Commitee of Strategic Planning

[Impaler[WrG]]

I'm firmly pro-Machinery, only if something total de-rails that plan would I get Pyrimid as the consolation prize.

Getting Bananas to build it for us

The only major dis-railing things that might happen is some kind of Banana-Storm alliance against us which looks incredibly unlikly. I'm also keen on getting some tech trading going before the onset of hostilites. Bananas might gift their techs to Storm just to spite us when we attack them or bargan to keep Storm from attacking their southern city. If we trade for most of thouse techs or even do a three way trade orgy that ends up giving all the teams all the techs then Bananas have no barganing chips left.

[binTravkin]

Getting Bananas to build it for us

Now, how could we arrange this and isn't it a move too risky to undertake?

[Mart]

Before I forget - an idea. there is an island south from Beijing (one can clearly see, that is an island- 1 tile) and west from our continent, there is either island or peninsula, as shown on the screenie.
How about making a work boat (30 h instead of 50 for galley) and checking both if they lead to other continents and faster contact with other civs for tech trading

who knows, maybe we could circumvent the globe with a work boat?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
25 can be achieved only after we make two more cottages at Beijing, and one more at some other city, as that needs 40 beaker total output (currently we're having half that).

I was thinking of 30 beakers research output. +6 for library, +1 for cottage, +3 for specialist. 38 turns -33% = more or less 25 turns.

If you're asking if we'll be able to complete Machinery in 25 turns, then my answer is yes, but let me remind you, that will be 50 turns from now, which means the Banana infrastructure will be far more advanced, borders greater and military stronger.

That counts even more for us, especially if we built the Pyramids.

Add the fact that they will be having contact with at least one civ which would be interested to trade them helpful military techs to get us in a long term war and add the fact that by that time Construction might well be around as a tech for trade, and it all turns not so good for us.

What does Construction matter?

The good thing about rushing bananas is that the war will be quick and decisive,

We're looking at war in 50 turns anyway, due to the need to build an army.

and after the war we will have all the time in the world to do our peaceful/not so peaceful buildup,

Not true. The Pyramids and Great Lighthouse might be gone by then.

+~50% production capacity

The same can be achieved much easier by the Pyramids.

[binTravkin]

Vel once did that, to his own surprise.
Maybe not circumvent, but find neighbours certainly - the map doesn't look like we've got a lot of space between everyone.

We wont be building the ship so soon, so I guess it better be galley - the later the year the more chance of barb galleys.


Btw, I found a battle simulator:

http://c4combat.narod.ru/c4c.htm

You only need to fill two fields:
'Unit 1 modified strength (from Combat Odds):'
'Unit 1 first strike roll:'

Im just not sure whether by 'roll' is meant that you have to roll the number yourself, or just enter the avg number of first strikes, which would be 1.5 for 1 strike and 1 strike chance I guess..

[Maniac]

Originally posted by mart7x5
Before I forget - an idea. there is an island south from Beijing (one can clearly see, that is an island- 1 tile) and west from our continent, there is either island or peninsula, as shown on the screenie.
How about making a work boat (30 h instead of 50 for galley) and checking both if they lead to other continents and faster contact with other civs for tech trading

who knows, maybe we could circumvent the globe with a work boat?

I agree about having exploration as a priority. Another reason why we shouldn't rush ourselves too early in only war production. There's still lots of other stuff to build first.

[binTravkin]

What does Construction matter?

Cats?
They're cheap and effective.

We're looking at war in 50 turns anyway, due to the need to build an army.

We're looking more like at 45 turns - 25 for GE plus 10 for quick military pump + 10 for movement (hope road helps).

You're saying that 50 + 5 for quick chukos + 15 for movement (border spread + more cities + defensive points on way) = 70 turns + 2times the lenght of war, due to sheer size of the enemy is not much more.

Not true. The Pyramids and Great Lighthouse might be gone by then.

Pyramids are likely to be gone in 25 turns, before we get GE, GL is not likely to be so soon, remember there are only 2 industrial civs (both of which are us and bananas) and only 3 who have coastal cities (2 of which are us and bananas)

The same can be achieved much easier by the Pyramids.

How?
+2 hapiness is hardly a reason, once bananas are dead, we'll have +2-4 from silver and gems in all cities, more later, once Calendar's here.
+3 labs per spec can't really be offset, but we aint gonna use tons of them, are we?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin

Cats?
They're cheap and effective.

But are they more effective than, say, Swordsmen against Choks?

We're looking more like at 45 turns - 25 for GE plus 10 for quick military pump + 10 for movement (hope road helps).

10 turns for quick military pump? How are you gonna produce 6 Choks, 2 swordsmen and 2 axemen in 10 turns?

Pyramids are likely to be gone in 25 turns, before we get GE

If Pyramids are gone, the choice for Machinery is obvious of course. But of course we should also consider the possibility they aren't gone yet.

How?
+2 hapiness is hardly a reason, once bananas are dead, we'll have +2-4 from silver and gems in all cities, more later, once Calendar's here.
+3 labs per spec can't really be offset, but we aint gonna use tons of them, are we?

In the long run Representation will become less valuable. However right now the effect would be big: working two extra mines in Beijing, +10% research output. Later, after we get the calendar and such, we can switch to that civic that gives +1 hammer per town way before we could get it via Democracy. Surely that will provide us more extra production than attacking the Bananas some time earlier could give us?
And of course there's also Police State.


Anyway, if we go for Machinery, I think we should already attack the Bananas after we have two Choks, just to pillage their lands and stop their economic progress. It's gonna take way too long to build six Choks first with our current limited production.

[binTravkin]

But are they more effective than, say, Swordsmen against Choks?

Against stacks, yes, and in an ordinary 1-2 side attack, stacking 3+ units is unavoidable.

10 turns for quick military pump? How are you gonna produce 6 Choks, 2 swordsmen and 2 axemen in 10 turns?

Beijing:
7hammers (cap + mine + forge)
chop on first turn + whip = 27hammer overflow
33/7 = 5
Total: 6 turns for 2 chukos, less with overflow from some previous build.

Tassagrad:
1 + 3 + 5 + 4 hammers = 13 * 1.25 = 16h
chop on turns 1 and 5:
1:20+16/60
2:36+16/60
3:52+16/60
4:8+16/60
5:24+20+16/60
6:0+16/60

Iron site:
1+3+5 hammers = 9h
2 chops on later turns (worker busy before)
(120 - 40)/9 = 10 turns at most


None of these predictions account for any overflows from previous build.

So with some planning and foresight, we can build 6 chukos at our 3 cities and have extra 4 turns time at 2 biggest, to build what we want, so with another chop, Tassagrad should be able to produce 2 swords: (80-20) /16 = 4, and Beijing, likewise with another chop 2 axes: (60-20)/10 (need to add another mine here, or end with whip, or have overflow) = 4

Besides we have one axe already and could build at least one sword axe, before GE.
I also planned as if we have 3 workers, but we might as well have 4 if Beijing indeed builds one and Tassagrad 2 as per the proposed plans, which translates in 20-60 more hammers during the mil buildup time, due to chopping.

In the long run Representation will become less valuable.

While the territory and resources gained from bananas will only grow in worth.

+10% research output.

+3 or 4 beakers is not +10%, especially if we're not planning to run that engineer after first GE, or not planning to run it 100% of the time.

Later, after we get the calendar and such, we can switch to that civic that gives +1 hammer per town way before we could get it via Democracy. Surely that will provide us more extra production than attacking the Bananas some time earlier could give us?

To my expierence the extra hammer is worth it only in late game as most of the time only few of the cities have town level cottages.
A single extra hapiness resource can give us more hammers than the Universal Suffrage civic up until late game, as long as we have the food to grow into that extra citizen or two (and if we dont we are likely to not have it for running enough cottages for the civic to pay off).

Anyway, if we go for Machinery, I think we should already attack the Bananas after we have two Choks, just to pillage their lands and stop their economic progress. It's gonna take way too long to build six Choks first with our current limited production.

10 turns is not that long, but yes, as long as we accompany the 2-3 chukos with 2-3 other troops, we can even attempt to storm their castle

[Chaos Theory]

The nanas will have enough time to whip as many archers as they can bear in the time it takes for us to reach their capital from their border, so actually if we need to stall next to their city, we can occupy/pillage high production tiles and prevent any further buildup on their part.

[binTravkin]

I agree about having exploration as a priority. Another reason why we shouldn't rush ourselves too early in only war production. There's still lots of other stuff to build first.

Anpther reason to end the wars quickly and turn to more peaceful matters afterwards

[N35t0r]

Ehm, if we get the Pyramids, I'd say that Hereditary Rule is a much better choice than representation ATM, since we can get much more happyness in exchange, and this early we're not bound to use many specialists.

With a couple of cheap warriors or archers, we can effectively multiply our production.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Against stacks, yes, and in an ordinary 1-2 side attack, stacking 3+ units is unavoidable.

True I guess. Then again, aren't 1.5 extra archers instead on the defense more likely to make use lose Choks?

So with some planning and foresight, we can build 6 chukos at our 3 cities and have extra 4 turns time at 2 biggest, to build what we want, so with another chop, Tassagrad should be able to produce 2 swords: (80-20) /16 = 4, and Beijing, likewise with another chop 2 axes: (60-20)/10 (need to add another mine here, or end with whip, or have overflow) = 4

Ah you're right. I forgot about our third city being productive pretty fast as well.

While the territory and resources gained from bananas will only grow in worth.

But that counts even more if we first let the Bananas fatten up a bit. Remember, I'm only suggesting to attack somewhat later.

Besides, there are other considerations:

1) This early, will we be able to support a ciy as far away as that southern Banana city?
2) The Gathering Storm says they're feeling cramped by the Banana. So by attacking the Bananas this early before we can make use of all this extra territory and settle it ourselves, we're actually doing the the Gathering Storm a huge favour. Especially since for us attacking the Bananas is a zero-sum operation on the short term: it would be equally expensive to just build some settlers ourselves instead of conquering Banana cities.

Also, by attacking later you say the war wouldn't be quick and decisive anymore. However do you think the war could ever be quick and decisive? Walking to their capital will take ten turns, and then walking again from their capital to their southern city will take another ten turns... Besides, what's the problem with the war not being quick? Our production is and surely will become even more bigger than the Bananas'. So a war of attrition is in our advantage, especially if just pillage or occupy their most productive tiles. We can play out the war on our terms.

+3 or 4 beakers is not +10%, especially if we're not planning to run that engineer after first GE, or not planning to run it 100% of the time.

You're right. IIRC beakers normally would be 26 or so. +3.75 is more like +15%. And why would we not run an Engineer? Having forges and engineers (the most valuable specialist!) this early is a huge advantage which we should exploit as much as possible IMO. Also consider the +2 engineer GPP of the Pyramids, which translates into +10 beakers, and which is one of the only ways to get more than 3 engineer GPP per city until factories. We could have another engineer 30 turns after the first, and hurry another tech, faster than we could research it the normal way. The Pyramids is very valuable, much more valuable than having a couple small and distant Banana cities a couple turns earlier.

A single extra hapiness resource can give us more hammers than the Universal Suffrage civic up until late game, as long as we have the food to grow into that extra citizen or two (and if we dont we are likely to not have it for running enough cottages for the civic to pay off).

But the situation is not an extra happiness resource or Universal Suffrage/Representation. It's extra happiness resources or extra happiness resources plus Universal Suffrage/Representation. Anyway, I have yet to face a situation where I have more happiness than I could use.

[N35t0r]

I have, it's called health


I like the pyramids as well. I believe it'll be better to wait a bit to get some more out of the nanas...

[binTravkin]

Also consider the +2 engineer GPP of the Pyramids, which translates into +10 beakers, and which is one of the only ways to get more than 3 engineer GPP per city until factories. We could have another engineer 30 turns after the first, and hurry another tech, faster than we could research it the normal way.

We'd get it in 40 turns.
200/(2+3) = 40

If it wasn't so late I would say the hell with it, take Pyramids now and Mach with next.

Also there's another problem - if we gonna build the Colossus, the engineer points will be mixed with merchant points.

An excerpt from merchant techs with unreachable/already owned techs dropped and a plan how to make machinery poppable by GM:

Currency <- research
Code of Laws <- block out by not having PriestHood
Sailing will have by that time
Monarchy <- block out by not having PriestHood/Monotheism
Civil Service <- block out by not having CoL
Mathematics will have by that time
Machinery

So, if we build:
Pyramids
Colossus
GL
We have
9 GPP/turn (4 merchant, 5 engineer)
which is 200/9 = 23 turns (+ some more while we finish GL)

Conclusion:
We could work that out by some little restrictions on tech trade (see the 'block' parts in GM techs above)


How are others on such a plan?
I think Maniac's got me convinced
Especially because we will then be able to trade tech with Bananas (but exclude PriestHood and Monotheism if they have it by then) before killing them.