Troll a sincere prolifer.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yup.

A very small oak tree.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Spiffor:

So the problem is not the child, but in the system. Why don't you folks spend some money to fix the system, rather than fixing the children to fit the world?

Because our government sucks and is too concerned by raising the military and police budget while cutting taxes to bother having an ambitious and well funded policy wrt parentality.
Had my friend a sure place in creche, a sufficient welfare to afford continuing her studies while living decently, and motherhood help (like a public service of doing the shopping, or at least subsidies to shop online, to let her have more time for her children, things like that), and certirudes this would continue, I wouldn't have convinced her to abort. I would have been buggered by the fact the child would be "fatherless" (i.e the mother and father weren't engaged for a long relationship).

[Ben Kenobi]

Because our government sucks and is too concerned by raising the military and police budget while cutting taxes to bother having an ambitious and well funded policy wrt parentality.

From a Frenchman no less. Must be really bad over there.

[Spiffor]

Let's just say I am not really a Chirac apologetist
Davout is on the OT today, he will confirm (edit : that I am not a Chirac apologetist ; I felt a misunderstanding here ). More objectively, it is not THAT bad : the government has stopped cutting taxes this year.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher
You haven't, but I know you're quite religious and I also know that it's most likely the basis for your beliefs even if you won't admit it...

In other words, ad hominem. Congrats.

[Jon Miller]

I mentioned Nazi's

why hasn't this thread ened npw

Jon Miller

[Spiffor]

Jon Miller : you have to insist more on the nazi comparison, make wrong points so that people react, and spam about one post out of 2 for the threadjack to happen, and the thread being dead

[Japher]

IMO any thread with "Troll" in it's title is open to spam, threadjacking, and.. well.. trolling.

All unborn babies are nazis or demons, take care of them before they take care of you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jon Miller:

You don't see me disagreeing with you

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
In other words, ad hominem. Congrats.

It's an important part of the argument.

The whole concept of defining what a person is comes from his religion, and he's simply stated it as fact for us in here. He hasn't stated it's come from religion, but he doesn't say where else it's come from -- it's just his idea.

The argument is based upon religion, whether you'd like to admit it or not, and it's a very valid subject. It's not an ad hominem. I'm not attacking his person, I'm just trying to understand how he defines what a person is.

Clearly, religion has something to do with it. After all, you'll find that, in general, the most rabid anti-choice( ) people are quite religious. Coincidence? I really don't think so.

Ad hominem it is not. You would only classify it as so if you don't want to address the importance religion plays in determining what constitutes a person. Which is rather convenient for you, I might add...

[Ben Kenobi]

Japher:

That's how the thread got started, with a troll, so I felt that I should honour the origin in the title.

All unborn babies are nazis or demons, take care of them before they take care of you.

But they're so cute! How can anything cute be evil?

[Elok]

It's hard to say, JM. Is "Nazi" the secret word?
Anyway, an acorn that has begun to germinate in the ground is an oak tree, whereas an acorn in one's hand is more comparable to a sperm cell or egg. When the seed is planted and begins to sprout underground, it sets a chain of events into motion that will end either with the destruction of the organism by chance or malice, or in the organism becoming a full-grown oak. There are no other possibilities. It will happen. Human beings are comparable. Abortion is one of the very few black-and-white issues, clouded only by cowardly euphemism and selfish pity-grabs. The continued existence of controversy over the issue is one of the big contributing factors in my waning faith in democracy.

That, and "The Jerry Springer Show." Did you ever stop to think that those people have the power to vote?

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Begging the question. You assume the unborn child is not a person, the very point at hand. If the unborn child is a person, then your argument falls apart.

My approach is simply not interested in that distinction. I don't believe science can help in this debate. As I said implied earlier - science can only offer arbitrary solutions.

It comes down to respect. Regardless of your scientific debate, you cannot respect a free will that is either does not exist yet, or if it does - cannot speak for itself. But you can respect the woman's - and you are not.

You will say, "But if it is alive, it should be respected equally with the woman." That isn't what this is about though. You are using that argument (which then falls down to arbitraty science, so you can draw the line where you please) to defend an outcome that is line with your own opinions.

If you skim history, you will find that regardless of their arguments, history does not favour those that disrespect others. And where there has been a constant disrepect, you will usually also not only bitter resentent, but outright hatred as well.

[Ben Kenobi]

Asher:

He hasn't stated it's come from religion, but he doesn't say where else it's come from -- it's just his idea.

I've clearly articulated science as the justification for my points and not religion.

Clearly, religion has something to do with it. After all, you'll find that, in general, the most rabid anti-choice( ) people are quite religious. Coincidence? I really don't think so.

Still ad hominem.

[yavoon]

overruled obiwan, goes to motive.

=D