1975: Saigon surrenders

[PLATO]

Lancer, I think that is a good anaylasis. The Chinese have shown, historically, that they will cross their boarders and attack whenever a foriegn army approaches.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lancer
They got involved in a jungle war on the asian continent in support of post WW2 resurgent French imperialist policies.

That's not really true. The US had never brought significant help to France during the colonial war of 1946-1954. The communist forces had the upper hand once the French colonist was out, and the US went in to avoid communism to spread.

[Az]

Azazel, other than Vietnam, care to share some examples for discussion?

Afghanistan- By supporting the Mujahedeen vs. the secular government that gave rights to women.

The vast majority of the SU- while western republics, such as thew baltic states are doing better, all others, which are the vast majority of the population of the SU are doing significantly worse, with the complete collapse of physical and socio-economical infrastructure. In central Asia, your new allies are just as autocratic as the soviet government, but are weaker, and allow muslim extremists to gain ground.

Check out the UN's Human Developement index of the Soviet union and it's followers. it collapsed after the fall of the SU.

[SlowwHand]

**** the ****ing French, still and again.

I have to disagree though, on whether we should have been there or not.

As the "big dog", IMO when help is sought, helping should be considered.

Look at the pictures, one more time.

My only regret of my time of service was that I took absolutely no photographs until my day of discharge.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Azazel


You realize, of course that the vast majority of the people you "helped" are in much worse shape?

But that's ok. who cares about them, as long as America can reign supreme.

The people of Eastern Europe don't agree.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Azazel

Azazel, other than Vietnam, care to share some examples for discussion?

Afghanistan- By supporting the Mujahedeen vs. the secular government that gave rights to women.

The vast majority of the SU- while western republics, such as thew baltic states are doing better, all others, which are the vast majority of the population of the SU are doing significantly worse, with the complete collapse of physical and socio-economical infrastructure. In central Asia, your new allies are just as autocratic as the soviet government, but are weaker, and allow muslim extremists to gain ground.

Check out the UN's Human Developement index of the Soviet union and it's followers. it collapsed after the fall of the SU.

Okay Azazel, I'm following you. I thought that you were talking of places we had militarily intervened. I agree with your examples.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Spiffor

That's not really true. The US had never brought significant help to France during the colonial war of 1946-1954. The communist forces had the upper hand once the French colonist was out, and the US went in to avoid communism to spread.

"...once the French colonist was out" ???????

Spiffor, I thought that the reason France left is because the communist had the upper hand

[Az]

Sure, people live better in Poland, Eastern Germany ( somewhat, very high unemployment, but the despotic regime is gone ), Chechoslovakia, Hungary are better. But the people of Yugoslavia, Moldavia, the Ukraine and Belarus ( weird country, btw), Kazakhstan, Georgia, The vast Majority of Russia, Kirgistan, and others, beg to differ.

[Az]

Plato: I am not knowledgeable enough with the facts on the western hemisphere, where the majority of the US military interventions occured. I was born in the SU. I know what am I talking about there.

[SlowwHand]

Why are you citing former USSR remnants?

[Az]

aren't they in eastern europe as well ( beside a couple of central asian states I gave examples of )

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Azazel
Plato: I am not knowledgeable enough with the facts on the western hemisphere, where the majority of the US military interventions occured. I was born in the SU. I know what am I talking about there.

Azazel, this would make a good thread of its own.

[SlowwHand]

The U.S. never really got involved with aid to them; or am I mistaken?

[Az]

Well, GP starting raving about how great that intervention to help religious fundies against a secular government was, and one of his points was that it helped the US to bring down the SU. Yes, it was an international game achievement. But starting to run around with it, like it some sort of grand moral victory?

[Lancer]

The soviet economy was dieing before the breakup of the empire. Things have to get worse before they can get better. Look at how the rest of europe compares. Had the soviets never been there, eastern europe would be prosperous like the rest of europe. All the problems they are now having can be laid at the feet of the communist empire. It will take some time for eastern europe to get back on its feet.