Cloak & Dagger

[Sullla]

An update on Soldier count:



We can now see the two maulings that Templars took at our hands quite clearly, first at Jericho and then the slaughter outside Pink. However, they surprisingly still have some military power left over. Their overall number is about 247k, which breaks down like this:

15k pop
76k tech
18k improvements/wonders

Minus another 12k for the crossbow/axe pair we killed (which won't get added to the Demographics screen until next turn).

We get about 125k left over for units. More than I expected... There was 41k worth of Soldier points in Constantinople when we looked in there on T150, so that's accounts for more of the total, but we still have about 80k worth of unknown units. A formidable force. Be careful while attacking.

In contrast, Imperio has added virtually nothing in the last dozen turns; their minimal increases also factor in a 10k boost from Gunpowder. By my count they have only built 20k worth of units in the last dozen turns - essentially, they still have their one super-stack and that's it. Good to know.

PAL has been steadily gaining in power for a while now. Soon they will either finish off Rabbits, or sneak-attack Banana. Guess we'll have to wait and see what develops there...

[sooooo]

PAL just gained 44 points on the interturn and built no wonders. I assume that means they finished liberalism? Any idea what they could have taken?

[Swiss Pauli]

I checked in game and Liberalism is still available. They did complete Chemistry though, so that's some of the points. They whipped heavily last turn, so maybe that's where the rest of the points came from (pop regrowth, Nat Wonder?, troops?).

[sooooo]

It would be nice to know what PAL keeps on whipping, is it possible to reopen the cloak and dagger department just to post a table of PAL and Imperio's invested hammers? No need for population count or score tracking.

Also, assuming PAL take astronomy from liberalism, it would be very useful to know when and where frigates are being produced from.

[Sullla]

Frigates? They're gonna need to acquire some iron before they can build those. (Go Rabbits!)

[MyOtherCar]

I think we can expect a visit from PAL as soon as they discovered Astronomy: that will mean (edit: no) frigates and galleons at our doors. It could be they are whipping an invasion army for us.

Just read Sullla's post: they have no iron (yet).

[ruff_hi]

They might not be able to build frigates, but privateers don't require iron.

[Sullla]

Soldier Count update time for Imperio!



Imperio Soldier Points = 426k

Population: 61 pop points = 30k

Technology: Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry (2k each) = 8k
Wheel, Alphabet, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction (4k each) = 20k
Mathematics, Archery (6k each) = 12k
Guilds, Bronze Working, Machinery (8k each) = 24k
Horseback Riding, Iron Working (10k each) = 20k
Gunpowder = 12k
Total = 96k

City Improvements/Wonders
Mutal: Barracks, Forge = 5k
Lakamha: Barracks = 3k
Chichen Itza: Barracks = 3k
Uxmal: Barracks, Statue of Zeus = 7k
Mayapan: Barracks = 3k
Calakmul: Barracks = 3k
Oxhuitza: nothing
Total = 24k

This leaves 276k Soldier points for units.

Trireme near Cape Town = 3k

Chichen Itza garrison:
1 longbow = 6k

Oxhuitza garrison (T157):
empty

Mutal garrison (T158):
1 musket = 9k
1 longbow = 6k
Total = 15k

Mayapan garrison (T158):
1 holkan = 4k

Lakamha garrison (T158):
1 holkan (Mutalac) = 4k

Defensive stack, on gold tile NW-N of Lakamha (T158):
1 maceman = 9k
1 pikeman (Chichen) = 6k
5 longbows (6k each) = 30k
Total = 45k

Uber stack, one tile SE of Lakamha (T158):
2 knights (10k each) = 20k
6 macemen (9k each) = 54k
3 elephants (8k each) = 24k
2 horse archers (6k each) = 12k
2 pikemen (6k each) = 12k
11 cats (5k each) = 55k
Total = 177k

Soldier Count Total = 254k
Missing = 22k (virtually nothing)

* * * * * * * * * *

OK, so what does this all mean? I'd summarize it in three points, all of them good:

1) We know the makeup of Imperio's entire military. The missing 22k is too small to make any real difference.
2) We know the location of Imperio's entire military. This cannot be over-stated.
3) Based on points #1 and #2, we should be able to work out a strategic plan to eviscerate Imperio.

I'll leave it up to sunrise to analyze this a little more in-depth, but my short commentary is that Imperio is very heavy on cats and longbows, deficient in Mounted units. There is also not a lot of units staying home to guard the border with RB, so if we can get the first cat strike on their uber-stack and flank it with our horse archers/knights, we can potentially wipe out virtually their entire standing military in one blow. I know that we've been talking about this for a while, but it's awesome to see the mathematical proof that our strategy is sound.

I would like to get in the habit of tracking the foreign builds again (we could use the info for PAL/Imperio), but that will have to wait until tomorrow to start.

[MyOtherCar]

First off: As always I'm impressed by our Cloak & Dagger department!

Shouldn't we warn team Bananas about the military buildup of PAL? They and/or Rabbits are the likely recipients of whatever PAL is mustering. I'd like to see them survive a little longer to keep PAL occupied.

[sooooo]

When it comes to PAL, banana have a better C&D department than we do since they can see into all of their cities. They can see every unit they build.

[MyOtherCar]

Maybe so..oooo, but we could ask them what they intend to do about it.

[Sullla]

As promised, a return to the tracking of foreign builds. I would like to do this each turn, since it gives us a lot of insight into what each team is doing. However, to save time, I'm only tracking Imperio and PAL, because Rabbits/Templars will soon be eliminated, and Banana is our ally for the forseeable future.

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 159

Imperio 446EP
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Mutal (size 11) = 42 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Forge, Library, Stonehenge, Oracle, The Sistine Chapel
Lakamha (size 9) = 108 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Library, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Chichen Itza (size 8) = 51 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Monument, Lighthouse, Barracks, Christian Monastery
Uxmal (size 13) = 68 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum)
Calakmul (size 8) = 34 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Monument, Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple
Oxhuitza (size 2) = 45 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Monument, Granary

Imperio has mostly been working on buildings recently, as their power has not gone up much at all. Lakamha seems to be on more infrastructure at the moment, while other cities have churned out some city improvements that were rather unnecessary (ball courts and especially the Islamic temple at Calakmul, a very poor use of production for one happy face). They probably believe that they have bought security for the indefinite future thanks to their treaty with us, and thus see no need to build more units. A good sign.

PAL 208EP
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Theocracy
The Warning (size 9) = 44 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Academy, Oxford University
Memphis (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 9) = 147 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Confucian Shrine
Alexandria (size 7) = 66 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 9) = 17 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Giza (size 9) = 22 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Library, University
Byblos (size 3) = 58 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 5) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 2) = 156 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge
Cities without visibility: Thebes, Elephantine (contain Mausoleum and Parthenon)

PAL hasn't added many buildings at all in the last seven turns since mostly_harmless last posted the C&D builds. I think we know why: every mature city has been hard at work churning out military units. Someone is assuredly in for the big drop over on the eastern continent: Rabbits first, then Banana. Since the PAL/Banana NAP runs out in about 5 turns, I'd hardly say that the military buildup is coincidental...

[Sullla]

Update for the current turn:

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 160

Imperio 449EP (+3 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Mutal (size 11) = 63 shields (+21)
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Forge, Library, Stonehenge, Oracle, The Sistine Chapel
Lakamha (size 9) = 131 shields (+23)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Library, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Chichen Itza (size 8) = 59 shields (+8)
Infrastructure: Granary, Monument, Lighthouse, Barracks, Christian Monastery
Uxmal (size 13) = 82 shields (+14)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum)
Calakmul (size 9) = 44 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Monument, Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple
Oxhuitza (size 2) = 47 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: Monument, Granary

Total Production = 78 shields

Nothing finishes, and Mayapan continues to sit with nothing in the box as Imperio sleeps at the wheel. It certainly looks like their civ is in the middle of a big infrastructure kick.

PAL 214EP (+6 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Theocracy
The Warning (size 10) = 63 shields (+19)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Academy, Oxford University
Memphis (size 13) = 51 shields (+51)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 9) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Confucian Shrine
Alexandria (size 7) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 9) = 61 shields (+44)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Giza (size 10) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Library, University
Byblos (size 4) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 5) = 37 shields (+37)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 2) = N/A, zero shields invested
bInfrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse
Cities without visibility: Thebes, Elephantine (contain Mausoleum and Parthenon)

Heliopolis finishes a build in the 150-160 shield range: a new grocer. Alexandria finishes a 70-80 shield build: not a building, so probably either a mace or musket. Alexandria seems to be a military pump for them. Giza finished something cheap: some kind of inexpensive unit. Byblos finished something in the 60-70 shield range: my guess is another mace. Akhetaten finishes a courthouse, with some generous overflow from a whip or chop.

PAL is doing what we expect, a mixture of units and infrastructure. Only a matter of time until they run over one of their neighbors.

[Sullla]

Update for the current turn:

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 161

Imperio 452EP (+3 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Mutal (size 11) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Forge, Library, Stonehenge, Oracle, The Sistine Chapel
Lakamha (size 9) = 154 shields (+23)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Library, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Chichen Itza (size 8) = 67 shields (+8)
Infrastructure: Granary, Monument, Lighthouse, Barracks, Christian Monastery
Uxmal (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum)
Calakmul (size 9) = 54 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Monument, Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple
Oxhuitza (size 2) = 49 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: Monument, Granary

Mutal finishes a build that cost about 80 shields - this is assuredly one of the new muskets we see moving south. Uxmal finishes a 90-shield build: a very belated library! Mayapan sits on zero shields in the box for the third straight turn; probably Imperio can't make up their mind and keep swapping builds there. No pop changes this turn.


PAL 222EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Theocracy
The Warning (size 10) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Christian Temple, Academy, Oxford University
Memphis (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 10) = 26 shields (+26)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Confucian Shrine
Alexandria (size 7) = 15 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 9) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Giza (size 10) = 10 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Library, University
Byblos (size 4) = 20 shields (+20)
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 6) = 42 shields (+5)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 3) = 42 shields (+42)
bInfrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse
Cities without visibility: Thebes, Elephantine (contain Mausoleum and Parthenon)

The Warning finishes an 80-shield build; a new Christian Temple. I guess it makes sense because they're Spiritual and get cheap temples, but still - didn't they have enough happiness there already? (If we ever do get control of the eastern half of our continent, a sneak-attack on the Warning to raze it would be a devastating blow against PAL. They have tons of infrastructure in there!) Memphis finishes an unknown unit - this is their Heroic Epic city, much like our Cape Town. Could be many different things. Pi-Ramesses looks to finish a unit of some kind in the ~80 shield range. PAL gained 3 pop this turn in the cities we can see.

Pretty quiet turn overall. PAL continues to do a mixture of units and infrastructure, while Imperio builds what looks like a wonder in Lakamha. The near future could be an excellent time to surprise them.

[sunrise089]

I'm surprised PAL's power is shooting up as fast as it is considering they are just half-heartily building units. I asked Banana and he said PAL isn't drafting anything, and they don't appear to be slaving that much either. Anyone know how much of their power rise is from tech and pop?