Cloak & Dagger

[Sullla]

I know...

The one good thing is that there's a distinct chance that Mutal is building a cuirassier currently, which would be much better for us (no defensive bonuses). But yes, we have to plan on 3 units being in place in Mutal. As such, I think we will want to upgrade all four knights to cuirassiers ourselves, to give the maximum chance of success.

[sunrise089]

Mutal having 76 hammers invested probably means we should sim the city having 3 units in place (unfortunately). It will be able to finish its current build, then slave out a longbow/musket on T169.

Well surely it will slave out a pike, right?

Anyways, I'll try to sim it out. I suspect that with a pair of Curaissars we will still win.

[Sullla]

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 168

Imperio 458EP (+0 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Mutal (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Forge, Library, Stonehenge, Oracle, The Sistine Chapel
Lakamha (size 10) = 40 shields (+40)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Library, Bank, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Chichen Itza (size 8) = 53 shields (+13)
Infrastructure: Granary, Monument, Lighthouse, Barracks, Christian Monastery, Library
Uxmal (size 15) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 15) = 102 shields (+12)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum)
Calakmul (size 10) = 25 shields (+25)
Infrastructure: Monument, Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple, Lighthouse
Oxhuitza (size 3) = 30 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Monument, Granary, Library
Damascus (size 4) = 2t resistance
Infrastructure: Monument, Granary, Apostolic Palace (Christianity)

Mutal finished a build that was either 80, 90, or 100 shields. (Last turn: 73 shields, +26 shields/turn.) There's really no way to tell what this is, unfortunately. My best guess is a cuirassier: Imperio started this build the same turn they discovered Military Tradition, and it's a logical build since Imperio didn't know how quickly Templars would collapse. Worst-case scenario is a musket build, which fortifies in Mutal (although I took this into account with our sims, and we can still capture the city even if that's the case.)

Uxmal also worries me. Unfortunately, it finishes what looks like an 80 shield build (Last turn: 66 shields, +18 shields/turn) which can only be a musket. If headed south, the unit will be passing near to Mutal, and would be able to move in there and reinforce when we attack. There's really nothing we can do about this, however. Cross our fingers and hope that the unit won't be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


PAL 278EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Theocracy
The Warning (size 10) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Christian Temple, Bank, Academy, Oxford University
Memphis (size 13) = 94 shields (+38)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 11) = 132 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Confucian Shrine
Elephantine (size 8) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University
Alexandria (size 7) = 40 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 8) = 34 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Giza (size 9) = 8 shields (-40)
Infrastructure: Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Library, University, Confucian Monastery, Confucian Temple
Byblos (size 5) = 32 shields (+6)
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 4) = 57 shields (+42)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 5) = 75 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Barracks
Eisenburg (size 1) = 38 shields (+34)
Infrastructure: none
Cities without visibility: Thebes (contain Mausoleum, Parthenon, and Sankore)

The Warning sits with nothing in the box for the second straight turn - not sure what's happening there. Elephantine was double-whipped last turn, so it probably built a cannon or cuirassier. Giza swaps production and Eisenburg gets a forest chop. PAL doesn't seem to be constructing many buildings right now - they're all units currently.

[Sullla]

Soldier count update for Imperio:



Imperio Soldier Points = 471k

Population: 78 pop points = 39k

Technology: Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry (2k each) = 8k
Wheel, Alphabet, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction (4k each) = 20k
Mathematics, Chemistry, Archery (6k each) = 18k
Guilds, Bronze Working, Machinery (8k each) = 24k
Horseback Riding, Iron Working (10k each) = 20k
Gunpowder = 12k
Total = 102k

City Improvements/Wonders
Mutal: Barracks, Forge = 5k
Lakamha: Barracks = 3k
Chichen Itza: Barracks = 3k
Uxmal: Barracks, Statue of Zeus = 7k
Mayapan: Barracks = 3k
Calakmul: Barracks = 3k
Oxhuitza: nothing
Damascus: nothing
Total = 24k

This leaves 306k Soldier points for units.

Trireme (location unknown) = 3k

Caraval (somewhere over by New World) = 3k

Chichen Itza garrison:
1 longbow = 6k

Oxhuitza garrison (T157):
empty

Mutal garrison (T164):
1 longbow = 6k

Mayapan garrison (T165):
1 holkan = 4k

Lakamha garrison (T165):
1 holkan (Mutalac) = 4k

Calakmul garrison (T166):
2 longbows (6k each) = 12k

Damascus garrison (T168):
1 musket = 9k
2 maces (9k each) = 18k
1 longbow = 6k
2 pikes (6k each) = 12k
Total = 45k

Uber stack, one tile NW of Acre (T168):
3 knights (10k each) = 30k
1 musket = 9k
6 macemen (9k each) = 54k
3 elephants (8k each) = 24k
1 pikemen = 6k
3 longbows (6k each) = 18k
9 cats (5k each) = 45k
Total = 186k

Exploring Knight (T168)
1 knight = 10k

Soldier Count Total = 279k
Missing = 27k (relatively little)

* * * * *

Something like 3-4 units are left unaccounted for. We can state with certainty that there are no Imperio armies out in the fog that we don't know about. What we can't say is precisely where those missing ~30k of units are located; there could be a larger garrison than we expect at Mutal, for example. Just impossible to know until we move in there and see next turn. Overall though, we can be pretty confident that if the Imperio armed forces in the south are wiped out, they'll have to build most of a replacement army from scratch.

[Sullla]

I'll try to sort through the massive bushwacking of Imperio units sometime in the next day or so, and get an updated count of their military. Long story short, I believe we've accounted for all but 10-15k of their units, so there shouldn't be any major surprises lurking in the fog. Now the update for the current turn:

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 169

Imperio 458EP (+0 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Mutal (size 13) = 32 shields (+32)
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Forge, Library, Stonehenge, Oracle, The Sistine Chapel
Lakamha (size 10) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Library, Bank, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Uxmal (size 15) = 22 shields (+22)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 16) = 117 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum)
Calakmul (size 10) = 47 shields (+22)
Infrastructure: Monument, Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple, Lighthouse
Oxhuitza (size 3) = 37 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Monument, Granary, Library
Acre (size 3) = 3t resistance
Infrastructure: Monument

Lakamha built something cheap, in the 50-60 shield range. Normally I would guess catapult, but I think the more logical build here is a longbow for one of the cities Imperio was expecting to receive from us. Whoops!


PAL 286EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Theocracy
The Warning (size 10) = 124 shields (+124)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Christian Temple, Bank, Academy, Oxford University
Memphis (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 11) = 147 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Confucian Shrine
Elephantine (size 8) = 15 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University
Alexandria (size 7) = 55 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 8) = 41 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Byblos (size 4) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 5) = 62 shields (+5)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 4) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Barracks
Eisenburg (size 1) = 40 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: none
Cities without visibility: Thebes (contain Mausoleum, Parthenon, and Sankore)

Giza and its Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Library, University, Confucian Monastery and Confucian Temple is gone! Thanks, Donovan!

I think The Warning has to be producing a building with a doubled resource, because otherwise they shouldn't be able to pull that kind of production, even with overflow benefit. Memphis churns out another 100 shield unit, either a cannon or cuirassier. Byblos and Akhetaten both whip out another unit, no idea what. PAL is abusing their little cities pretty badly; no infrastructure, just whip camps for more units. We'll see how well that holds up in the long term, depending on how long this game lasts.

* * * * *

This post will likely be updated after Imperio responds on their turn. Where and how they whip will tell us a lot about what units are coming down the pipeline.

[ruff_hi]

This post will likely be updated after Imperio responds on their turn. Where and how they whip will tell us a lot about what units are coming down the pipeline.

If they play their turn ...

Ok Krill thank you! I see that here you play different.

For us (in spanish forum) all of pacts signed are unbreakable and I was playing during these 2 month with this point of view. If here the diplomacy have not any importance for me is not necessary send messages or make pacts. Another time I will not waste time.

If I had played konwing these conditions RB never will captured an imperio city It is the problem

Now I'm alone making imperio's movements and managing imperio's diplomacy, but in this conditions this game are not interesting for me. I was making a big effort to play the turns regulary and a lot of times I've lost the turn and for that sometime we can do all thing that we want to do (like attack in a concret turn or be quick with diplomcy answers) but never we make nothing or lie deliberate like RB has made.

Sorry I don't want to waste more time in a game where diplomacy has not importance.

Thank you for all and sorry for all the problems that imperio causes to other teams.

[Sullla]

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 170

First we decipher the score changes that took place on CivStats:

1144 -> 1198 (PAL techs: Printing Press [24] + Steel [30])
1198 -> 1222 (Banana tech, Astronomy)
1222 -> 1205 (four-pop whip)
1205 -> 1192 (three-pop whip)
1192 -> 1184 (two-pop whip)
1184 -> 1171 (three-pop whip)

1171 -> 1179 (two pop grow back: Mutal and Lakamha)

Mutal -1 pop (double whip +1)
Lakamha -2 pop (triple whip +1)
Uxmal -3 pop
Mayapan -4 pop


Imperio 458EP (+0 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Mutal (size 12) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Forge, Library, Stonehenge, Oracle, The Sistine Chapel
Lakamha (size 8) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Library, Bank, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Uxmal (size 12) = 22 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 12) = 117 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum)
Calakmul (size 10) = 12 shields (-35)
Infrastructure: Monument, Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple, Lighthouse
Oxhuitza (size 3) = 1 shield (-36)
Infrastructure: Monument, Granary, Library
Acre (size 3) = 2t resistance
Infrastructure: Monument

Trying to make sense of all this... Mutal double-whipped a pike for a defender, then a pop grew back interturn. Lakamha whipped something, difficult to say what because there were no shields in the box last turn. Uxmal and Mayapan did enormous whips, 3 and 4 pop respectively, but they overflowed right back into their previous builds, so it's again hard to say what they produced. Calakmul and Oxhuitza swapped builds, but did not whip, probably because neither is in immediate danger. If Imperio is smart, they likely whipped a couple of cannon before they lose access to iron.

As for the Imperio units running around... Mutalac the pike was a holkan defending in Lakamha; it moved NW two tiles and then upgraded. For the stack NE of Mutal, the musket was produced 2t ago in Uxmal, and stayed in the city for a turn. (We are extremely lucky it didn't move south immediately, or we'd have 4 defenders in Mutal and essentially no chance of capturing it!) The longbow was the defender in Uxmal itself. Lakan the holkan was the defender in Mayapan. And the warrior was the defender in Oxhuitza. So all of those cities were emptied out, and new units whipped in their place last turn. But they are all going to be slightly too late to reach Mutal this turn!

We are going to have to be careful at Chichen Itza, however, because our Mounted stack is going to be drastically weakened even if the attack succeeds, and those units will be able to move on our frontier afterwards.

Will do PAL's info later, not as critical right now.

[Sullla]

Catching up with PAL's info for this turn:

PAL 294EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Theocracy
The Warning (size 10) = 22 shields (-102)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Christian Temple, Bank, Academy, Oxford University
Memphis (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 9) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Bank, Confucian Shrine
Elephantine (size 9) = 16 shields (+1)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University
Alexandria (size 7) = 70 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 9) = 48 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Byblos (size 5) = 15 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 5) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 4) = 26 shields (+26)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Barracks
Eisenburg (size 1) = 42 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: none
Cities without visibility: Thebes (contain Mausoleum, Parthenon, and Sankore)

The Warning, I don't know what happened there. Maybe a swapped build of some kind? Memphis sits on zero shields in the box for a second turn, likely churned out a cheap military unit of some kind. Heliopolis finished a Bank, and apparently whipped it to get maximum overflow into a unit. Navajo builds a unit that cost ~70 shields, unless there was a forest chop taking that to 100 for a cannon/cuirassier? No clue.

Interesting final note for Imperio: Uxmal, not Lakamha, has become the Imperio capital city! This is great news for us, as Imperio remains in Bureaucracy civic and doesn't have a lot of production in Uxmal. Lakamha is by far their best city, and getting the extra production in there would not have been good for us.

[Sullla]

Update for the current turn, with some interesting info:

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 171

Imperio 458EP (+0 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Lakamha (size 8) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Library, Bank, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Uxmal (size 12) = 76 shields (+54)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 12) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum), Forge
Calakmul (size 10) = 69 shields (+57)
Infrastructure: Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple, Lighthouse
Oxhuitza (size 3) = 2 shields (+1)
Infrastructure: Granary, Library

Wow, the Imperio column is getting pretty small here, eh? Deleting all those Monuments from their infrastructure list was fun too!

OK, this is a little complicated because of the huge whipping Imperio did on T169, and then their team missing T170 and failing to play. This really benefitted us, because some of the cities that whipped out an emergency unit - like Lakamha - then sat with zero shields in the box and produced nothing last turn, wasting a turn of production. Others whipped out units on T170, then had the overflow go back into their infrastructure projects on T171, because there was no hand at the wheel to redirect it into more units. Here's what I believe the exact breakdown was:

Lakamha: no production last turn
Uxmal: whip overflow into infrastructure
Mayapan: whip overflow completes Forge
Calakmul: whip overflow into infrastructure
Oxhuitza: not whipped, appears to be on an AI-assigned max growth configuration (1 shields/turn)

Needless to say, this is not the setup you want in the middle of a desperate struggle to the death!

PAL 302EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Theocracy
The Warning (size 10) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Christian Temple, Bank, Academy, Oxford University
Memphis (size 13) = 42 shields (+42)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 9) = 44 shields (+44)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Bank, Confucian Shrine
Elephantine (size 9) = 17 shields (+1)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University
Alexandria (size 7) = 85 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 9) = 55 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Byblos (size 5) = 21 shields (+6)
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 6) = 16 shields (+16)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 3) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Barracks
Eisenburg (size 1) = 44 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: none
Cities without visibility: Thebes (contain Mausoleum, Parthenon, and Sankore)

Don't know what The Warning built this turn, but it's good news because it makes it less likely The Warning will complete a unit at the start of next turn and wreck Banana's plans. Akhetaten whipped out another unit, as one of PAL's endless whipping camps. (Still not sure this will work long term, but definitely effective at the moment.) Mostly, however, this was a quiet turn as PAL recovered from some intensive military whips.

The Master Blacksmith event adds +1 shield/turn to the Forge. Hopefully, PAL will enjoy that benefit for exactly one turn in The Warning...

[Sullla]

Update for the current turn:

Foreign Builds from C&D: Turn 172

Imperio 458EP (+0 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion
Lakamha (size 8) = 21 shields (+21)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Library, Bank, Islamic shrine, Notre Dame
Uxmal (size 13) = 27 shields (-49)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Ball Court (Colosseum), Lighthouse, Library, Statue of Zeus
Mayapan (size 12) = 30 shields (+30)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Lighthouse, Ball Court (Colosseum), Forge
Calakmul (size 10) = 16 shields (-53)
Infrastructure: Library, Barracks, Granary, Islamic Temple, Lighthouse
Oxhuitza (size 2) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Library

Uxmal and Calakmul finally were swapped off their infrastructure last turn (as I predicted in the C&D stats!) In fact, all four of Imperio's core cities are just starting military builds. We'll have to wait and see if any of them get whipped this turn; Imperio certainly should be whipping at Calakmul. Oxhuitza double-whipped something last turn, from size 2 to 4, but I'll be darned if I know what it was! It wasn't a building, and if it was a unit, it was moved illegally at the start of their last turn. Real mystery here.

Oxhuitza cannot be whipped this turn, since it has nothing in the box and is only size 2. Even a single pop whip would require 2 pop with the no-shield penalty, and that makes it impossible.

PAL 310EP (+8 EP)
Current Civics: Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Free Market, Theocracy
The Warning (size 10) = 124 shields (+124)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery, Christian Monastery, Grocer, University, Christian Temple, Bank, Academy, Oxford University
Thebes (size 14) = 60 shields (-)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Christian Temple, Christian Monastery, Aqueduct, Mausoleum, Parthenon, Sankore
Memphis (size 13) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Lighthouse, Heroic Epic, Moai Statues, The Great Lighthouse
Heliopolis (size 9) = 54 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University, Grocer, Bank, Confucian Shrine
Elephantine (size 9) = 18 shields (+1)
Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library, University
Alexandria (size 7) = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Pi-Ramesses (size 7) = 137 shields (+82)
Infrastructure: Granary, Courthouse, Library, Barracks, Forge, Obelisk, University
Byblos (size 4) = 102 shields (+81)
Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks, Lighthouse
Navajo (size 4) = 101 shields (+85)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
Akhetaten (size 3) = 15 shields (+15)
Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Courthouse, Barracks
Eisenburg (size 1) = 46 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: none

First of all, we can see Thebes and now have visibility on all PAL cities! Quite an impressive city it is too. One interesting tidbit is that Thebes has an aqueduct present, which surely indicates that PAL was planning to build the Hanging Gardens here. Thank goodness we chopped it out in time to steal the wonder!

I have no idea where The Warning got so many shields this turn... Memphis builds another unit. Aleandria builds a unit at exactly 100 shields (cuirassier or cannon).

The other three massive shield increases are easy to figure out. Three different cities were double-whipped: Pi-Ramesses (9 to 7), Byblos (6 to 4) and Navajo (6 to 4). They are all producing 100 shield cuirassiers/cannon. This is unquestionably a good strategy in the short run, and it's going to crush Banana. But I do have to ask those reading this - does this plan work long-term? PAL's cities in the north are already up to something like 5 unhappy faces from whipping. The cities will be permanently stuck at low size from unhappiness. Is this a worthwhile investment? What do you think? And should we be considering doing this at cities like Jericho/Upper Burgundy?

[Iamjohn]

This is unquestionably a good strategy in the short run, and it's going to crush Banana. But I do have to ask those reading this - does this plan work long-term? PAL's cities in the north are already up to something like 5 unhappy faces from whipping. The cities will be permanently stuck at low size from unhappiness. Is this a worthwhile investment? What do you think? And should we be considering doing this at cities like Jericho/Upper Burgundy?

The faster they are done with Banana the faster they can start preparations to deal with us. I think a lot of how worthwhile that is depends on how short a time between the two periods is, will they be able to use the units they are producing and training in the war against banana against us, or will they be forced to wait on attacking.

[kjara]

Could Oxhuitza have whipped a spy last turn?

[sunrise089]

The civ era where I deal the most with happiness issues is Industrial. In that era I draft three rifles every turn for the first 20 or so turns I'm able, creating a LOT of unhappiness. However the Byzantine theater + 100% on the culture slider can produce a LOT of happiness

My guess is that PAL will never go that far, but 5 unhappiness should be easily manageable with 20% on the culture slider, right? As far as what we should be doing...I think we're doing fine. We started our war vs Imperio before PAL started theirs with Banana, and Imperio isn't producing units nearly as quickly as Banana is. Over the last 15 turns Banana's power has been spiking much much more than Imperio's.

[Swiss Pauli]

But I do have to ask those reading this - does this plan work long-term? PAL's cities in the north are already up to something like 5 unhappy faces from whipping. The cities will be permanently stuck at low size from unhappiness. Is this a worthwhile investment? What do you think? And should we be considering doing this at cities like Jericho/Upper Burgundy?

Well, they certainly won't be permanently stuck at low sizes, given that whip anger fades with time. I think it will pay off handsomely for them: Thebes doesn't get whipped and is size 14 with only a Forge and a Temple to boost happiness. Given all PAL's cities have a cheap Forge then they should be able to get back to size 8 without any striking citizens. Throw in a cheap Temple whilst they grow back pop and work the odd mine then it all works rather well (unfortunately).

Our situation is rather different, in that PAL's cities all have good food whereas Jericho & UB do not. We've also been drafting as well as whipping, so we're not exactly holding back on the production side either.

Another strategic difference is PAL's heavy overlap of core cities which allows them to switch cottages between cities according to the whip-cycles. Our cities are much more spaced out because we lack handily placed food specials to make an overlap strategy work, so whipping probably has a greater opportunity cost for us than for PAL.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

thanks for all the updates, Sulla!

But I do have to ask those reading this - does this plan work long-term? PAL's cities in the north are already up to something like 5 unhappy faces from whipping. The cities will be permanently stuck at low size from unhappiness. Is this a worthwhile investment? What do you think? And should we be considering doing this at cities like Jericho/Upper Burgundy?

I think they're doing the right thing here. I know you don't like to whip too often and I remember you questioning their heavy whipping strategy during the opening stages of the game, but look where they stand now! Of course whipping isn't the sole reason for the dominant position, but I think it's been a major factor.

Of course whipping and having to deal with the unhappy faces is differently during different eras, but I'm convinced it's still a very good strategy to deal with their current situation. If war weariness adds up too though...well we'll see.

-Kylearan