Cloak & Dagger

[Sullla]

That's really good info there! It's hard to believe though that Imperio's not working the gold tile at Lakamha. Where's all their GNP coming from then (?) Their GNP shot up 13 points (47 -> 60) on T61, which I assumed was coming from working a second gold tile. Maybe that was the turn on which Stonehenge's culture doubled (?) mh, do you know if we can verify that one way or the other?

Thanks for catching my stupid gaffe on forgetting that the Templars had just researched Hunting. Don't know how I missed that one! Better for us than them having another quechua running around.

A final C&D point of interest: PAL double-whipped one of their cities during the current turn (T67), so odds are their fifth settler is on its way. I wish I could understand why we're the only teams that seem to be interested in pushing expansion so heavily. The land is highly contested in this game - it's definitely not the CivFanatics Demogame where each team had their own starting penninsula - and there's every incentive to settle quickly!

[Sullla]

I had to go ahead and try to do tile analysis after getting that tip from mostly_harmless. One important thing to keep in mind is that the mouse-over info only tells you if a resource is connected, not that the tile is actually being worked by a city. Given our great scouting though, we still have enough info to put together a reasonable guess at how our rivals are configuring their cities.

Imperio

Mutal
2/1/1 Center Tile
3/3/0 Plains Cattle
0/3/9 Desert Gold (with River and Financial Bonus)
3/0/3 Floodplains Cottage*
3/0/3 Floodplains Cottage*

Lakamha
2/1/1 Center Tile
5/0/1 Grassland Corn
2/2/3 Grassland Horses (with River and Financial Bonus)
4/1/1 Plains Wheat
0/3/0 Forested Plains Hill*

18/11/16

(Missing 6/3/?)

Total

24/14/32

Guestimating that Imperio produces 32 raw commerce/turn.
Add in Culture (12) and Espionage (4) and possible Stonehenge doubling (8) and we get 56, close to their GNP (65); the extra 9 points likely come from pre-req research discounts. This should be a reasonable estimate.

Explanation: The starred* tiles are ones that I guessed at, after looking at the resources and filling in what was missing from the totals. It seems reasonable though that Mutal would want to be working floodplains cottages, and Lakamha (with a major food excess) would want to work a plains hill for extra shields.

My best guess is therefore that Imperio produces roughly 32 commerce each turn, almost all of which is likely going into research. Estimate something like 30-35 to allow for error. This is notably higher than us (we produce 22/turn), but not as bad as the GNP graph would have you believe!

Templars

Jerusalem
2/1/1 Center Tile
4/2/0 Grassland Cattle
1/3/1 Plains Hill
1/1/3 Plains Cottage*
1/2/0 Plains Forest*

Constantinople
2/1/1 Center Tile
4/0/0 Rice Farm
2/2/2 Grassland Horses

15/9/5
(Missing 2/3/?)

Total
17/12/18

Guestimating that Templars produce 18 raw commerce/turn.
Add in Culture (at least 10) and Espionage (4) and we get a score of 32, close to their GNP (36); the rest comes from pre-req discounts. This also seems pretty reasonable.

Explanation: Much less certain about my Templar estimates. Their zany capital city is pretty much pure guesswork, me trying to force tile arrangements into the missing totals. But their *IS* good evidence that they've been working a plains cottage there, as I pegged them as working a plains tile ages ago as well. It's also possible that they may be employing a Priest specialist via temple, and messing up the totals that way.

I do think the commerce is pretty close though. Templars are almost certainly in the 15-20 range, a far cry from their impressive showing on the GNP graph! As we know, most of that is due to culture from founding two religions.

Anyway, don't put too much faith in this, as it involves a lot of guesswork. But I think it gives us at least a rough outline of the other two civs on our continent.

[mostly-harmless]

Well, yes the little mouse over trick only tells you whether the tile is improved or not, it does not tell you if it is also worked.
And I think I can correct a few numbers from Sullla estimates.
Imperio:
Culture is currently 25:
Mutal:
Palace 2
Obelisk 1
Stonehenge 16 (doubled on turn 61!!! after 25 turns or 1000years)

Lakhama:
Obelisk 1
Holy City 5

There is an additional possible 1 culture if Islam has already spread to Mutal. This is hard to determine from the Religion Screen. I have figured the formula out, but there is lots of rounding involved.
So out of their stunning 65 GNP, 25 are at least culture and 4 espionage.

[B]Templars:[B]
Culture is 12, all in Jerusalem.
Palace 2
Holy City 5
Holy City 5

Constantinople has not yet received any religion.

So together with the 4 espionage points we can reduce Templars GNP to max 20 beakers per turn.

Anyone know if the culture doubling for wonders is linked to 25 turns or 1000years? Is it working for national wonders as well?

mh

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless
Anyone know if the culture doubling for wonders is linked to 25 turns or 1000years? Is it working for national wonders as well?

mh

1000 yrs IIRC. Not sure about national wonders.

[mostly-harmless]

I just double checked the population and land size numbers and stumbled above a little more insight into Bananas second city (with a degree of uncertainty as always):
Founded on T35 (2600BC) on the coast (6 land tiles - 3 water tiles {or overlap with BFC from capital; unlikely}).
Started Workboat right away working a three hammer tile.
Finishing Workboat on T43 and switching to Monument.
Switching to sea food tile and growing to size 2 on T44.
Finishing Monument on T50 starting to accumulate culture.
Whipping something (a warrior?) on T51.
Growing back to size 2 (T54).
Growing further to size 3 (58).
Popping 2nd ring (additional 5 land tiles) on T60 .
Totally unimportant for us now.

More noteworthy stuff:
Imperio will get two border pops on T69 (Lakhama 3rd ring) and T70 (Mutal 4th ring). Mutal's border will then touch Cape Coppers BFC!

PAL has so far whipped away 10 pop points. That's quite a number of hammers. Banana has whipped 4 pop points, while we whipped 2 pop points so far.

The current list of cities is (sorted by size/culture/~food):
Banana capital (Ban) --- 5
Jerusalem (Tem) --- 4
Mutal (Imp) --- 4
Airstrip One (RB) --- 4
Rabbits capital (Rab) --- 4
Lakhama (Imp) --- 4
The Warning (PAL) --- 4
Pink Dot (RB) --- 3
Banana 2nd city (Ban) --- 3
Rabbits 2nd city (Rab) --- 3
Thebes (PAL) --- 3
Memphis (PAL) --- 2
Constantinople (Tem) --- 2
Heliopolis (PAL) --- 2
China Beach (RB) --- 1

Current land tiles ownage is:
RB --- 66
Imperio --- 56 (will increase to 85 on T70)
Templars --- 53
Rabbits --- 39
PAL --- 39
Banana --- 21

mh

[mostly-harmless]

ooops, doublepost

[Sullla]

More noteworthy stuff:
Imperio will get two border pops on T69 (Lakhama 3rd ring) and T70 (Mutal 4th ring). Mutal's border will then touch Cape Coppers BFC!

Boy do they have a surprise coming! More seriously, obviously it's not good that our borders will be touching. What else can we do though? Fortunately their borders won't be expanding again for ages on end - long way from 500 culture to 5000.

More great work as usual, mostly_harmless.

[mostly-harmless]

Ok, update from C&D department:
So lets look at the teams since T54 (! Wow, could have sworn I posted an update since then.)

PAL:
T55: Guess what? PAL's capital " The Warning " grown to size 4 and whipped down to size 2.
T56: Memphis grows to size 2.
T57: Heliopolis (their fourth city) is founded on a coastal spot. (7 land tiles in 1st ring.
T58: Tech researched. That must be Writing.
T60: The Warning grows back to size 3.
T61: Memphis and Thebes grow to size 3.
T64: The Warning grows to size 4.
T65: Memphis grows to size 4. Heliopolis grows to size 2.
T67: Memphis is whipped back to size 2.
T68: The Warning grows to size 5.
T69: Thebes grows to size 4.
T70: Heliopolis gets whipped back to size 1. Elephantine (their fifth city is founded inland (9 land tiles in 1st ring).

So I have them down to 5 cities. Lots of growing and whipping as usual. Interestingly none of the cities (except the capital) has been equipped with culture building. So no border pops for their cities. They all sit around with only their 1st ring. Certainly an interesting tactic. I am a bit worried that PAL will wreck their economy and will delay the tech trade further. Unless they got some gold from huts.


Rabbits:
T59: Capital grows to size 4.
T60: Capital completes Great Wall. Tech learned.
T61: Their 3rd city is settled inland. (9 tiles in 1st ring)
T65: 2nd city grows to size 3. Tech learned.
T69: 3rd city grows to size 2.

Much quieter than PAL. I am pretty sure they have not yet revolted to Slavery. And the same here, despite knowing Mysticism, no Monument was built yet in any of their cities to get border pops.


Templars:
T55: Settled Constantinople inland.
T58: Tech learned.
T61: Constantinople grows to size 2. Jerusalem is the first city in the world to reach 500 culture and popping the 4th ring.
T64: Jerusalem grows to size 4. Tech learned.
T67: To clarify some soldier point puzzles. Jerusalem finished barracks this turn, as can be clearly seen on the Top 5 City screen.
T69: Constantinople grows to size 3. Barb city razed.
T70: Tech learned.

All the techs are ancient era techs. They are pretty squeezed in from both sides and should really do more expansion, especially if Imperio decides to send that settler southward.
Templars have not yet revolted to slavery. And they also have not yet lucked out on getting one of their religions spread to Constantinople.


Imperio:
T56: Tech learned.
T57: Lakhama grows to size 2.
T60: Stonehenge's culture doubles. Tech learned.
T64: Lakhama grows to size 3.
T67: Lakhama grows to size 4.
T68: Islam spreads to Mutal.
T69: Both Mutal and Lakhama expand their borders (4th & 3rd ring) bringing Imperio up to #1 in land size with just two cities. Iron Working learned.
T70: Tech learned. (Must be a very cheap one; 1 turn research.)

Imperio overtook Templars as the most cultured civ. with Mutal getting 20cpt & Lakhama getting 6cpt.
Imperio has lost the settlers race to Cape Copper and will have to decide which direction they want to settle next. There is of course that large fertile south eastern corner with plenty of grasslands, forests, rivers and some food tiles. But there is also a spot north east of Cape Copper grabbing Wheat & gold and lots of grassland. If they settle anywhere along the northern coast line, we will need open borders to get the "RBS Terror of the Seas" through. Keep in mind that Imperio still lacks copper, but has recently discovered the location of iron.
Also no Slavery for Imperio yet.


Banana:
T58: 2nd city grows to size 2.
T59: Capital grows to size 4.
T60: 2nd city pops 2nd ring, so they must have built something cultural (Monument seems reasonable).
T63: Capital grows to size 5.
T64: Iron Working researched.
T67: Capital whipped down to size 4.
T68: Capital recovers to size 5.

From their recent whip of the capital and the stunned growth of their 2nd city, I would expect them to settle a 3rd city soon.

That's it.
For the assessment of soldier points I will wait for Sullla's "State of the nation" speech on T75 and add to his Excel sheet.

mh

[regoarrarr]

Do we know for sure that they haven't built any monuments, or just that they haven't built any monuments within the last 25 turns (5 turns for borders to pop and 20 for it to show up in the score)?

[mostly-harmless]

You are partially right.
We know they have not popped borders. (I am monitoring the land size values closely.)
So from that I derive no monuments (for more than 10 turns), no libs (for more than 5 turns).

mh

[Sullla]

Thanks for the huge update, mh. I filled in a lot of question marks on my Excel tables. Using the "Top 5 Cities" list to spot a barracks in Jerusalem on T67 was absolutely brilliant! A couple of my own conclusions in turn:

- Templars definitely learned Bronze Working on T58. There's no doubt about this, thanks to Soldier point info.

- Based on GNP guesswork, I have Templars down for Pottery as the tech learned on T64. This is not verified, however.

- Since we know that Templars researched Hunting on T66, I'm about 90% certain that the tech they just learned (T70) is Archery. I can verify that once we roll over to the next turn and I can see the Soldier count from the previous one.

- More guesswork with Imperio. Based on their GNP and path through the tech tree, I am guessing that they picked up Priesthood on T56 and either Masonry or Writing on T60. Obviously there's no real way to know, except that one of these two techs *HAD* to be Masonry, because they have connected the stone resource at Lakamha.

- It's obvious that the tech they just researched was Fishing. Imperio already had Hunting tech (T44) and there's no other tech cheap enough to get in one turn. They must have had some serious overrun from Iron Working!

Now that we figured out the Templars barracks and Imperio Iron Working, I'm pretty confident in the Soldier tables again. More info in the upcoming state of the nation post, but as a quick summary:

- Templars should have 6 quechuas, 1 chariot, and a barracks
- Imperio should have 2 warriors, 1 holkan, and 2 units that are either holkans or chariots (probably holkans)
- PAL has 7 warriors, nothing more as best I can tell!

[mostly-harmless]

How do you know, Imperio has connected up the stone?
As far as I can tell they haven't.
Fishing for Imperio does not seem to make sense at a first glance, but knowing they were aiming for Cape Copper it does.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Another update (T71-T80) from the C&D dept. to fill the space between Sullla state of the nation speeches.

PAL:
T71: Alexandra (6th city) settled on the coast (4 land tiles within inner ring)
T72: The Warning grows to size 6 but is whipped down one pop point again. More importantly a slave revolt breaks out in Thebes. PAL, apparently lacking the funds to do anything about it, loose 2 pop points in Thebes (4->2) and the city goes into revolt.
T73: The revolt in Thebes continues.
T74: The revolt in Thebes continues and even spreads to Memphis. The Warning is whipped done to size 4.
T75: Revolts in Thebes & Memphis end. Both cities see a pop increase to size 3, so does Heliopolis (now size 2).
T77: PAL get awarded some land points for The Warnings 3rd ring and Memphis grows to size 4.
T78: Elephantine grows to size 2.
T79: Major population increase for PAL. I can only make sense of the numbers if 5 cities get a pop increase. At this point my data of PAL gets a bit into the gray area, as not all sources match up. This was bound to happen at some point.

I think PAL is through their most critical stages. They have 6 cities and currently work 27 tiles (including the city tiles). We have 17.

Rabbits:
T71: Get some land points awarded for their capital's 3rd ring.
T73: 2nd city grows to size 4.
T76: Captured & razed a barb city.

Relatively uneventful.

Templars:
T75: Get some land points awarded for Constantinople's inner ring.
T79: Constantinople grows to size 4. Barb city Libyan captured and kept. City will sit in revolt for a few turns (3).
T80: Iron Working learned.

Very quite turns. We might learn something about Libyans position when it comes out of revolt and changes the land size stats. Otherwise Sharon the Scout will spot the city on the Grand Tour.

Imperio:
T71: Lakamha grows to size 5.
T72: Chichen Itza settled NE of Cape Town at the coast.
T73: Mutal grows to size 5.
T74: Get awarded some land points for Lakamha's 2nd ring. And learn tech. Writing.
T76: Tech learned. Archery???

Imperio and Templars have signed Open Borders shortly after Imperio has researched Writing.

Banana:
T72: Got awarded land points for capital's 3rd ring. Capital grows to size5. Slave revolt breaks out in 2nd city, but Banana has the funds to prevent pop loss. City goes still into revolt.
T73: Tech learned. Slave revolt continues in 2nd city.
T74: Tech learned (cheap one). Slave revolts ends. 3rd city settled on the coast.
T75: The Pyramids built in capital.
T76: Pop increase for both capital (->size6) & 2nd city (->size4)
T78: Tech learned.
T80: Got awarded land points for 2nd city's 2nd ring. Whipped capital and 2nd city down by one pop each.

Interesting turns for Banana.

Thats it.
I am not 100% sure I got PALs data correct, as it appears that slave revolting cities drop out of some of the demographics stats while captured (& revolting) cities do not. Also the major pop increase is not confirmed by all numbers and stats I monitor. But hey, who is to say there aren't any bugs in this after all those years, since I doubt many have dug that deep into the score & demographic system.

mh

[Sullla]

More great stuff. I filled in and clarified a number of entries on my spreadsheet. It's especially helpful to have these posts on the tens (T70, T80, etc.) in between the empire posts.

Imperio definitely did not learn Archery on T76, because there was no corresponding Soldier point increase. Is that the turn where they learned Fishing (?)

Still waiting on the new turn to start. That darned clock is buggy as hell. It said it would take 14 hours last night, and 14 hours later we still have another 6 hours on the clock. WTF?!

[sunrise089]

Is the pitboss clock like the normal MP turn timer? If so I expect the time displayed on it to have about zero correlation to reality while someone is logged in.