Diplomacy Thread

[Hot Mustard]

From the general forum earlier this evening:

GhengisFarb> I am very impressed with the Roleplay team today.
E_T> why?
GhengisFarb> I thought they were going to declare war on us.
E_T> What, and break our non Agression Pact
GhengisFarb> Who knows?
E_T> GF, the thing is that, we want to keep the agreements that we make. I know that Togas was a bit upset and I really think that he had gone a bit over board, but I really don't think that he wants to break an agreement that was hard fought to make
E_T> Sometimes he can get a bit "dominering (sp)".
GhengisFarb> E_T, but what about the Writ/Hors Back trade? That wasn't honored?
E_T> GF, can't trade something that we are still researching
E_T> GF, I don't know exectly how much longer we have until we do get Writing, I'll have to check the report, if they put that in that is
E_T> I think it's about 10 turns or so, but don't quote me on that, because I'd have to hunt through the reports.. :/
GhengisFarb> Wow, your that far away? I thought it would be much sooner.
E_T> I don't have the PTW game yet, so I just do the RP stuff, when I can.
E_T> I wish I could get a little bit more involed, but I don't have the game to really get as involved as I'd like to.
GhengisFarb> Oh
E_T> But atleast we are heavy on the RP, so I can get by....
GhengisFarb> With all your analysts I'm sure they post most everything you need in your forums. Arnelos likes to make analysis
E_T> Oh c**p, that cat's throwing up on the Carpet, I've got to go
GhengisFarb> That goodness for hard wood floors
E_T> Arn's hed problems with his ISP until just recently, got to go
* E_T has left #apolyton
GhengisFarb> bye

With Panzer's PM, and GF's statements, it is clear they consider us as having broken a tech deal that we could not possibly have honoured or dishonoured yet - as we don't have Writing. Our communication with them definitely broke down on that point somewhere.

[Ninot]

If it has come down to nothing more than a communications error, than we are saved.


however, it truly does suprise me that anyone could think we would declare war.

even a warmongerer should have more sense than to expect a war at such short notice.

[Togas]

I'm *this* close to just closing down all foreign relations with them for X number of turns or until another Togas takes the throne because I am sick of being forced to backpeddle diplomatically and kiss their ass.

(Just erased most of this message as it was turning into a rant)

1) NO tech deals with GoW until they are out of our land PERIOD. They have no legitimate reason to be here. They are snooping, tresspassing, and harassing my people. I will reopen trade with them AFTER they leave, and if they want a PR war, we'll give them one. We can be just as mean and spiteful and deceitful as they are.

2) I authorize us to create a .jpg of Cow Valley ONLY. Please post it for review. Please use an older copy, one that doesn't have our most recent maps on it. I am willing to say THIS is our claim. The .jpg must not include lands south of the Highlands.

3) This image will be sent to them AFTER they agree to leave and start leaving, including the tresspassor north of Madrid.

3) adaMada remains ambassador at this time.

4) adaMada does everything he can to chat with them in public instead of sending PMs. I think we'll do better in face-to-face discussions than over PM with this issue.

5) Once we HAVE Writing, we will not TRADE them writing, but we will sell it to them. If they want to ***** about this, tell them "Sorry, but we already have Riding." When they ***** some more, tell them, "If you don't want to buy it, we understand. If you don't want to buy tech from us in the future, that's fine." and walk away.

Result = They go PR nightmare on us, and we use our best spin artists to turn it on them. We still have Horseback Riding, they still DON'T have writing. In the end, they lose the most.

--Togas

[Arnelos]

No need to 'fire' adaMada, injecting some level of humanity into this mess is probably just what the doctor ordered...

Everyone's fallible. This might even break the ice... who knows?

[DAVOUT]

I recall that the exchange of minimap was questionned by other teams. The exchange of maps before Mapmaking would not comply with the game rules. As this was suggested by panzer, we can use this argument against them.
In a cold reply we could also mentionned that they have made a specialty of twisting our words (this expression was used by GF in a joke on the general forum), such as refusing to deliver a tech that we dont have.
It is quite clear that we must reduce sharply the volume of diplomatic correspondance with people twisting any sentence we write. We can instead adopt a businesslike attitude, and to begin with review the PM or whatever BEFORE they are send.

[Hot Mustard]

Togas has created the following painting of El Valle de los Torros:



What do we think about sending this to GoW?

[DAVOUT]

I object, unless we post on the main forum asking opinion on the subject, such as : We have been offered by Gow to exchange jpg maps before Mapmaking, but we think it is not in the spirit of the game. We would like a confirmation.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Arnelos
No need to 'fire' adaMada, injecting some level of humanity into this mess is probably just what the doctor ordered...

Everyone's fallible. This might even break the ice... who knows?

We could say as well that this mess was mainly caused by an excess of humanity. The GF specimen is playing with our conception of diplomacy.

[Togas]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
It is quite clear that we must reduce sharply the volume of diplomatic correspondance with people twisting any sentence we write. We can instead adopt a businesslike attitude, and to begin with review the PM or whatever BEFORE they are send.

This I wholeheartedly agree on. I have ceased making any comments or remarks back to GF via email. For a time he send a comment or question with every save he sent over and I often wrote him back. These informal exchanges are the source of the alleged "tech deal" ... and unless anyone can find me proof elsewhere, I think this is where it comes from.

Frankly, all of this "tech deal" chatter was about as official as our 4-way tech alliance. A lot of talk about how it sounded like a great idea, but never any promises or signatures or whatnot. Nothing more than a "Sounds great, let's do it." However, those vague promises have been relied upon by GoW and even if we try to explain our way out of it, they'll still have bitter feelings towards us.

I'm going to make sure that we no longer have any unofficial, casual deals made. All deals will be done through the diplomats through proper channels, always. We may also want to bring this matter to the public forum to some degree. Perhaps not "cry foul" but state that we'd like to set up some groundrules for what is official and what is not, given that everyone's nation works differently and just become one guy tells you something, that doesn't mean that THE TEAM has made a deal with you.

I should not be the one to set such a plan in motion, perhaps Davout would be better suited for it.

--Togas

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by Togas

I'm going to make sure that we no longer have any unofficial, casual deals made. All deals will be done through the diplomats through proper channels, always. We may also want to bring this matter to the public forum to some degree. Perhaps not "cry foul" but state that we'd like to set up some groundrules for what is official and what is not, given that everyone's nation works differently and just become one guy tells you something, that doesn't mean that THE TEAM has made a deal with you.

I should not be the one to set such a plan in motion, perhaps Davout would be better suited for it.

--Togas

I have started the Standard Trade Format thread for precisely this purpose. Davout and everyone else is encouraged to help discuss and refine the format.

[Arnelos]

This is starting to sound too legalistic even for the way in which RL diplomacy is conducted...

The problem we have here is GhengisFarb, not that our diplomacy is too informal. Informal diplomacy is generally BETTER, the problem we have is that GhengisFarb's desire to be provocative is greater than his desire to serve his own interests In short, we're not dealing with an entirely rational actor

If we have to be more legalistic with GoW, so be it. But that's no reason to handicap ourselves with everyone else!

[adaMada]

Togas,
Three questions.

1) Should I admit that there is land to the south of us, or should I simply state "We have a .jpg of the land we are claiming as our territory. This is the fertile land close to our capital that we are currently in the process of settling, and we ask you to respect that." (Or something along those lines). The .jpg makes it clear that there is land to the south, however -- claiming our backs are to the wall probably won't work. Indeed, I've got a nasty feeling that this whole message from Panzer was caused by the fact that they're looking at the map and know that the continent's too small if the sea's directly behind us.

2) Should I challange them on this trading issue? I can say something along the lines of "There must have been some misunderstanding; though I understand that our teams have had informal discussions on possible trades (this being one possibility), I don't remember any official agreement going through on the issue. If such an agreement has, I apologize, and please point me to the correct message." That does make us sound a bit jackassy, but it'll firmly establish the "it's not binding unless it goes through the right channels" route.

3) They're asking for the map before they move, that they know which direction they can move in. If we don't want to give them the map itself, can we say something along the lines of "You may retreat your warrior to the north, north east, north west, or north (making up the directions for now), which will start you on a path that will bring you clear of our territory."

I'll try to hammer out something later and post it here for public review/changes/corrections.

-- adaMada

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Arnelos
This is starting to sound too legalistic even for the way in which RL diplomacy is conducted...

The problem we have here is GhengisFarb, not that our diplomacy is too informal. Informal diplomacy is generally BETTER, the problem we have is that GhengisFarb's desire to be provocative is greater than his desire to serve his own interests In short, we're not dealing with an entirely rational actor

If we have to be more legalistic with GoW, so be it. But that's no reason to handicap ourselves with everyone else!

About diplomacy

This is to clarify my own understanding about informal and formal diplomacy.

The diplomats accomplish two tasks:
- intelligence gathering through chats, PM or any other means in the view of learning what the competing civs are doing, what they want, what they fear, and ideally what they are going to do. This is done consistently by ambassadors and FAM, and therefore is official if informal and not committing. Another part of the intelligence is handled by unofficial persons outside the diplomatic area.
- Negotiation of treaties consisting of designing and finalizing agreements on a specific project. This can be named the formal diplomacy. It must be noted that the writing of treaties should be preferably delegated to some experts we have in the team, after all pertinent data have been collected by the ambassadors. Treaties commit the parties in trying to reduce ambiguities potentially hidden in any agreement; remaining detrimental ambiguities are backed by our military strength.

We see that there is no contradiction between formal and informal diplomacy but obvious complementarities; the informal diplomacy prepares and often is the origin of treaties.

Arnelos, do you agree ?

[DAVOUT]

This could be posted on the main forum under the title: The Roleplay team declares

In order to reduce, and hopefully to suppress, the misunderstandings resulting from errors in transmission, improper wording, misinterpretation and twisting of words ( ), the Roleplay team declares that all commitments resulting from written treaties bearing the Ropleplay seal (currently held by Togas) will be totally met.

Note : This could be made cooler in adding a dozen causes for misunserstanding

What do you think ?

[pikesfan]

Re, the image:

I think blacking out the name of Pamplona will make things look suspicious. We can black out the numbers and the build, but I think we should keep the name, especially as they will be able to see it anyway if they walk over from Madrid.

Nevertheless, I don’t think giving them an image is a good idea. It will only encourage more outrageous behaviour in the future so they can make us give away more goodies.