1975: Saigon surrenders

[Hueij]

The collapse of Communism was all worth it.

Right. Too bad the Commies at Mylai didn't understand...

Picture edited by Ming...

We don't allow pictures of dead bodies... enough said.

[Lancer]

How such pics break my heart. People can be so brutal.

[Az]

Still worth it .

Relative gains, man, not absolute gains is the important thing here. The collapse of Communism was all worth it.

For the US, certainly it was worth it. I didn't say otherwise. But was it the better thing, ethically? nope.

[Lancer]

Azazel, not knowing anything makes that easier to say.

[uh Clem]

As to the Vietnamese liberation of Cambodia, all I can remember is that most Americans highly approved of what they did.

Not the US government, which was highly critical of Vietnam. "The Prussians of Asia" (cited earlier in this thread) was the term used, and also the title of a tut-tut NY Times editorial. And, no, it's usage wasn't ironic.

BTW, after the Khmer Rouge fell from power, the Carter & Reagan administrations were their de facto allies (along with China). There's been lots of indignant table-pounding over the years about KR atrocities, but the US government wasn't all that interested in war crimes prosecutions at the time.

[SlowwHand]

Calley got screwed, and that's all I have to say on that subject.

[Ned]

Originally posted by uh Clem


Not the US government, which was highly critical of Vietnam. "The Prussians of Asia" (cited earlier in this thread) was the term used, and also the title of a tut-tut NY Times editorial. And, no, it's usage wasn't ironic.

BTW, after the Khmer Rouge fell from power, the Carter & Reagan administrations were their de facto allies (along with China). There's been lots of indignant table-pounding over the years about KR atrocities, but the US government wasn't all that interested in war crimes prosecutions at the time.

Well, this is very interesting, isn't it? The Khmer Rouge are recognized by most as being one of the most abusive and murderous regimes ever to exist on this planet. Yet not one member of the Khmer Rouge régime has been tried for crimes against humanity. Why? Why, of course, it is the US's is fault.

It couldn't be the fault of Vietnam who controlled (most of) Cambodia for a dozen years. It couldn't be the fault of the UN who has had jurisdiction since '93. It has to be the fault of the United States. Why? Because we have shown no interest in war crimes trials.

Crap!

What does all shows that there is no government (excluding, perhaps, Belgium who likes to indict Western generals like Sharon and Franks while ingoring the brutal Khmer Rouge) that truly cares about punishing the Khmer Rouge. Many of the former régime are still in power in the current Communist government. I wouldn't hold my breath expecting any "war crimes" trials in this century.

Yes, a one-party communist state with liberty and justice for none are the benefits of UN nation-building and democratization.

And we should wish such benefits on Iraq?

[uh Clem]

It's a severe overstatement to say that it's the "fault" of the US (and let's make clear that we're talking about the administrations in power, not "the US," itself). But if the US had given the same attention to the KR that it gives to official enemies like Saddam (post-1991), it's possible that most of their top leadership would have been brought to trial.

This was bi-partisan. The Carter, Reagan, and Bush 41 administrations were accessories after the fact. Even the Clinton administration did not turn to this issue until Pol Pot was (literally) on his deathbed, and the KR had been out of power for 20 years.

Also, in its comments, the State Department was extremely careful to limit attention to what it has referred to as "the 1975-1979 period." That is, only during the years the KR ran the country, ignoring both the war that brought them to power and the covert help they had afterwards. Some people, after all, would find this embarrassing.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
Lancer, I think that is a good anaylasis. The Chinese have shown, historically, that they will cross their boarders and attack whenever a foriegn army approaches.

They sure attacked those Soviets who invaded northing China in 1945. I admite they weren't in a position to do much about it but never the less there are exceptions to your point.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Ned


This is more defeatist crap.

The only reason China invaded Korea is because Truman made it clear that he would not take the war to China if they did.

The same thing would have worked with the Vietnam war. You intervene, you die.

We couldn't have done anything to China whatever Truman said. What would you have proposed, escalate to full scale war, forgetting that China and Russia had a mutual defense pact. China was equally worried about escalation which was why they put nowhere near their full strengh into the field. Your ideas would have created WWIII.

[Dinner]

If MacAurthor had stopped 20 miles short of the Yalu river like the Commies had told him to then the war would have been over shortly after Inchon. It's because the UN forces charged right up to the Manchurian border that the Communists invaded.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Ned


You do? Then where is South Vietnam on the map?

hi ,

they still have a government in retreat on the philippines , .....

they did won the war in terms of numers , .....

have a nice day

[SlowwHand]

A government in exile isn't a country.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If MacAurthor had stopped 20 miles short of the Yalu river like the Commies had told him to then the war would have been over shortly after Inchon. It's because the UN forces charged right up to the Manchurian border that the Communists invaded.

hi ,

yeah right , ..... him and one mister mac namara where planning on using strontium to seal of the border , .....

the same for the dmz , .....

imagine they would have done it , .....

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
A government in exile isn't a country.

hi ,

who knows , they might go back one day , .....

have a nice day