The State of the Israeli Democracy 2003

[Az]

You didn't refute anything, just brought up examples of transfers of Jewish populations that happened after my examples that I don't deny.

So those are transfers for you, as well?

I do. I think anyone should be able to move wherever they want to without an oppressive state stopping them.

As long as no level field conditions are created, worldwide, I think this would be... unhealthy.

gsmoove23: you better find me another source. Sources are abundant, I might as well quote gamla.co.il

[Ramo]

What do you mean by level field conditions?

[Az]

What do you mean by level field conditions?

Comparable economics, labor conditions, etc. Otherwise, you'll just suck out all of the talanted people into the rich countries, and then, it will create a perpetual and everwidening gap, since the poor countries won't be able to create a viable industry, since all of their skilled labour will be gone. ever that, or it will have to come at the expense of raping the enviroment completely.

[Ramo]

But that isn't what's happening. There's lots of remittances from the developed world to the developing world, and many people get an education/skills and go back to their original states. Further, with immigration restrictions, the rich and educated have a far greater shot at leaving the developing world; take out these restrictions and the less wealthy and educated would have a greater shot at moving away.

[Az]

I thought we were over this?

So, what will happen? EVERYONE will move out? so you support removing welfare, of course.

[Ramo]

Everyone won't move out. There are still plenty of economic and social constraints preventing that. But it'd be a lot easier for the non-elite to move out.

And we were over this. I ended the debate with a neat Economist quote which said that a really high proportion (something around 50% IIRC) of Indian immigrants to Silicon Valley regularly do business with companies in India, and almost as high a proportion plan to move back and start businesses eventually.

[Az]

that's a single case. I can bring you cases in which... well, it's not the case.

[Panag]

hi ,

you know whats always such a bloody irony , ......

while people from the other side of the world tell us what to do and they tell us what happens in our own land ( read order us ) we sit and listen to the news and hear about our own people being killed , .......

and yet there are those who shall tell us what to do , .....

easy for them when they sit on the other side of the planet , ......

why the suffering , why the pain , why are the innocent punished , ......

have a nice day

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel
the national union never gave that impression. It was the *ahem* freedom party.

btw, didn't you want to vote for the national union?

the herut party (past and present) is normally referred to in english as "herut".

[Ramo]

while people from the other side of the world tell us what to do and they tell us what happens in our own land ( read order us ) we sit and listen to the news and hear about our own people being killed , .......

Don't you live in Europe?

that's a single case. I can bring you cases in which... well, it's not the case.

That's not exactly a single case. The survey is over a broad sample, and further consider that their status is elite in our society. I think this statistic is representative of the possible economic boon free immigration has.

Do you have statistics contradicting this?

[lord of the mark]

there are IIUC two reasons that account for the above poll.

on the declining tendency to support full equality for arab citizens - i would say its the intifada with the terrorism that accompanies it, and the fact that some Israeli arabs have materially supported it, well many more provide moral support for it. whatever position on the dispute you hold, i doubt there are many western countries that would have done better in maintaining democratic norms in equivalent conditions. Personally I think thats a cost of not having an agreement with the Pals - whether the cost is worth it largely depends on how realistic it is to get an agreement.

On general attitudes toward democracy - the above, but also problems with the israeli political system, some of which are due to the political structure - proportional representation that leads to a debasing level of dealmaking. And to the political culture of both major parties - the russian "bolshevik" background of both labor and likud. the combination leads to a rough democratic politics that tends to turn off many.

add to that the presence of ultraorthodox Jews many of whom follow ideologies that explicitly place torah values above democratic values. The failure of the Israeli polity and culture to aggressively assimilate these people into Zionist and democratic values. The larger failure of traditional zionist ideology, especially labor zionist ideology.

In my own opinion the attempt to run Israel in a purely post-ideological fashion is as foolish as the attempt to pretend that traditional secular zionist ideologies still work. I think what is needed is a new attempt to root Jewish Israeli identity in a broad, pluralistic (including humanist) Judaism, that turns away from diaspora bashing. While this doesnt answer the problem of Israeli arabs in the state, it provides i think a sounder basis for approaching the problem, and for assimilating the different elements in Jewish society to democratic norms.