and illusion, if god is all-knowing and knows how things will end up anyway. If god foresees that I will go to hell, the whole struggle is pointless. God can predict it all. Either god is limited, or there is no free will.

Not true. Knowing all things is very different from controlling all things. If God controlled all things, then there wouldn't be any free will. But simply knowing all things does not negate free will.

[juhani_kahvi]

Cruddy: No, even that is not controlled by free will. People may change from "normal thought" to "deep thought" because, for example, 1) they are facing a difficult problem that has to be solved, 2) their enviroment does not offer anything interesting to do or 3) they have a mental illness, or 4) they are using drugs.
In situation 1 we first notice and recognize the presence and significance of a problem because our brain has the information that describes what 'problem' means, what is the current problem and how important it is to solve it.
The brain is rarely idle because of it's construction. That is why option 2 happens often. Of course you can choose to start thinking or stop thinking, but that is not free will. That is a decision based on the information you already have, and taking the information you have and your brain structure into account, no other decision could have been made.

After this 3 and 4 should be self-explanitory, if the principle has been understood.
Of course there are a lot more reasons why the brain might go to deep thought. These were just examples. However, all of the reasons are caused by brain functioning instead of some kind of a free will. Same goes for shifting back to "normal thought" from "deep thought".

Understanding this does not have anything to do with stopping to think or stopping to learn things.

[juhani_kahvi]

Not true. Knowing all things is very different from controlling all things. If God controlled all things, then there wouldn't be any free will.

Of course to a human it seems like we have free will. But the decision on who goes to hell and who doesn't is made by god, and from god's point of view.
Let me correct myself: It is incorrect to say that our stuggle (whatever struggle that is, doesn't matter actually) would be pointless if god knew everything. However, no matter how hard we try, our everything we do during and after our life is already known. It is a fact, a truth. How could it be changed?

But simply knowing all things does not negate free will.

God KNOWS what I'm going to do next - how COULD I do something else? It is impossible to do anything else than god KNOWS I will do.

Knowing and controlling are indeed different things.
The controller god AFFECTS the world that is under his/her control, making things exactly his/her way.
The knowing god sits passively and observes as everything goes as he originally planned.
Let's assume there is a god, and he created the world. If he is a controlling god, he alters the world while the process is running. If he is a knowing god, he just runs the process without altering it. That is the only difference. But neither of the alternatives offer free will to humans.