Cloak & Dagger

[Sullla]

I'd like to thank sunrise and Donovan for capturing so many enemy cities and cutting down on my workload here...

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 173

Imperio 458EP (+0 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Lakamha (size 8) = 66 shields (+45)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Library, Bank, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Uxmal (size 13) = 54 shields (+27)
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 13) = 40 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum), Forge
Calakmul (size 11) = 32 shields (+16)
Infrastructure: Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple, Lighthouse

Oxhuitza is gone. Imperio has four cities remaining...

Not much else happening here. Imperio is building towards more units, but they desperately need to log into the game and start doing some whipping. While it won't save Calakmul, it will make us expend some more blood and sweat to take the place.


PAL 318EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Theocracy
Thebes (size 14) = 93 shields (+33)
Infrastructure: Palace, Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Christian Temple, Christian Monastery, Aqueduct, Mausoleum, Parthenon, Sankore
Memphis (size 13) = 47 shields (+47)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 10) = 65 shields (+11)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Bank, Confucian Shrine
Elephantine (size 9) = 19 shields (+1)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University
Alexandria (size 7) = 15 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 7) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Byblos (size 4) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 5) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 3) = 22 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Barracks
Eisenburg (size 2) = 48 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: none
Our EP against PAL: 385
Needed for cheapest City Visibility (Alexandria): 501

The Warning isn't warning anyone about anything no more! Major congrats to Banana.

Pi-Ramesses, Byblos, and Navajo all finished their unit whips from last turn. They'll get major overflow into something of PAL's choice this turn, and it will show up in the stats next turn. Nothing too noteworthy here aside from the capital going down earlier in the turn. (One of the coolest things about the C&D numbers is knowing exactly what purpose PAL has assigned to each city. You can really track the infrastructure vs. military ones by watching what they produce.)

[Sullla]

Updated for the current turn. Pretty quiet overall.

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 174

Imperio 458EP (+0 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Lakamha (size 8) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Library, Bank, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Uxmal (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 13) = 50 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum), Forge

Calakmul is gone. Imperio has three cities remaining...

Lakamha and Uxmal both finished builds; we can see that Uxmal trained a musketman. I suspect Lakamha finished a military build as well. There's just not much to say here, until Imperio starts playing their turn more promptly. At least we know that any emergency whip at Uxmal will cost the double-population penalty.


PAL 326EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Theocracy
Thebes (size 14) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Palace, Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Christian Temple, Christian Monastery, Aqueduct, Mausoleum, Parthenon, Sankore
Memphis (size 13) = 85 shields (+38)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 10) = 76 shields (+11)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Bank, Confucian Shrine
Elephantine (size 10) = 20 shields (+1)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University
Alexandria (size 7) = 22 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 7) = 51 shields (+51)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Byblos (size 5) = 6 shields (+6)
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 5) = 30 shields (+30)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 4) = 29 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Barracks
Eisenburg (size 1) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Christian Temple
Our EP against PAL: 402
Needed for cheapest City Visibility (Alexandria): 505

Thebes finished some kind of military unit costing 100 shields (cannon or cuirassier); this is bad news for Banana, but good news for us. We want PAL focusing on military, not infrastructure. You can also see the huge whip overflow getting added to last turn's production at Pi-Ramesses and Navajo. Eisenburg finishes a whipped Christian Temple for culture; oh, this is why it's nice to be Creative and not have to waste an early build like that!

We should start gaining some city visibility on PAL in about 8 turns, if the current rates hold on each side.

[Swiss Pauli]

Eisenburg's temple is half price and gives two free AP hammers, so it's not a wasted build (sadly).

[Sullla]

I know it's half price, but why would it give two free shields? PAL isn't the AP resident...

[darrelljs]

You just need to have the same state religion as the AP to gain the hammers bonus.

Darrell

[ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF]

You don't even need that. The only requirement is that you musn't be considered a villain for defying a resolution.

[timmy827]

The BTS crew should get some sort of award for the most confusing game mechanic ever created That being said, I believe ZPV is right.

[Sullla]

Is that honestly the way the game mechanic works?! Good Lord... I don't even want to know what kind of crack Alex and John were smoking when they put that into the expanion.

Anyone else think that Beyond the Sword would be a much better game if the Apostolic Palace, and all of the cheezy stuff associated with it, were simply removed entirely?

[Krill]

Don't blame us for that...blame the people who decided to implement it aka Solver, Alexman and Trip.

[T-hawk]

ZPV and Timmy have it right. All buildings of the AP religion get the hammer bonus. Your state religion is irrelevant. The only way to lose the AP hammers is to defy a resolution or have the AP expire. The AP religion's shrine itself also gets the hammers, making it an automatic choice over settling a great prophet (though that's usually the case anyway.)

AP religion temples are the automatic first build after granary for a Spiritual civ, and AP monasteries close to that for most non-Ind civs. After 30 turns, the monastery is free, almost always sooner than the payback from a forge.

I don't mind the mechanic. It makes monasteries and temples useful and interesting buildings, instead of fringe SSC items and empty junk just to qualify for culture cathedrals. It creates a decent set of tradeoffs: build the AP yourself for a guarantee, or gamble on freeloading from someone building it with a compatible religion, or ignore it entirely for other priorities?

[Zeviz]

Does loss of extra production for defying a resolution ever wear off?

[ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF]

Only if you vote for a resolution which passes - in which case it wears off immediately.

[sunrise089]

I don't mind the mechanic. It makes monasteries and temples useful and interesting buildings, instead of fringe SSC items and empty junk just to qualify for culture cathedrals.

I rarely ever feel qualified in challenging T-Hawk, but that sounds ridiculous to me. My understanding was that monasteries had a better beaker payoff than either Universities or Observatories.

@Krill - I just blame Gogf for everything.

@Sullla - Agree, but why stop there? How about an option to auto-win if you discover Apollo and everyone else is 30 turns behind? How about an option to turn on the Warlords AI and have game not be easy? I like the game settings options in BTS and the new buildings and units OK, but all of the "new features" are pretty meh to me. Of course we had this discussion 2 years ago...

[T-hawk]

I rarely ever feel qualified in challenging T-Hawk, but that sounds ridiculous to me. My understanding was that monasteries had a better beaker payoff than either Universities or Observatories.

Better than a university, same as an observatory. 60 hammers for 10% = 150 hammers for 25%. But the problem is they expire. So they're useless towards the space race or military tech beyond rifles. And that expiration happens just as the cottage economy is getting into high gear with Free Speech, Printing Press, and Emancipation. And you usually want Sci Method early because of the goodies beyond it in Biology and the typical space race beeline to Superconductor.

They're worthwhile in the Bureau capital and maybe a couple cities that got an early start on growing towns towards Free Speech, but any later city is better off building beaker multipliers that don't expire. But the AP hammer bonus makes them free after 30 turns (24 with Org Rel) so they become much more attractive.

Suppose Pink Dot built a monastery, at 20 base commerce and 50% science slider, and suppose we have 100 turns to Sci Meth (we don't.) It would pay back 20 x 0.5 x 0.1 x 100 = 50 beakers in its lifetime. Research would have been a better build.

@Sullla - Agree, but why stop there? How about an option to auto-win if you discover Apollo and everyone else is 30 turns behind?

Not sure what the argument is there - what does a shortcut to space victory have to do with the AP? But I agree both that the AP is usually more annoying and capricious than a useful strategic part of the game (but not because of the hammer bonus), and that Civ could use a domination victory condition based on tech dominance too rather than land area.

[sunrise089]

...
Not sure what the argument is there - what does a shortcut to space victory have to do with the AP? But I agree both that the AP is usually more annoying and capricious than a useful strategic part of the game (but not because of the hammer bonus), and that Civ could use a domination victory condition based on tech dominance too rather than land area.

Sorry T-Hawk, I should have explained that I was just sharing another new BTS feature ("improved" space race) that I think makes the game worse.