Commitee of Strategic Planning

[binTravkin]

Whipping something and pouring the oveflow into the collossus seems a good strategy :-) (much better than whipping the collossus and pouring overflow into something else).

Yeah, while tricking around with the build list I noticed this - an otherwise small overflow gives huge investment in Colossus and that's actually only logical as pop cost per bundle for wonders is bigger..

I don't know how you got 79 ?

I added up 1 turns production, which is accumulated at the end of the whipping turn, so that if you have say 76/60 after whipping and +5h/turn production, the actual overflow is 21.
EDIT:I noticed you added it up too. Well, it means I adde two turns production - one in the whip turn and one in current
However, I might have mistaken and will recheck the numbers with the changed scheme (everything 1 turn down).

20-12-2006 21:43 | profile | mail | pm | search | buddy
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bt, I checked you accounting for Being. I have some comments:

=> first whip turn, we'll have 27+90 = 117 hammers (instead of 116)
=> so on turn 14, we'll have 70 overflow ((117+5)-90)*(2,75/1,25) instead of 68
=> on turn 4 however, I think we'll have only 66 overflow
((100+10)-80)*(2,75/1,25) instead of 79. I don't know how you got 79 ?

All-in-all, I think we'll need one turn more. Your first whip is very on-the-edge though, our current unhappiness will be gone either that turn or the turn after. I'm not sure about that...

Whips can be made one turn after the last unhapiness havent ended as long as it doesn't make you run out of happy cap, as you advance the turn, one of the unhappy citizens will disappear.

[PJayTycy]

anybody knows how the granary works exactly when just built ?

Here are two revised schemes, with one turn colossus first. The only difference between them is the amount of food stored in the granary and the evolution of our population. Hammer production is not influenced by our population, so the whipping points don't change. I only list both of them for completeness.

1	4 pop	Colossus	0/250	+16	5/28	+5	|	4 pop	5/28	+5
2	4 pop	Library		0/90	+5	10/28	+5	|	4 pop	10/28	+5
3	4 pop	Library		5/90	+5	15/28	+5	|	4 pop	15/28	+5
4	4 pop	Library		10/90	+5	20/28	+5	|	4 pop	20/28	+5
5	4 pop	Library		15/90	+5	25/28	+5	|	4 pop	25/28	+5
6	5 pop	Library		20/90	+5	12/30	+3	|	5 pop	16/30	+3	
7	5 pop	Colossus	16/250	+11	15/30	+3	|	5 pop	19/30	+3	Switch to Colossus
8-whip	5 pop	Library		25/90	(+90)	18/30	--	|	5 pop	22/30	--	Switch back to library, whip
8-end	3 pop	Colossus	27/250	+55+11	18/26	+3	|	3 pop	22/26	+3	Switch back to Colossus
9	3 pop	Colossus	93/250	+11	21/26	+3	|	3 pop	25/26	+3
10	3 pop	Colossus	104/250 +11	24/26	+3	|	4 pop	15/28	+5
11	4 pop	Colossus	115/250	+11	14/28	+5	|	4 pop	20/28	+5
12	4 pop	Colossus	126/250	+11	19/28	+5	|	4 pop	25/28	+5
13	4 pop	Colossus	137/250	+11	24/28	+5	|	5 pop	16/30	+3
14	5 pop	Colossus	148/250	+11	15/30	+3	|	5 pop	19/30	+3
15	5 pop	Colossus	159/250	+11	18/30	+3	|	5 pop	22/30	+3
16	5 pop	Colossus	170/250	+11	21/30	+3	|	5 pop	25/30	+3
17	5 pop	Worker		0/80	+10	24/30	--	|	5 pop	28/30	--
18-whip	5 pop	Worker		10/80	(+90)	24/30	--	|	5 pop	28/30	--
18-end	3 pop	Colossus	181/250 +44+11	24/26	+3	|	3 pop	28/26	+3
19	4 pop	Colossus	236/250	+11	14/28	+5	|	4 pop	18/28	+5
20	4 pop	Colossus	247/250 +11	19/28	+5	|	4 pop	23/28	+5	Colossus finished

[Maniac]

Where does everybody get the idea from workers cost 80 hammers?

[binTravkin]

www.civfanatics/civ4/info

I'll check ingame a bit later.

[binTravkin]

PJay - with 3 citizens we have a food surplus of 4 not 3:
2 + 5 + 3 - 3*2 = 10 - 6 = 4

Worker actually costs 60 which is worse than 80, as we have to fill it up between 23 and 29, which means, we have to run it 1 turn at 3 pop, whereas it would get +9 and 2 turns at 5 pop where it would reach 29 and could be whipped for 1 pop with 29h overflow.
We get a little more overflow for a little longer build.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by Maniac
Where does everybody get the idea from workers cost 80 hammers?

I reused bt's numbers

Originally posted by binTravkinPJay - with 3 citizens we have a food surplus of 4 not 3:
2 + 5 + 3 - 3*2 = 10 - 6 = 4

doh, I was thinking about assigning capital + engineer + rice, but in that case it would be +1 food instead of +3. I guess I forgot to feed the engineer

[binTravkin]

Important:

Once we finish Alphabet, and that will be in 12-13 turns, we will only have a sole tech to research what has not been arranged to trade or research later - Drama.
We will have to spend one turn researching it, and I think it's not bad, we can take it after Machinery as a source of hapiness (theatres) and prereq to Philosophy.

To minimize further delays we shold:
- check with GS, what is their current tech status ASAP, and push them to research Masonry and Polytheism so that they're ready for trading in 12 turns from now (in turn 72).
- check with Bananas what is their current tech status and if needed, persuade them to take Fishing->Sailing
- check with Vox, especially interested in Masonry and Polytheism, as back-up trade plan for those two techs.


The haste about those two techs is:
- they open the path to Monotheism and we will have exactly the time needed to get it before GE (some 7-8 turns)
- Masonry opens Pyramids
- Polytheism opens Literature


For that matter I would like to ask if everyone's okay with attempting Monotheism if Judaism is not taken by the time we arrive at the chance.
The other options would include:
- continuing with Drama (and perhaps finishing it before committing to Machinery, thus gaining an item to build for enhanced hapiness, with say 10% culture allocation)
- researching Masonry ourselves (if not gotten from GS or Vox)
- continuing with Literature (if Polytheism is at hand)

Monotheism seems the choice for me (if Judaism heven't been claimed) for the added benefit of +25% building production (and we can make a double-switch, both Representation and Organised Religion at one time) as Drama seems not top priority for now and Literature would be impractical before having marble hooked up.


We'd probably need to agree to all the points except the exclusion Vox point for now, in our tech trade agreement, just to get things rolling.
And again - these things need to be done ASAP, so we dont face delays or overresearching the same, just because we need it earlier than others can provide.

[binTravkin]

Actually we can leave out discussing the exact terms of the tech trae agreement for now, just get the teams committed to what we want from them..
It shouldn't be hard to persuade GS (which is much more important than persuading Bananas), if we mention that the alternative is to trade the same techs from Vox or research them ourselves.

[Chaos Theory]

We shouldn't issue threats unless we intend to follow through on them, and quickly. If we want to alienate GS to help Vox, we must be prepared for a variety of responses from GS which could be unpleasant for us.

[binTravkin]

GS was pushing us in the same way, with Alphabet, though it seemed pretty pathetic to me, so I don't really see a problem saying that we will be forced to obtain a tech from Vox or research it ourselves, if GS fails to provide it by the time we have Alphabet.
At first, of course, we shouldn't mention such possibility, just say that we want to have those techs ASAP.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Worker actually costs 60 which is worse than 80, as we have to fill it up between 23 and 29, which means, we have to run it 1 turn at 3 pop, whereas it would get +9 and 2 turns at 5 pop where it would reach 29 and could be whipped for 1 pop with 29h overflow.
We get a little more overflow for a little longer build.

If, with 5 pop (1 unhappy) we work capital + rice + floodplain + 4 hammer mine + engineer, we get +12 production for the worker:
food = 2+5+3+0+0-8=2
ham = 2+0+0+4+2=8
10*1.25 = 12.5 --> +12

So, two turns of this configuration gives us 24/60, which is in the optimal whip zone (23-29).

Here is an updated production sheme for Being, to have an effective whipping and fast collosus completion (10 turns from now)

10	4 pop	Colossus	104/250 +11	18/28	+5
11	4 pop	Colossus	115/250	+11	23/28	+5
12	5 pop	Colossus	126/250	+11	14/30	+3
13	5 pop	Colossus	137/250	+11	17/30	+3
14	5 pop	Colossus	148/250	+11	20/30	+3
15	5 pop	Colossus	159/250	+11	23/30	+3
16-a	5 pop	Colossus	170/250 ---	26/30	--
16-b	5 pop	Worker		0/60	+12	26/30	-- (switch colossus -> worker and one citizen from floodplain to +4hammer mountain)
17	5 pop	Worker		12/60	+12	26/30	--
18-a	5 pop	Worker		24/60	(+60)	26/30	-- (whip +60 hammers with 1 pop)
18-b	4 pop	Worker		84/60	+11	26/28	-- (put mining citizen back on second floodplain)
19	4 pop	Colossus	170/250	+77+11	26/28	+5
20	5 pop	Colossus	258/250	+11	17/30	+3   (colossus finished)

[binTravkin]

We're 63/100 done with the engineer, right?
That leaves 13 turns to go.
The plan was to finish Colossus right the turn after GE is done, if we stick to it, we have 3 excess turns to build something.
However, I'd more favour leaving the cottages to be worked primarily.
I'll make the build plan for that case in a little time.

[binTravkin]

Some thread necromancy here

I reviewed PJay's proposed roading plan for attack on Bananas and I think at least the road to capital can be made shorter.

The pro's are:
- shorter run for our chukos (1 road tile) and we can actually run right from the road into their territory (the run will take 4 turns from Tassagrad to their borders).
- ends on a hilltop - let's us survey their territory before attack
- 2 less worker-turns for building it (with 12 worker turns being total from our territory to their).

We can then extend it south, as we attack Banana capital.
I actually hope Bananas have built some road to south for us already

[binTravkin]

Here's the attack on Banana cap prediction assumed we have 4 chukos (Xian + Tassagrad), a sword (produced in Beijing right after settler) and 2 axes (already in service):

chukonu	vs	archer	loses at 38.3% chance	0 strenght left
chukonu	vs	archer	wins at 70.7% chance	2.9/6 left
chukonu	vs	archer	wins at 76.0% chance	3.0/6 left
chukonu	vs	archer	wins at 82.2% chance	3.1/6 left
axe	vs	archer	wins at 71.0% chance	2.4/5 left
axe	vs	archer	wins at 71.0% chance	2.4/5 left
sword	vs	axe	wins at 66.2% chance	2.8/6 left

Total:
Banana lost 5 archers and ax
AC lost 1 chukonu

This is not the worst case scenario, but certainly can be called 'bad case scenario' as it accounts for all of the defenders having 5 turn fortify bonus and most if not all of the defenders being archers (the toughest unit to crack which Banana can get).
In reality it will more be like between 2 or 3 turns average, or even less, if they don't watch our graphs closely and I doubt more than half of the troops will be archers.

Attacking after this first round can be risky as the defenders will be slowly recharging their strength. At least we should see that the surviving units ratio is no less than 2:1 in our favour, which implies them having no more than 9 units at the time we attack (or 8 + one produced right in next turn).

[PJayTycy]

These are, as far as I can guess, the 3 only valid possibilities for the 3rd banana city. Our scout should be able to tell which one of the 3 exactly it is.



I propose to move our scout onto the hill where BT suggests to enter Banana territory, which is the tile between the red and the blue culture expansions. Once we're there, we should know for sure which site they settled.

I hope they've done blue, because that would be the easiest to capture after the capital. Red would suck. Green, meh.