Diplomacy Thread

[Togas]

I like Davout's suggestion that we harry them with our warriors and I intend to do that until we "resolve" this conflict. I also intend to not trade with them until this is resolved ... but that is somewhat negotiable.

Important note: GoW AND Lux are both working on Horseback Riding. They both want to trade it to us. After that, Lux is going for Mysticism, which we have, and GoW wanted to go for Mapmaking, which we will be researching. Only ND (mathematics) seems to be on a different track at this point, however we do have an agreement with Lux to try to stay on different paths, and we should keep that if possible.

Bottom line, unless GoW can offer us something novel to trade ... Construction? We don't need to keep them in the tech trade loop.

--Togas

[adaMada]

I'm in chat with Trip now. Conversation started off with me asking how things were going in Lux-land, to which he replied how he's still trying to catch up with ND in tech lead. He mentioned in passing that GoW and ND both seemed to have trouble with us -- ND being new news to me. I said something along the lines of "Well, we're having a few bumps with GoW, but ND's new news to me, unless I'm out of the loop." I didn't really know how to reply after that -- ARE we having troubles with ND, or are they just doing like everyone else and misinforming? (Or is Trip just going around telling everyone that everyone else hates them?)

-- adaMada

[Togas]

Trip tries to stir up trouble a bit. It's in his best interest to keep us suspicious of ND and GoW, so that we'll stay closely aligned to them. He's said things like this to me before that I just played along with, but I don't see any basis for ND to be any with us, and I've seen no evidence at all of it.

Lux followed ND's settler around and blamed them for breaking a settlement treaty. GoW went into ND's territory (according to Ghengis, on a turn where Donegeal was playing). We've been very polite, perhaps only ignoring them for a trade of Iron Working, but I think that's the least of their concerns.

--Togas

[adaMada]

My Message to Panzer

Just sent the following message to Panzer: (rugby -- hope you don't mind me using your quote -- I really liked it, and I thought it helped establish that I'm not acting alone):

Panzer,
I apologize for the late reply -- it has indeed been a busy day, with much discussion on my team about how to respond to this recent set of events. There are obviously many people with different feelings on the issue, and it has (as such) generated a great deal of discussion about how to best respond to this chain of events, even within my own team .

Firstly, in regards to your question about how big the territory in question is. El Valle De Los Torros has jungle to the north, is surrounded by mountains on two sides, and has the sea at its west. It is literally the heartland of España. At its widest points, it is about seven spaces wide and four deep. At our current rate, we'll have it mostly settled within twenty turns, and another ten after that our settlement should be complete. That should give you a rough feeling for the size of the land -- if there is any other information you desire, please let me know.

It is the land we have. I understand your concern -- how do you know that we are not portioning off half of the map for ourselves? -- but I tell you, it is not the case. This is the little land available to us, and we must protect it, not out of greed, but because it is our home. As we've said, we're happy to trade maps with you as soon as the technology is available, and you can see that we speak the truth -- it is not merely some land that we might choose to settle in the future, but it is indeed the land that we are settling now, and shall be done settling soon in the future.

It is not that we trust you any less than we trust any other in this matter. We have asked both ND and Lux to do the same, and have gone as far as to sign some agreements to this matter. To quote from our private forums:

Originally posted by ruby_maser
El Valle de los Toros represents the most arable land in the vicinity of the Spanish kingdom and, as so, also represents the most viable option for settlement in the near future. Scouting in the valley constitutes a knowledge of our homeland's defenses that we would prefer to avoid. We have made no such scouting expedition north of the jungle for that very reason and have also come to an understanding with Lux Invicta and Neu Demogyptica concerning this issue. As such, we would ask that you join us in friendship and respect and know that we shall extend you and your lands the same courtesy.

As we've said, we have been happy to avoid scouting your territory until you're prepared for it to be shown, and would gladly trade maps as soon as it's possible. If it would make your people more at ease with the situation, we'd be happy to sign a mutual agreement with you in this regard. We have discovered Iron Working in the recent past -- once we've resolved this larger issue of territory, we can see what trades are available to us (I fear that it may already be too late for a trade with Iron (though I can't say for sure), but we should at least move on to open up avenues for future trades). The sooner we can resolve this, the better, as it's holding up our diplomatic options.

It is my understanding that our leaders have had some (rather unfruitful) discussions on this matter. I ask that we, in the name of diplomacy and peace, find some way to put these conflicts behind us. On my team, there is a good deal of mixed feelings on this issue, as I'm sure there are on yours. We, as Ambassadors from our respective groups, need to act now to establish a solid diplomatic relationship for the future.

Thanks again.

-- adaMada
Togas' Ambassador to Glory of War

(paraphrasing)

Dear Panzer,

You are encroaching on Roleplay's territory. We value you as a friend, but do not want you neer to us. Would you like to trade maps later?

Best wishes from Iberia,
adaMada
Togas’ Ambassador to Glory of War

adaMada:

I thank you for warning us we were getting close to your lands. I am glad we did not just stumble upon Madrid and you thought we were going to take it. We have a nonagression pact, remember?

I hope you will allow us to either stay where they are or move back for the time being. As much as I hope we can resolve this soon, I realise it might take one or two turns to sort it out. Our team is currently discussing one or two agreements that I hope would be satisfactory to both teams.

One question I ask of the Roleplay team, is approximatly how big is this territory you have set aside for yourselves? The Glory of War understands that you want room to expand, but does not think teams should claim territory unnecisarily. How many resources does this territory have in it? I think these questions are fair, and if the Glory of War had any such territorial claims, we would be happy to answer them.

Thank you for your time;

Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

NOTE: Due to PM length restrictions, I had to cut out the quoting of his original message, but I've left it here for our sanity's sake .

I deliberately avoided the issue of what resources and luxes we have in the territory -- if they ask, I'll tell 'em, but otherwise they'll find out when we trade maps and AFTER we've got cities down. What I said re: our leaders may have been a little too bluntly stated, but it served to establish that I'm not Togas' mouthpiece, and (if nothing else) will help when we try to establish that I'm the 'good cop' who's 'convincing' Togas on the issue. On a potential deal, I'm not sure if there's anything out there, but by surfacing the issue now, we give them incentive for them to leave, and the way I’ve worded it leaves our options open -- if we want to reestablish our diplomatic integrity with them, we can always lob them an easy deal after the whole thing's over.

I’ll probably write another PM tomorrow to try to address the other issues in this thread and continue to establish a tone. I’m considering requesting an ‘audience with their leader’ – it’d just be a PM, but it’d probably really appeal to Ghengis’ ego, and I could (yet again) work to establish the good cop role. Having said that, I don’t have anything to say to Ghengis (yet ), so if anyone has any ideas, please share .

-- adaMada

[adaMada]

Originally posted by Togas
Trip tries to stir up trouble a bit. It's in his best interest to keep us suspicious of ND and GoW, so that we'll stay closely aligned to them. He's said things like this to me before that I just played along with, but I don't see any basis for ND to be any with us, and I've seen no evidence at all of it.

Lux followed ND's settler around and blamed them for breaking a settlement treaty. GoW went into ND's territory (according to Ghengis, on a turn where Donegeal was playing). We've been very polite, perhaps only ignoring them for a trade of Iron Working, but I think that's the least of their concerns.

--Togas

Togas,
That makes a lotta sense . It makes NO sense for ND to be saying bad things about us, especially when we've got a pretty solid relationship with them and everyone else seems to be gunning for 'em. Having said that, I thought it was at least worth checking the information in -- so much stuff's going on at the same time, I honestly wasn't sure that we hadn't snubbed ND in some small way, especially considering all the underhanded diplomacy that's been going around from all the teams in the past weeks .

-- adaMada

[Togas]

It is the land we have. I understand your concern -- how do you know that we are not portioning off half of the map for ourselves? -- but I tell you, it is not the case. This is the little land available to us, and we must protect it, not out of greed, but because it is our home. As we've said, we're happy to trade maps with you as soon as the technology is available, and you can see that we speak the truth -- it is not merely some land that we might choose to settle in the future, but it is indeed the land that we are settling now, and shall be done settling soon in the future.

When they finally see our map and see all the land to the south of the Valley that we're covertly protecting, they'll see that this isn't the "little land available to us". Secretly, they may respect our deception, but publicly they'll lord it over us.

However, what that land is, is the only place where we can find Iron ... and I don't know if I want to let them know that.

--Togas

[History Guy]

I write to Picahulu:

Hail Picahulu, my good friend, Ambassador from Sultan Borc, Master and Overlord of Neu Demogyptica,

I understand why you may have been late in this. I myself have such problems, especially with our recent boom in the squid market, so that much of my time is spent writing out new deals for the squid trade, and expanding our menu.

I agree that, if anything, the foolish plots of the inscrutable Orientals has only brought our two nations closer together, for allies are to be needed, and this was obviously a simple (poor) tactic on their part to drive a wedge between our people. Unfortunately for them, none of us are fools. They were mistaken indeed to think that they could deal with us in such a ridiculous fashion. If anything, they have simply proven to us that they are the most untrustworthy of people.

Mathematics is a keen and noble art, so we believe. Indeed, it would certainly help a commercial civilization like ours, so that we could finally get our deals straight, and figure out how many squids go into a six-pack, and etc. You understand these things, I am sure.

We are deligently research another noble art, Writing. In about 10 turns this magnificent knowledge shall be mastered, and we would very much like to trade it for the splendid art of Mathematics, if this is found to be an adequate deal. Such as this would put our civilizations on firm cultural foundations, and the both of us would stand out as the two greatest nations on this earth.

On to expansion, good sir. We would be very pleased to sign a settlement link with you, good sirs, so that we may both have bountiful land on which to expand and be fruitful, as is the right of every nation under the dome of heaven. After Writing is discovered, and we have established our embassies, we should very much like also to sign a Right of Passage treaty, thus allowing each other to explore and chart our world further.

As for settlement, Milord Togas has laid out this plan for the Sultan's inspection. We hope that you would feel safe with settling both to the west and the east. We would give up settling to the east if you would agree not to settle any further than south of the jungle, the border of your lands, perhaps. Such a division across our maps would give us both access to gemstones, with which to make us both rich, and iron, a metal which we believe you already have.

We would also wish to draw a settlement link on our maps, which would bring our nations closer together, and make trading more easy and fruitful, and would make a border between our nations.

Finally, there is the matter of your scout, the good Senor Arne. We will allow you to continue in peace, you have our blessing, may the spirits guide and protect him. However, we have very significant fears for him. The fact is, a camp of roguish barbarians is encamped somewhere in that vicinity, and they are much feared for good reason. They are terrible and cruel, and have mastered black magic, so that they may blend in with nature. We search, but we hope it is not in vain. Our bold and brave warriors are following the clues, searching for these pirates, for they are a threat to our workers. However, as of now, we must warn you that they are still lurking in the vicinity of the city of Pamplona, near your scout, and a wrong turn could lead you right to them. Thus, we suggest that until the threat is defeated you may wish to keep your scout near our warriors.

I look forward to hearing your response, Gracious Friend Picahulu.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador from Milord Togas, Master of Iberia, Overlord of the Visigoth, Flattener of the Vandal
--

I await the word of Togas.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
(Who is so busy that this is about the only thing he has gotten to here in the past couple of days!)

[adaMada]

Originally posted by Togas




When they finally see our map and see all the land to the south of the Valley that we're covertly protecting, they'll see that this isn't the "little land available to us". Secretly, they may respect our deception, but publicly they'll lord it over us.

However, what that land is, is the only place where we can find Iron ... and I don't know if I want to let them know that.

--Togas

Uh oh. I wasn't making a mental distinction between the Valley de los Torros and the land south of it . I shouldn't have made that assumption based on the information bout the valley itself -- sorry .

What should I do? Panzer's already read my message, so there's no way to recall it -- and I can't really send them a revised estimate upwards without really messing things up worse. Any thoughts?

Perhaps I could inform them that the information I sent before was about the Valley itself, and that I've been asked to send further information about the other lands surrounding us? We could play that there is much more habitable land below the Valley, but the Valley is our first avenue of expansion, and (as such) we must protect that first. We could probably even make some sort of bluff that they'd be welcome to join with us in settling the lower lands once we've secured the valley -- in truth, it'd be very uneconomical and untactical for them to do that, and I doubt they will.

Either way, I think leaving until they see our map might be a worse idea, since it'd probably be better to have another diplomatic incident now rather than have one later when we've gotten everything already fixed.

Seems like I've gone and gotten us into an even bigger mess -- sorry . Any suggestions as to how we can get out?

-- adaMada

[DAVOUT]

History Guy,

You wrote :
...if you would agree not to settle any further than south of the jungle ...

I understand that this includes the south of the jungle, but not further. I would have said (also I realize how it is audacious to suggest anything regarding style to a writer ): ... not to settle in the jungle or beyond ...

Also I dont think that the line on the map is necessary; I would prefer that the agreement says only that the empty space between our cultural border will be treated as a no mans land, and that both of us will take any step necessary to prevent other civs from settling in it.

RP
I have noticed that once again the Squid Baron is using the Spanish diplomacy for private needs such as modernizing the squid trade.
/RP

[DAVOUT]

ada,

If he comes back on the subject, take it easy. RP respects the tradition of selecting the diplomats amongst people ignoring geography and mathematic, all the more when math has not been discovered. And you can add that some people in the team would be interested to know the extent of their land.

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by History Guy
Finally, there is the matter of your scout, the good Senor Arne. We will allow you to continue in peace, you have our blessing, may the spirits guide and protect him.

Is this wise? If we are pushing for a tentative border with them and some sort of settlement accord to keep them from encroaching on Cow Valley, we had best be quick about it. Arne is going to find those juicy lands to the south soon enough, and with our blessing? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were hiding it from them too

On a sidenote, AdaMada, I'm honored that you included a quote of mine in your communique with Panzer. If there is a peaceful resolution, I'm sure it will come through your excellent diplomatic skills I hope they are just trying to save face and will feign a loss of interest and go home.

[Thrumble]

Originally posted by Togas
Important note: GoW AND Lux are both working on Horseback Riding. They both want to trade it to us. After that, Lux is going for Mysticism, which we have, and GoW wanted to go for Mapmaking, which we will be researching. Only ND (mathematics) seems to be on a different track at this point, however we do have an agreement with Lux to try to stay on different paths, and we should keep that if possible.

Bottom line, unless GoW can offer us something novel to trade ... Construction? We don't need to keep them in the tech trade loop.

--Togas

I was talking with some people from Lux yesterday and discovered that they are not researching Horseback Riding. Their trading Ironworking to GoW for it. Then attempting to trade Horseback to us for Writing.

This might further elaborate on GoW's anger towards us. As they seem to discuss things with Trip they may have discovered we were trading them Writing for Horseback and depending on how Trip worded it to them come to the conclusion we were using Lux to cut them out of the loop.

Irregardless, the Lux member said that GoW is considering not trading Horseback Riding to them to prevent them from giving it to us.

It's interesting how this whole inter-team situation is unraveling.

[Ninot]

it sounds like GOW dont want us to have things if we arent getting it from them

why do I think some nation will eventually stop all tech trade so that their enemy has NO chance to gain a tech?

i think, if we hope to become a diplomatic powerhouse in the future, we must resolve this situation by having all parties meet, without any info being kept out.

Truth is our guide, in this case.

[Ninot]

oh... this raised another point of suspicion for me

why would GoW deny Lux a trade, only because it would help us?

i really think we have to evaluate constantly the odds of war on GoW in the early going.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Ninot

why do I think some nation will eventually stop all tech trade so that their enemy has NO chance to gain a tech?

Because it is logical