Diplomacy Thread

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Ninot
well war IS stupid if its just to stand our ground and beat our chest, see whos more cowardly.

Oh, I fully agree with you. The idea of a war this early is purely ludicrous. It's just plain silly.

IF we give in an inch, we lose face.

This isn't so bad, really...

IF we give them the tech without them leaving, they gain tactical miliatary info, technology, and good reason to attack us in the future, because we can be labeled as untrustworthy for thinking of keeping them out of territory that isnt ours yet.

We need to get a concession out of them for this. Personally, I think we should use this as a bargaining chip. They don't want our warrior obstructing their warrior from freely moving about and we're not happy with them being there at all.... so they could sweaten a deal for us to smooth things over (if they were smart... which isn't quite the case).

IF we dont... we may still risk a fight, but they dont gain that tech, we dont lose face, and we are more certain they will attack us?

Personally, I think the whole situation is positively silly. The stakes are too high... we need to keep GoW as an ally-of-convenience, even if we don't like them and they get on our nerves on occassion.

I'm not saying we should just forget the whole thing and give them the tech, I'm saying we still give them the tech deal, but we try to sweaten the deal in return for not obstructing their exploration of the west coast.

[Ninot]

its silly, but its very plainly obvious that GoW are looking for a fight

that they 1) want to know what resources we might gain and 2) are jumping on the opportunity to label us dishonest.... it makes it very plain that they want a war.

They are scouting for an enemy. Wil they want to conduct war over the bounderies of a jungle? well maybe they'll get the idea that a swordsmen stack of 6 or so is all they need to cleave us up.


I dont personally think we can do anything to stop them from scouting and considering war with us. Even if we benefit from a trade with them, that will NOT stop future war. thats my opinion.

[Arnelos]

Togas,

I just sent you a PM about this.

As for GhengisFarb personally... he's not very good at this... he's trying to dupe people into stuff in WAY WAY WAY too obvious a manner. As for his deciding to be upset about Togas being upset over the warrior in our "territory", I can see where he's coming from, but he's not very bright about it... seriously, the best thing he can do right now would be to salvage the relationship by offering Togas an incentive to let them explore the West coast (and call our bluff on that we can't stop them, but he's willing to be "nice" about it).

As it is, I don't see GhengisFarb, or many of the members of his team, having the insight to see this as the way out. They're calling our bluff alright, they just don't care enough about the strategic relationship to be very nice about calling our bluff.

From a broader perspective, GhengisFarb is looking for who he can hoodwink into being a "friend" because they're scared of others. If Legoland and ourselves coordinate on ND knowing what's really going on, it sure won't be ND (they won't EVER trust GoW after that one...). He's partially upset that he can't seem to hoodwink Togas and partially upset that Togas broke a deal with them (especially after Togas got upset for them breaking a deal with us).

I think making adaMada the ambassador is the perfect move. adaMada is such a nice guy that perhaps GhengisFarb will at least be nicer to him (at the least) and think he can hoodwink him (at the best). Togas will end up being the one behind all the deals anyhow, so there's no change in policy.

Hell, play good-cop, bad-cop. Togas can be the "bad cop" who is tough about deals, and adaMada can be the "good cop" who plays softball with GoW and convinces his Master (Togas) that GoW isn't so bad and we can make deals with them. Especially if GoW gets an example of adaMada supposedly softening Togas' hard stance, GoW may start to rely on adaMada as their supposed "very good friend" capable of swaying the leadership of the RP Team.

As long as we keep our story straight and adaMada doesn't go off making promises that Togas won't keep (like Panzer32 did for GhengisFarb ), it should be workable.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Ninot
its silly, but its very plainly obvious that GoW are looking for a fight

that they 1) want to know what resources we might gain and 2) are jumping on the opportunity to label us dishonest.... it makes it very plain that they want a war.

They are scouting for an enemy. Wil they want to conduct war over the bounderies of a jungle? well maybe they'll get the idea that a swordsmen stack of 6 or so is all they need to cleave us up.


I dont personally think we can do anything to stop them from scouting and considering war with us. Even if we benefit from a trade with them, that will NOT stop future war. thats my opinion.

War with us makes so little strategic sense... they'd be wasting enormous production to bulid such a swordsman stack and then ND and Lux (who are right on top of them) can take over any territory taken from us (since they're in between) and there would be nothing GoW could do to protect their conquests... and THEN ND and Lux can jointly invade GoW.

It just doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't mean that GoW wouldn't do it... weren't not necessarily dealing with a "rational actor" here...

[E_T]

Do not forget who is also on their team. Aggie, who IMHO, will be in charge of their Military, is a person who can not be patient. Neither is GF. These are two things that we can take huge advantages of, their lack of Patience. Most everybody else will follow their lead.

But, that can also work against us, as they have been learning the art of being patient. But as long as we are mindfull of this, we should be o.k. If the act Irrationally, then they will be the one who make the big mistake and not us.

E_T

[adaMada]

I was about to send a message to Panzer, who (for all it's worth) is being warmer over the whole issue than Ghengis has (though he's obviously, like me, reading from a script his team's given him). The message'll have to wait till tomorrow AM, since these events are too much to process at one in the morning, and I'd rather not make it worse through some stupid screwup. (Sorry to delay things so long (been feeling really sick all day long) -- I tried to get Panzer in a chat earlier to resolve things more quickly, but he went offline quickly after, and it sounded like he had no further instructions beyond his last message.)

One or two quick replies to posts that have been made after Togas' last update.

Originally posted by Ninot
well war IS stupid if its just to stand our ground and beat our chest, see whos more cowardly.

but look at the options now

IF we give in an inch, we lose face.

IF we give them the tech without them leaving, they gain tactical miliatary info, technology, and good reason to attack us in the future, because we can be labeled as untrustworthy for thinking of keeping them out of territory that isnt ours yet.


IF we dont... we may still risk a fight, but they dont gain that tech, we dont lose face, and we are more certain they will attack us?

is that right?

Our best option is to look for some sorta diplomatic loophole and avoid the whole issue. If, for instance, we made another deal which happened to include an agreement to define our territory as the edge of that jungle, both sides could probably walk away happily, especially if the agreement was good for everyone.

Panzer did make one point in his PM -- we do have that nonagression pact. I might be optamistic, but I think it'll help us in a pinch, at least a little bit.

Originally posted by Arnelos
As for GhengisFarb personally... he's not very good at this... he's trying to dupe people into stuff in WAY WAY WAY too obvious a manner. As for his deciding to be upset about Togas being upset over the warrior in our "territory", I can see where he's coming from, but he's not very bright about it... seriously, the best thing he can do right now would be to salvage the relationship by offering Togas an incentive to let them explore the West coast (and call our bluff on that we can't stop them, but he's willing to be "nice" about it).

As it is, I don't see GhengisFarb, or many of the members of his team, having the insight to see this as the way out. They're calling our bluff alright, they just don't care enough about the strategic relationship to be very nice about calling our bluff.

I agree tha they're calling our bluff outright, but I think that we might be able to manuver them into the 'both sides benefit' thinking. Ghengis is rather overt, but he's not stupid, and his team isn't made up of idiots -- if we offer a deal which would also leave this issue in a stalemate, I think they'll probably bite (unless they're OUT for war, which I doubt).

From a broader perspective, GhengisFarb is looking for who he can hoodwink into being a "friend" because they're scared of others. If Legoland and ourselves coordinate on ND knowing what's really going on, it sure won't be ND (they won't EVER trust GoW after that one...). He's partially upset that he can't seem to hoodwink Togas and partially upset that Togas broke a deal with them (especially after Togas got upset for them breaking a deal with us).

Agreed. GoW wants a friend, and we've been messing them up with that. Having said that, it might not be a bad idea to let them think they can find a friend in us -- perhaps throw them a few softball diplomatic deals after this is resolved? (Assuming it comes out positively). I'm not saying we want to be that friend, but as long as they think we do, we gain manuverability.

I think making adaMada the ambassador is the perfect move. adaMada is such a nice guy that perhaps GhengisFarb will at least be nicer to him (at the least) and think he can hoodwink him (at the best). Togas will end up being the one behind all the deals anyhow, so there's no change in policy.

I'm glad you've got more confidence in me than I do . In all honesty, I've had no contact with Ghengis about anything PTW related -- the nice guy strategy is working better with Panzer, but I'm now worried that we shot ourselves in the foot with that last diplomatic incident by getting him in trouble. Either way, it is something we should use -- I've no problem stroking Ghengis' ego. If anything, I think an interesting strategy to try would be to refuse to fight him -- next time he goes off on some issue, to just calmly reply and smooth things over. I'm most curious as to how he'd reply to such a response -- think he'd soften up himself, push harder, or come out confused and disoriented? Might be interesting to try next time we're dealing with an incident where we don't care about the outcome so much...

Hell, play good-cop, bad-cop. Togas can be the "bad cop" who is tough about deals, and adaMada can be the "good cop" who plays softball with GoW and convinces his Master (Togas) that GoW isn't so bad and we can make deals with them. Especially if GoW gets an example of adaMada supposedly softening Togas' hard stance, GoW may start to rely on adaMada as their supposed "very good friend" capable of swaying the leadership of the RP Team.

I agree, and was trying to push that off at the start of the game (especially through the creation of a 'big bad anti-GoW party inside our government). Sadly, I messed that up a bit during the last diplomatic incident -- I think that Ghengis views me as a pawn of Togas (which, to be fair to him, I am ) and only useful for making things official, which will go through Panzer anyway. This may actually be for the best -- it means that very little of the true diplomatic communication between our teams is actually 'official,' and it frees us up from diplomatic concerns when we want to push an issue hard. When I write a PM to Panzer, I'm more obliged to be polite than Togas is in a message to Ghengis -- which is useful in getting them to know that we are serious and not to be toyed with. Basically, what Arnelos said -- Good Cop/Bad Cop.

As long as we keep our story straight and adaMada doesn't go off making promises that Togas won't keep (like Panzer32 did for GhengisFarb ), it should be workable.

As you've probably guessed, I've no intention of doing anything without either posting in this thread or chatting with Togas about it first . That's a GoW mistake, not a RPer one -- we're too well coordinated to have that problem . (That's one thing that should actually get easier as the game goes on -- right now there's a constant time pressure considering how quickly the game is turned around, but once the moves get more complex, that'll change.)

Will reply to everything else and have a diplomatic message for Panzer (probably mainly in reply to what he said before on the issue in general) tomorrow morning. If people think it would be best, I'll also establish contact with Ghengis -- see if I can't stroke his ego a bit and soften him up.

-- adaMada

[Togas]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Hell, play good-cop, bad-cop. Togas can be the "bad cop" who is tough about deals, and adaMada can be the "good cop" who plays softball with GoW and convinces his Master (Togas) that GoW isn't so bad and we can make deals with them. Especially if GoW gets an example of adaMada supposedly softening Togas' hard stance, GoW may start to rely on adaMada as their supposed "very good friend" capable of swaying the leadership of the RP Team.

If this can work, let's make it work. I need adaMada to work this situation as much as possible ... patient yet dilligent. Make sure they know that this is an utmost priority to you.

If we can get them OUT of our country I'd be willing to sell them Writing at some bargain basement price (find something that sounds reasonable and hard to resist) and not do the trade. However, only broach this as a last option in the negotiations.

Frankly, any tactic we use other than bribing is not going to work on these guys, as much as I keep hoping it will. Threats, embargos, etc will only piss them off and make them call our bluff. I hate, hate, hate bribery ... it sickens me but this may be our only viable negotiation method with GoW. We just have to remember that we get something out of this deal ... we get to keep our land secret ... at least from them. ND is scouting us out like crazy. Luckily, they scouted everyone else first.

Let me be clear, GoW is NOT trying to be our friend. They don't even know what that means. They're a competator, they see us as competition along with the others and they treat us at arm's length never trusting, always suspicious, always on guard. The only good news is that I'm sure they're treating everyone else the same. We just have to weather the storm until northern tension break out into conflict. We may have to suck it up and bribe a little to stay OUT of trouble, and let GoW sniff out trouble from another direction.

adaMada -- get them out of our land even if you have to "pay" them to leave with some sort of bargain deal. Do whatever it takes and then "convince" me to accept it.

--Togas

[DAVOUT]

We should not overreact to the situation, nor underestimate the opponent.
1. Ghengis says that there is nothing wrong in scouting outside our cultural boundaries : he is objectively right.
2. Can we prevent him to do so : partly, but not immediately.
3. Should we bribe him to leave : probably not; in scouting, he will just learn info immediately useless, and which will become public soon (already known by ND for the most part); bribing him, even discretely, would shown he was right, and he will do it again. We should continue to discuss trade on a normal basis, that is favorable for us.
4. We could limit our manifestation of displeasure in making the scouting difficult by assigning one or two additionnal warriors to the blocking of the scout. If he complains, we will use his own argument that there is nothing wrong in moving our warriors along his scout as long as we dont attack him.

[Togas]

Quick note: It is ALWAYS good to gab and chat and make friends with anyone from another team, particularly someone who is willing to gab back. I have had great success with Nimitz, Trip, and now this evening Jon_Miller. Although he initially was timid and didn't want to offer up much without first talking with him team and his Foreign Affairs guy, Betahound, he and I traded a few secrets and made like the best of friends, gabbing and swapping stories about trivial things with our teams, governments, the game, names of things, etc.

Any of you with a silver tongue and a knack for making friends should do so. A little harmless information swapped can often tell us a lot, especially if we collect it from many sources.

John confirmed that they are with GS on a continent, they have ONLY met GS, and they think GS has more techs than them. He assumed that GS had contact with other nations due to this fact, but I told him we didn't think so, but were not 100% sure. He would not confirm that they've blocked off GS, but did not dispute it when I talked about it. They have a thread discussing how to fight GS, but he says they also "hope to live in peace" with them.

They call their land Estonia. They have "no meaningful contact" with ND. He was nervous about talking to me without "getting a concensus" first, but said that he would get one with his team prior to our next chat. I offered to trade info with him on anything he'd like to know. Told them that we knew where most of the other civs are and had a pretty good idea of what the map looks like, etc.

We both indicated that we'd like to chat again, he felt it was good for our relations to chat more often. I agreed. We'll keep working on this budding "friendship" with them.

--Togas

[jdjdjd]

on the bright side - recent pm from BFM at Lux: we have an alliance -

Hello!

Keep us informed on the status of your Writing Research. It seems like an interesting ability to us. In the mean time, we're going to do the research on Mysticism.

Hopefully, we will speak to each other soon again!

BFM



quote:


Minister BigFurryMonster,

I have spoken to our Grand and Illustrious Despot, Togas, and he wishes that I clarify the following aspects of the agreement. Note: those as[ects not mentioned are agreeable to us.

quote:
* We will trade Horseback Riding (from LI) for Writing (from RP). This will be done as soon as RP has obtained Writing, which will be in about 12 turns from now.


While we agree this is a good idea, we can not commit definitively until we have Writing.

quote:
* LI will research Mysticism; RP will research another tech (possibly MapMaking) for those to be traded.


We will research Mapmaking, and LI Mysticism. We will have to clarify this trade when research is complete, as many variables can come into play.
____

Due to the many variables that will come into play over the turns leading to the discovery of all the techs involved in both aspects of the agreement, we feel neither LI or RP can commit to the trades mentioned specifically. We do want to maintain an open dialog with regards to tech trading and other matters with LI, and will always seek such trades once the techs are in hand. And should all things remain equal, the trades mentioned are ones we would complete with you. However, specific details should be worked out once the techs are available. I hope this is agreeable to you.

Please let me know if you have any questions or have anything further to discuss. Thank you for your trustworthyness and friendship.

Your humble servant,

jdjdjd - Ambassador to The Ottoman Empire from España

my pm is attached.

we have an ally
we currently have a larger military than GoW
what are they gonna do to us?
as for horseback riding & lux - i hear we have mysticism - maybe we can work out a deal with lux?

just a thought

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by jdjdjd

as for horseback riding & lux - i hear we have mysticism - maybe we can work out a deal with lux?

just a thought

No, Togas has said that he wishes to keep our Mysticism a secret for now.


On the GoW front, GhengisFarb had this to say in the email that sent us the save this turn:

I am suprised that you chose to break the tech trade
agreement we had made to trade Horseback Riding for
Writing but I would rather find out your team is
untrustworthy now than later.

It's a good thing I'm not involved in our diplomacy, because I can't stand his arrogance.

On the positive side, I believe GoW has already sufficient damaged their own reputation with ND and Lux that neither would believe a "RP has broken another agreement, they are untrustworthy" story.

[ruby_maser]

Who is our diplomatic contact? Genghis or Panzer? IIRC, Panzer is, right?

Perhaps, we should start creating a rift within their team about the hardline bullying tactics of Genghis and the respectful diplomacy of Panzer. Claim we are getting mixed signals and are wondering who is in charge. Maybe go straight to Donegeal with this.

Genghis' lack of statesmanship and ability to compromise might be of some surprise to the rest of his team. If we can spin this properly, we may be able to soften their position.

Otherwise, I am for full tech embargo against GoW. One which brings ND and Lux in as well. This should not escalate to war, but the info is too sensitive to them walk around freely. I hope we can send another group of warriors over there soon as a show of strength.

[Hot Mustard]

Panzer is their ambassador for us. GhengisFarb is the team leader - he won in a battle over Donegeal, IIRC. I don't know if Donegeal has an official position any longer, aside from being the team "administrator" - add and removing team members from their forum.

It would be interesting to see if we could chat with other GoW team members and see if they are all behind this "hardline" approach. (Donegeal, Aggie, Aro, UnOrthOdOx)

[Hot Mustard]

A very old post (Nov 1)in the original GoW thread by our leader that may very well come true...

Originally posted by Togas
I'll echo Ninot here. You guys may want to curb back your concept a little. If my Civ ran into this one, we'd immediately build up an army and pull in allies to try to crush it before it took our wine resources and women.

Maybe structure it as a more noble, proud, honorable civ that keeps it's word and heavily punishes transgressors. A civ that has no qualms in taking resources if a fair agreement cannot be reached. A civ that would be an excellent ally, and a horrible enemy.

Just something to think about. You never want to go into a game with other humans and be the "evil Civ" ... that kind of a bad reputation will make the game really difficult for you.

Unless you like that sort of challange. I dunno.

--Togas

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by Togas
Just something to think about. You never want to go into a game with other humans and be the "evil Civ" ... that kind of a bad reputation will make the game really difficult for you.

How is this for dropping hints?

There is an art to war but also an art to diplomacy as well. If conducting war remains your team's stated purpose, perhaps a bit more diplomatic subtlety and tact will make those wars easier to conduct