Team Info and Contacts - PAL

[ruff_hi]

suggest back to PAL that Banana trade back one of the Elephants, effectively canceling the deal. That is the quickest way to unwind some of these deals.

[mostly-harmless]

Don't pressure them to hard.
We are not in any danger to be wiped out, just because PAL keeps trading Ivory to Imperio.
And leave the Banana deal alone to terminate naturally. We would need construction and HBR first anyway.
PAL clearly wants to provide everyone with Ivory to lock everyone in an arms race (what soooo said). So I don't think they will cancel the deal with Imperio, just because we ask them twice.
If we appear to weak (by being frightened of Imperio) PAL might not want to deal with us as a long term strategic partner.

mh

[Sullla]

I also think they're being quite generous. Even if it does serve PAL's long terms interests to get everyone on our continent building elephants, they could just as easily give us nothing and solely supply Imperio. I mean, they said that they'll give us ivory for free as soon as a current deal runs out! That's really kind of them. No need to push further on this, it only weakens our bargaining position.

Do I have approval from the team to offer PAL Aesthetics in-game, as part of our tech deal?

[Zeviz]

This might be the case where clearly describing the situation would give the best result. So here is the kind of message I am suggesting to send:

Thank you for your offer of Ivory. Unfortunately, it will take us many turns of research to get the 3 techs needed for Elephants. It will take Imperio less time to build up an army of War Elephants, Catapults, and Longbows, against our Archers and Spears. So if you continue to supply Imperio with Ivory, they will be able to eliminate all other teams on Western continent in a few dozen turns. They are already leader in GNP, so they'll be able to stay in the black while absorbing the continent-wide empire.

If situation was more even, supplying everybody with Ivory would have been a good way to maintain balance of power. However, with Imperio already 4 military techs ahead of us (and with a GNP much higher than anybody else's), providing them with Ivory will allow them to run away with the game.

Zeviz

[mostly-harmless]

Hmm, I think we are coming over as too whiny.

Imperio is only a serious threat to us if they attack together with Templars.
As I said, the most important thing is to not let the war happen. We can do this by visibly strengthen our troops in Cape Town, forcing Imperio to delay their DOW or even give up altogether on the idea, seeing how fast we can churn out units. During that time we have plenty of opportunity to learn what we need for elephants.

Whatever message we send out, please include:

Can we please get a response to our request to send a scouting unit through your lands to contact Banana?

mh

[sunrise089]

Obviously we have a bit of an opinion split here (probably based on how plausible we think a near-term Imperio attack on us is). If we go the Zevis route that I prefer, I would add to the end of the second paragraph:

"We feel that by temporarily canceling the ivory trade until RB (and Templars, if they are maintaining diplomatic contact with PAL) can built Elephants, PAL can ensure a strategic balance on the Western continent. We of course have no objections to PAL trading their other luxury resources to Imperio in order to stay happy and healthy."

If we go the more popular M_H route then the above isn't necessary. I agree PAL is being polite (while also being self-interested), and that we can outproduce Imperio long term, I just am fearful that if Imperio attacks they should hit our lightly-guarded Cape city before it's reinforced.

[sooooo]

I agree with Sullla's post.

[Dreylin]

Thank you for your offer of Ivory. Unfortunately, it will still take us many turns of research to get the 3 techs needed for Elephants - let alone build any - during which time Imperio would be able to build up an army of War Elephants, Catapults, and Longbows, against our Archers, Axemen and Spears. We feel that if you continue to supply Imperio with Ivory, they will be able to eliminate both us and the Templars in a few dozen turns. With their ridiculous start location, they are already leader in GNP, so they'll be able to stay in the black while absorbing the continent-wide empire.

We feel that by temporarily canceling the ivory trade until RB (and Templars, if they are maintaining diplomatic contact with PAL) can built Elephants, PAL can ensure a strategic balance on the Western continent. We of course have no objections to PAL trading their other luxury resources to Imperio in order to stay happy and healthy.

We are also still interested in your permission to send a Scout through your lands to make contact with Banana. If this is not a preferred option, would you be prepared to act as a broker between us and suggest and allow a Banana Scout to come through your lands to meet us?

Massaged the first paragraph, included Sullla's second paragraph and added m_h's request with an alternative option, since surely Bananas have seen most of Pal's land before....

[Zeviz]

The message looks good, but the line "We of course have no objections to PAL trading their other luxury resources to Imperio in order to stay happy and healthy." could ruin the tone of the message. We can't "have objections" to any of PAL's deals. We are just making a suggestion to them. It's obvious that they can trade other resources, so there is no need to "allow" them to do it. (And if they want to offer full trade embargo against Imperio, we'll be happy.)

[mostly-harmless]

As said before, I am against pressuring them further on the Ivory matter.

@ Sullla: I am in favor for offering the deal this turn.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

With only 12hours on the clock I went ahead and offered Aesthetics to PAL.

mh

[Zeviz]

As said before, I am against pressuring them further on the Ivory matter.
...
mh

I am no longer as worried as I was this morning, so if C&D department thinks that we'll be able to see Imperio's and Templar's military buildup far ahead and will be able to re-contact PAL about it, I'll also vote to not send this message for now.

[Dreylin]

But we do still want to ask them about Banana, so maybe the following:

Pal,

RB thanks you for the Ivory offer, and look forward to trading with you. We do still have concerns about the army that Imperio could put into the field while we research the necessary military techs for Elephants, but think that we will be able to deter them from attack for that long.

As you can see, we made the first move in the CS trade by offering Aesthetics in-game, and look forward to your acceptance.

We are also still interested in your permission to send a Scout through your lands to make contact with Banana. If this is not a preferred option, would you be prepared to act as a broker between us and suggest and allow a Banana Scout to come through your lands to meet us?

Acknowledges the offer of Ivory, mentions the time delay for us to get 'phants but doesn't push them on it. Confirms our trade agreement & nudged the Banana issue....

[Zeviz]

Sounds good.

[ruff_hi]

email from PAL ...

Hello Realms.

What is Team Realms planning on researching next? We are interested in NOT duplicating your research efforts, so we can continue trading with you. PAL remains on track for Civil Service in 3 turns, but we are undecided on what we tech next.

cres