Salonika

[Turk Man]

this topic will keep on going

[Turk Man]

not turk are bad ,it is what happed to them that make them this way.

[Azeem]

I recall reading an essay written by a Turk speaking about why it is so hard for Turks to admit grave error concerning the actions they have done in the past. He said that at the end of the Ottoman Empire, the Turks were in a situation similar to what the Germans were in prior to the rise of the Nazis. The Turks, like the Germans, were losing their power after many centuries of prestige, and felt that their very existence and their very identity was being threatened by other world powers. Also like the way Nazi Germany brought the Holocaust upon many innocent Jews, the Turks were desparate, thus they made other groups scapegoats, blaming them for their problems. As a result, many terrible things happened. This Turkish historian parallels the terror committed by the Turkish nation to the terror committed by the Germans in World War II.

The Japanese during World War II, did many terrible things to my people in China (such as raping, pillaging, murdering, and even testing diseases and weapons on unarmed civilians), but I do not hold a grudge against them. It makes no sense hating everyone. But if you hate specifically the people (but not those who were not involved) that have committed the atrocities, then that is understandable.

[XarXo]

The problem with Turkey is not muslim, almost for me, the problem is that Turkey seems an Asian civ that tries to use the Istanbul and older greek territories conquest as an excuse to enter in Europe. And it seems not european.

The main problem is: A nation can be european if it conquest an european civ (Byzance) ? What will happen if China invade France, for example, and 1000 years after it aks to include Fran-Chin () in UE?

So... WHAT IS EUROPE?

I feel that Turkey should create and UE-like of countries with -stan ending, this is all middle asia except Georgia and Armenia.

And Russia? Is european? The answer is crealy YES. It must enter in UE.

The problem is that the -stan countries are very poor and islam-paralized and Turkey don't want this.

The best solution for Turkey is create just an Alliance with UE, and be the main country of the development of the -stan countries. This will give capitability to Turkey and became the Germany-France of "Union-stan"

The idea for Russia is became the bridge with asia using the transiberian rail (modernized, of course, with UE money ) for connect with China, Mongolia, (is tecnically possible, and is projected) Japan, Korea (N & S) and Souther Asia by China.

Money, money, money...

But only are my ideas.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon

Americans! Remove Houston and Dallas from your registers! Historically they were part of another country once!

...and Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Phoenix...etc. etc. etc., yet I find no problem with this. I think Civ should reflect the city they are most associated with. These cities were founded by the Spanish, became Mexican, later taken (ehem, stolen) by the US. But most people associate them with the US so that's what civ's cities they should be.

Frankly I don't undestand what's to fuss about something that can be so trivially altered in the Editor. Yeah, they spelled some Aztec stuff wrong too, nothing I can't change in 2 minutes instead of launching a greek vs. turk hate thread.

[Turk Man]

turkey need to have help in
gov.

[G(R)EEK]

Hmmm, I am so charming because...

... of the fact that my mothers' father was the only one who survived when Turks slaugthered all of his family, back in 1922. It was Trapezounta, Pontos, or Trabzon where that is today.

Part of the anger you see from me is because I speak for all of them. I wish they (or their ancestors) were here to speak for themselves.

My father's father had a brother in the Army. He was a lieutenant fighting in the campaign we Greeks call the Micrasian Catastrophe of '22. He was captured and killed. I am not sad about him. He was a soldier and he did his duty. Nor do I blame his opponents. That was war. But killing all of my other grandfathers kin is genocide. Pure and simple.

I said it before and I will say it again. If anyone cares to read what I wrote, we don't want any part of Turkey. We don't.

But Turkey hasn't changed. In 1974, when it invaded Cyprus, it slaughtered 1900+ people and buried them in mass graves. If you add to that the millions of Armenians, Greeks, and Kurds slaughtered 1915-1923 well you may reach Holocaust proportions. That to me equates Turkey with Nazi Germany.

That is something to be ashamed of. No justification of any kind is possible. I wonder how I would feel about all of that were I an educated Turk. Luckily, I won't ever have to.

---------
I do believe that the Turkish people if left on their devices would probably leave all that in the past, and carry on with both Europe, and Modernisation. The main problem is that Turkey today is basically a hidden dictatorship. If the army reatreats back into the barracks there may be hope. I SO MUCH HOPE SO!

Europe can help Turkey put the Military back into the Barracks. But Turkey must be willing to do that. Not just fake it.

[ktaek]

Any complaints you have against the Turks pales compared to the complaints that native Americans or native Australians have against the Europeans that massacred them in order to colonize those continents. And i'm sure anicent Greece had its share of imperialism that offended neighbors.

3000 years is nothing compared to how long native Americans were settled in the Americas.

Point is, if you're going to start listing every single grievance one culture has against another culture, you'll die of old age before you're done.

You can either look forward to making things better or sit and stew about the past and get nowhere.

[Azeem]

If you want to go FAR back into history, then you can include my ancestors' greivances against the Chinese as well (even though I am technically "Chinese" now) as their culture was either destroyed or assimilated into the Empire and my ancestors, who were most likely mere peasants, were most likely the ones who were forced to toil and die building the Great Wall.

But as Ktaek mentioned, there are MANY other cultures out there that have experienced equally terrible things that the Native Americans, the Australian Aborigines, the Kurds, the Armenians, and the Greeks faced throughout history.

[Argos65987]

Originally posted by Palaiologos

Sorry argos65987, but what kind of crap is that?

I don't know why I bother responding, but that kind of "crap" is saying that someone has to be the first to reachout towards his enemy (remember a guy named Jesus?). No one ever said it was easy. It is something to strive to achieve.

However, according to your "logic", Greeks should kill Turks for revenge, but then according to this line of thought, the Turks must then kill Greeks for revenge. Ergo, Palestinians must kill Israelis for revenge, and Israelis must kill Palestinians, Irish kill English, English kill Irish, etc, etc, etc. Sounds like a really well thought out plan.

As far as your original post about cities showing up in 2 different civs city lists - big deal, change it in the editor. If that is the worst thing that happened to you today, consider yourself lucky.

[Master Zen]

Frankly I do agree somewhat with these angry greeks in the sense that it is not easy to forget a past injustice, most people from the US or UK might not understand this as they have never suffered a similar ordeal.

I do think, however, that the past can, and should, be forgotten if the aggressor side has shown honest intentions of reconcilliation and shows a different attitude towards the victim side. I do not know if this has happened (apparently not) in the Greek vs. Turk debate, so I cannot judge either side. As for ordinary people perpetrating genocide or crimes, I for the most part believe that most people in most countries DO show a subconcious agreement with the policies, whatever horrid, of their government with relation to other countries.

Anyway, hopefully things change with both your countries, may Turks forgive and repent their crimes of the past and may Greeks be willing to accept it when they do.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Where is the thread/forum moderator?

This thread left PTW in the wings a long, long, LONG time ago. Why is it being allowed to continue?

(And yes, I'm jealous because the threads I write don't get as much airtime. )

[Turk Man]

by 1922 the turk had take back land that greek have take in 1920 when the ottoman's give a way.

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by Azeem
I see. But there may be some Turks out there that want reconciliation. You can't say that they're ALL evil, since that would be flat out prejudice (prejudice="pre-judge"). The trick is to find those people.

I think this is the notion of racism in reverse.

Not all Turks are good, simply because a few are.

[XarXo]

The main problem, as I see, is city names. More than a simply list of cities could be great the possibility to inser a name into each square of the map. So if you create a city *here* will have the name that the map creator want. This is good for avoid suck-name cities in MP games.