Salonika

[Centauri18]

Can't we all just get along?

[Centauri18]

And oh yeah. Istanbul could be considered to be at least partially on the Greek mainland. (Sure, it was originally Byzantium, then Constantinople, now Istanbul. I say, if you decide to live in a city, don't change the name so much.
But if everybody went like that, New York would still be New Amsterdam...

[Switch]

Genghis-Sean has a very valid point, though. Firaxis, being American, seems to have made all of the city names without prejudice (spiced with a little ignorance, but that's really irrelevant). Since you do have this annoyance with the city name, just change it to your will. This multiple city thing is a lot more common than just (Thes)salonika. Compare the Roman and Celtic city list with that of France and England, and you'll see a lot of repeats with slightly different names (Lundinium, London, etc.). I'm sure there are some anti-Italians out there offended by the use of Londinium. I'm sure there are some oldskool Romans who are offended by London, since the Romans founded Londinium before it became English London. They can just change it as they want, and so should you. Go ahead, be offended. But don't expect the rest of the Civ community to be offended with you. I, personally, will keep Thessalonika and Salonika. As I will also keep London and Lundinium. They don't offend me, so why should my list of cities be short-handed just because they might offend someone else?

/me hopes this was on-topic.

[Switch]

Originally posted by Centauri18
And oh yeah. Istanbul could be considered to be at least partially on the Greek mainland. (Sure, it was originally Byzantium, then Constantinople, now Istanbul. I say, if you decide to live in a city, don't change the name so much.
But if everybody went like that, New York would still be New Amsterdam...

And Kitchener would still be Berlin. Silly Great War propaganda.

[Centauri18]

Where the hell is Kitchener?

[Switch]

It's a dual-city with Waterloo. It was called Berlin until the Great War (WW1), when Canadians became afraid of German ties.

[Master Zen]

Anaton:

thou hast spoken like a true patriot.

Well said.

[Centauri18]

Oh. I forgot about that.

[Cvetin]

I'm gonna break my pledge not to appear on this thread just to post one qucik question to my G(r)eek buddies. Any news from the beautiful island of Syros? I heard that on January 30 they had an UCK (albanian "liberation" army) flag flown on their main church with the word Chameria (what albanians call Epirus) on it. And Syros is in the Aegean Sea, 500 km from Chameria!!! Did theUCK marines land on a wrong beach or something? Seriously geeks, you heard about this or is it a fake story?

PS. Palaiologos, "Greece must do its utmost to support FYROM and prevent its colapse, as they form a excellent buffer state. Step two would be to drive out ALL albanians from the country."


Be still my beating heart. No Greek has ever spoken so kindly of my country Thank you, thank you master

[Anaton]

Yes Cvetin, that's a true story. Go figure...Such stupid actions irritate greeks as it would irritate Americans see a flag of a supposed "Free Mexican Texas" in the main square of Huston, but as I said previously this is not a reason for hatred against all people with the nationality of the one that did that.



Now as for the game... sure to me having Salonica to the Ottomans doesn't feel good but one more reason to conquer that city. I've seen more historical inaccuracy in games all around that I could really care for, or be able to correct.

BTW.. Speaking of Istanbul....
that name is Greek too. Actually it's not a name but a phrase.

Constantinopole ( city of Constantine) was usualy called Pole ( City) because of the glory and the love all Greeks had for it. So you'd know when a greek says Pole with a certain tone in his voice he means Constantinopole..

Anyway "Isanbul" comes from the phase "eis tin Pole"
which means "to the City". "legent" has it that this name was given to Constantinopole by the Turks beause when they took over it and controlled the whole region, that phrase was the answer of those heading towards the city when asked.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by ktaek
Any complaints you have against the Turks pales compared to the complaints that native Americans or native Australians have against the Europeans that massacred them in order to colonize those continents. And i'm sure anicent Greece had its share of imperialism that offended neighbors.

I would actually compare the situation with blacks in America. The origins of the trouble are somewhat different but the effect it has in the present is very much comparable. The healing process is there but there are still too many misconceptions, scepticism, stereotypes, etc. that make each other feel threaten by the other. Don't forget that for both Blacks and Greeks not even a generation ago were abused, attacked, killed by Whites or Turks.

Now that I am not claiming that it is correct but this is the way things are and for you Americans a way to maybe understand where the Greeks are coming from. The good news is that the steps to the right direction have been taken and I just hope that this will continue. It will take a few more generations before the complete healing takes place.

Funny thing about ignorant americans is that it is a stereotype that is somewhat right but it is a bit more universal than just an american thing, let me explain. In the documentary "Bowling for Columbine" Michael Moore says something very similar in the opening of the film:

"It's a normal day in America... ...US is bombing a country, which most Americans cannot even prounounce it's name...". Back in the Gulf War I was in the US, as I was walking in a mall I hear one guy say to the other "...where the f**k is Kuwait...". Fartheremore in my high school I made presentations of Greece, well seniors did not know if it was in Europe or in Africa. The funny/tragic part is that they were taught about the origins of western civ and Democracy so they at least had to know that Greece was in Europe. But on the other side they enjoyed themselves in football games, cheerleaders, etc. Ignorance is a Bliss and I envy Americans for that.

Ok, now lets switch continents, a couple years back I was working in Export Sales and one of the adm. staff asked (witha very surprised look in her face) "Is Greece in the EU?", The funny/tragic thing is that she has been there and part of her taxes in the last 15 years or so have gone to the modernization of Greece. I've had similar experiences over the last five years, this only proves to me that there are ignorant people everywhere, it doesn't matter if you're Greek, American, German, etc. It is a fact of life and something that is unavoidable.

So long...

[The Pioneer]

I agree with Anaton on the topic and share his views on the whole matter.

As for the name, it's very ironic and when I explain it to Turks they are dumbfounded but such is life, full of
ironies

So long...

[PLATO]

Pioneer, Your view of Americans is stereotypical and very ill informed. Becoming the major economic, cultural, and military power in the world does not happen with a population full of ignorant people. Ignorance abounds throughout the world in many different forms. It is true that The US has a wide range of peoples...some ARE ignorant, but never doubt that the majority know what we are about and how to make it happen.

BTW Centauri: New Amsterdam would be fine for New York for me. It would take a little getting used to though

[Switch]

Well, Pioneer you ARE right in that there are ignorant people throughout the world. Example, in my ancient history class, we were being taught about the Islamic religion (to give us a background for the Crusades), and then she mentioned how Mohammed did NOT teach to instigate war against the unbelievers, and the like. And then one of the students (one of the typically dumber ones.....you know the type) says "Doesn't Moslem mean terrorist?"
I couldn't believe my ears, he had actually said that in all honesty. Then my teacher began to explain how Moslem does NOT mean terrorist...he replies wih "Well aren't all terrorists Moslem?" Then she said they are not. He then replies "Watch the news sometime."

And that is why I understand why North Americans are stereotypicalized as ignorant to the world. Rather saddening, really. Fortunately most people in that class actually knew that Moslem does not = terrorist, and that not all terrorists are moslem.

[Azeem]

There are some seriously stupid Americans. But on the other hand, you'll find some people (unfortunately, we're not too much of a majority) that do know what is going on and a significant amount of history and prespectives.