Diplomacy Thread

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Togas

Originally posted by Arnelos
if ND were to go to war with Lux, the calculation on Lux's part is that the GoW and RP Team vultures will start circling the ND corpse...

Lux is doing this because they think they can get away with it.

I absolutely agree. Who is going to stop Lux? Us? We're their allies. They think we're going to join them and take a city or two ourselves. They think it's in our best interest to kill ND because ND is a threat to our Cow Valley expansions! They probably think they can easily bribe in GoW and ally in us, and jointly crush ND.

I suppose my point is that what we CAN do is to kindly point out to them that their calculation is, in fact, a MIScalculation. Glory of War will stab them in the back and they'll do it both because it's the obvious thing to do AND because ND will likely pay them to do it (though Glory of War needs no encouragement).

Also share with Lux Invicta what Glory of War told us about that Horseback Riding "treaty" and the "Technology Alliance". Use it as an example of the fact that GoW are liars... and not very good ones at that No need to embelish it or anything... just share the PM/PM's as they were written. It should speak for itself as long as they find it believable (a factor we can't really control).

I'm sure Lux Invicta will find it interesting that Glory of War is claiming that treaties exist which prevent them from sharing tech with us that in fact do not exist. When I laid out the possibilities of what I figured GoW might be up to, I honestly didn't figure they'd be so abjectly stupid as to miscalculate SO BADLY to make up treaties out of thin air.... as though we don't communicate with the other teams

Seriously... I honestly find it difficult to wrap my mind around the concept of Glory of War being THAT stupid! Do they WANT everyone to gang up on them?!? Then again, this is GhengisFarb.... and his attempts at "manipulation" have always been rather... overdone. Something tells me that Unorthodox might have been smarter than this... a pity for GoW that he wasn't around.

They decided from the outset that they didn't want to deal with the vagueries of diplomacy and just wanted a good fight... they may get just what they asked for

I agree with Togas, however, that ideally we should wait on war until we are more built up. Once we reasonably have our home area settled and others have reasonably settled their areas, a coalition war to rid the world of the Glory of War may not be such a bad idea. By then, we'll be able to see relative sizes of empires and be able to determine which team (Lux or ND) we want to get various shares of the available land and are willing to give us more territory to compensate for our assistance.

We'll see...

[E_T]

Originally posted by Crousto
Well, looks like Lux isn't aware that they agreed with GoW to not trade Horseback Riding with us
Either Lux is taking GoW for fools by breaking a 'non-disclosure agreement' about Horseback Riding, or GoW is making the most stupid diplomatic move ever by telling us such an obvious lie.

Or, Lux could be taking us for fools with that deal.

E_T

[E_T]

Tech Trading - the possibility for them to steal it.

I'm still learning how the diplo screen works in the PBEM, but I beleave that there is the possibility of our tech being stolen from us.

If we go and start the tech trade prosess & offer up Writing (or Mysticism) and they go and accept without sending anything back, doesn't that mean that they would get the tech for free, or does it come back to us for final approval??

The reason that I'm asking this, is that, with the tech non-disclosure deal that Lux is supposed to have with GoW, if we go and trade them Writing for Riding, but at the last minute, Lux opts out and sites their Agreement with GoW and takes our tech and then gives us a promice to gift us their next tech. THis would go with that tech deal that they had wanted earlier.

If we do the next tech deals, we need to make sure that Lux starts the process and so that we can insure that they don't back out on us.

Eta Tamali

[E_T]

Instead of ND sending us a screen shot, we can ask them if they will allow 1 Conscript (or Reg) Warrior to enter their Territory and so that we can see for ourselves. We'll promice to stay out of the way of their troop/worker movements. THis way, we aren't violating an agreement with Lux, about exploring north (technically) but are observing the concers of our Neighbor and our ally (and making sure that our Alliance with Lux is not abused).

We should offer the same alliance to ND, that we have with Lux. This would also try to prevent a Lux-ND conflict. THis will also allow us to opt out of those alliances, per the clausing, if one does erupt up there.

Eta Tamali

[Crousto]

Originally posted by E_T
If we go and start the tech trade prosess & offer up Writing (or Mysticism) and they go and accept without sending anything back, doesn't that mean that they would get the tech for free, or does it come back to us for final approval??

No, both players have to set their status on 'accept' to complete the trade. You can send a proposition without setting your status on 'accept'. And if you change something in the trade, the other player has to accept it again.

[Aidun]

Posted by ETWe should offer the same alliance to ND, that we have with Lux. This would also try to prevent a Lux-ND conflict. THis will also allow us to opt out of those alliances, per the clausing, if one does erupt up there.

But I still think that it would be good if we would inform lux tactically of our increasing friendship with ND, thus they will expect us to sign us treaty and not take US for cheaters and betrayers.

If Jdjdjd or Togas want it, I can do so through my informal relationship to BFM. Talking pretending loose is a strong diplomatic weapon.

Aidun Cian

[DAVOUT]

If we were in the position of ND, we would certainly try to convince GoW and Lux that we are not the good target but that Spain is. Two arguments : the histograph shows that the biggest civ is Spain even if the average score says that ND is first, and Spain has a lot of space to expand (that their scout has explored), whereas ND has not much; so in a near future, Spain will dominate the continent.

These arguments are certainly well received by GoW, and ND is possibly not happy to see that Lux is (perhaps) a bit reluctant to accept them. Then, we can understand that ND does not want to be the spearhead of our diplomatic offensive to isolate GoW.

We can adapt our stance as follows :
- stop campaigning for the isolation of Gow; since it appears that friendship is out of reach, we will make ordinary business with them;
- reinforce the alliance with Lux by all means;
- insist for negotiating a formal treaty with ND, at least of non aggression;
- monitor our military to be average compared to any of the three who is the strongest;
- lower our profile on the histograph by building workers.

IMVVHO.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Arnelos
They decided from the outset that they didn't want to deal with the vagueries of diplomacy and just wanted a good fight... they may get just what they asked for

At this pace, they wont be getting a good fight. When the fight comes, it will be a quick and dirty one, i expect. But thats besides the point

- stop campaigning for the isolation of Gow; since it appears that friendship is out of reach, we will make ordinary business with them;

While I agree GoW issolation will be hard right now, as it is still our word against theirs, and us being the big guy in the south, we have less in common then the three up north.

However

I disagree on "ordinary business" terms with GoW. We must watch them with a very suspicious eye. It is too obvious they plan for war, and I am expecting we have not seen the last of GoW militarymen of this era.

As for what terms we SHOULD take up them business wize, i think we should cut them out of tech deals as much as we can, even if it only profits Lux. Why should we blatantly help one and not the other?

we havent CAUGHT Lux in a lie. we've caught GoW, and we can FINNALY pin them to that, just as they thought they had us when they claimed we backed out of a deal. We can bend GoW over and do what we please with them diplomatically, and free of guilt. Will there be military reprecussions? I think there will be regardless of how we treat them. But as they are already waving a finger at us and calling us the odd one out, we should have no problems doin the same with them.

Isolation? No, but we can certainly give them a hard time.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by E_T
Tech Trading - the possibility for them to steal it.

I'm still learning how the diplo screen works in the PBEM, but I beleave that there is the possibility of our tech being stolen from us.

If we go and start the tech trade prosess & offer up Writing (or Mysticism) and they go and accept without sending anything back, doesn't that mean that they would get the tech for free, or does it come back to us for final approval??

FYI: This is impossible. Deals only go through if BOTH SIDES hit the "accept" button. I've played enough LAN games now that I know this for certain However, it IS possible that if a civ is dumb enough to hit the accept button for two deals both giving them the same tech, both deals go through whether or not the second civ is actually "giving them" the tech they now already have. So the rule of thumb is only accept a deal for a tech once

[Arnelos]

I concur, Ninot.

We need to use the weapon that GoW has so stupidly given us... they also removed any intention we might have had of not using it by their own uncompromising stance. If they want to play hardball, we can play hardball... they suck at it.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Arnelos
I concur, Ninot.

they suck at it.

I concur, Arnelos.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Togas

I'm getting concerned now with Neu Dem's lack of response to our latest PM about negotiating a border and working out some further agreements regarding settlements.

--Togas

Myleague...
If you take my advice, just put these negotiations on a bit of ice, for now. We would gain a lot more territory if we waited to make such a deal until we have the valid argument of "already having a city by the lake up north". Don't you think?



BTW:
I propose we should not worsen our relations to the GoW any further. According to the today ( relatively amusing) chat with Panzer, it is not clarified who are the tech-LIAR.
He says he is not lying, so Lux must be lying to us, or both are. I heard they are both suspected to be notorious liars.
Well, in my clan, lying is punished by death.

Anyway Sire, please do speak to him, cause he wanted audience with the dictatore himself. He can be accomodated in my Hacienda, where he will recieve great Squid meals and constant "protection", meaning suveillance...

Hmm, it could well be that Lux Invicti team who are the most devious lying bastards. They are suspected to be spineless maggots by some noblemen who have heard about them. (not that I have)

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by Togas

jdjdjd, talk to Lux about their alleged probing of ND and explain to them why attacking ND right now would only help GoW. Let them know that we are worried that GoW might betray both ND and Lux in such a war, and that GoW is the only nation that would gain from it. Also tell them that GoW claims that they traded Lux Horseback Riding and that there is a deal where Lux cannot trade it to us. Please have them verify that this is untrue and let them know that we are loathe to believe it but that Panzer insists that it is true.

--Togas

I sent BFM a PM as requested.

We have got to do something about this thread....I had to go back three pages to catch up and weed out Togas's orders. Can we stop overanalyzing every iota of information? Or at least We have got to separate the Ambasador's orders and discussions from the Analysis.

Also...Let everyone think we believe everything they say. Lets not believe a word anyone says. Lets believe that someday the whole North will try to settle our lands.

Finally, are we researching Mapmaking next and can I tell BFM that.

[Ninot]

IDEA!

GoW says Lux has had Horseback Riding for a while

Lux says it stilll is waiting for it, so they can trade it to us for Writing

BOTH teams want Writing, but only Lux claims it still doesnt have Horseback Riding

SO.........


We tell Lux we will GIFT them Horseback Riding immediately, as we have stumbled upon it as a Goodie Hut, or something like that

if they decline, we then know GoW has always been faithful other than the probing warriors

if they accept, we still get Horseback Riding for GoW and be all happy with them, but prepare for a war with them ASAP.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Ninot

We tell Lux we will GIFT them Horseback Riding immediately, as we have stumbled upon it as a Goodie Hut, or something like that

revision

say our relations with GoW have improved, and we are getting Horseback Riding threw a gift. ask Lux if they want it as a gift. if they say they have it already as a similar gift, who do we trust

i say GoW