Diplomacy Thread

[Ninot]

Ghengis has told me in private now that Lux has promissed to trade them Mysticism for the Horseback Riding they have already received

and, in Ghengis words, this would happen 10 turns from now.

edit: from logs and all we can manage, no RP members EVER mentioned mysticism around GoW. So this is pretty legit, IMHO.

[Togas]

This is NOT legit.

Trip has been talking up researching Mysticism next for a while now, after he finished researching Horseback Riding. His plan, in his words, is to go to Monarchy. He'll whore each tech along the way.

ND's plan is to go for Mathematics and then Currency.

GoW needs a tech they can whore around. They'll go for Construction.

GoW is assuming we'll take up the Lit tree, which is likely because in our very brief "fourway" tech alliance talks last month, I suggested this sort of thing to Ghengis, and we have the jump on writing.
Funny thing is, I wrote Ghengis back when he proposed it (and proposed that GoW research mapmaking). I highly doubt anyone else did, but since I actually followed up on it they know that we were "interested" in it and are trying to trick us into thinking that it occured behind our backs to add to our paranoia and defeat in not being their lapdogs.

Let it be known, I wish that we were playing SMAC so that when we finally destroy the last GoW city I can watch GhengisFarb imprisioned in an electric chamber and hear his screams as he is tortured to death.

I stopped reading the chat logs from today's RP-GoW chat because they made me retch. The lies, intimidation, and deception they casually toss out sickens me. Just read through their own contradictory comments and you'll find yourself laughing.

I don't mind if a few of you want to pretend that you buy into it, but if any of you actually start believing it, I will replace you with someone with more of a better bullsh*t detector.

--Togas

[Ninot]

myyyy mistake

what about my "idea" tho?

i was going on the presumption Trip WASNT researching Mysticism. but nothing lost really. if GoW still cant be trusted, then GoW still cant be trusted

im behind ya Togas

[Hot Mustard]

Read here for my two bits on the latest hullaballoo.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Togas
This is NOT legit.

Trip has been talking up researching Mysticism next for a while now, after he finished researching Horseback Riding. His plan, in his words, is to go to Monarchy. He'll whore each tech along the way.

ND's plan is to go for Mathematics and then Currency.

GoW needs a tech they can whore around. They'll go for Construction.

GoW is assuming we'll take up the Lit tree, which is likely because in our very brief "fourway" tech alliance talks last month, I suggested this sort of thing to Ghengis, and we have the jump on writing.
Funny thing is, I wrote Ghengis back when he proposed it (and proposed that GoW research mapmaking). I highly doubt anyone else did, but since I actually followed up on it they know that we were "interested" in it and are trying to trick us into thinking that it occured behind our backs to add to our paranoia and defeat in not being their lapdogs.

Let it be known, I wish that we were playing SMAC so that when we finally destroy the last GoW city I can watch GhengisFarb imprisioned in an electric chamber and hear his screams as he is tortured to death.

I stopped reading the chat logs from today's RP-GoW chat because they made me retch. The lies, intimidation, and deception they casually toss out sickens me. Just read through their own contradictory comments and you'll find yourself laughing.

I don't mind if a few of you want to pretend that you buy into it, but if any of you actually start believing it, I will replace you with someone with more of a better bullsh*t detector.

--Togas

I'll repeat what I just posted in another thread...

Originally posted by Arnelos
For what it's worth, I argued a similar perspective in our internal chat.

I agree with the others that it's risky to do so, but I have NO PROBLEM with obtaining Horseback Riding from Lux and Mathematics from ND in return for Writing while taking the 100 gold from GoW for it. Then, I have no problem trading around Mysticism and messing up their entire system.

Ultimately, we should try to REPLACE Glory of War as the tech middle-man. We should try to end this silly conflict between ND and Lux Invicta and convince them that GoW is the common threat.

But hey... I agree that GoW is willing to practically sell us their own firstborn son to make the Writing for Horseback Riding deal... it MIGHT be worth just ripping them off and then working to replace them as tech middle-man ANYWAYS

Make no mistake: Glory of War is the enemy. We might be able to potentially get along with them for now, but they remain the enemy.

As I argued in our internal chat, it is entirely possible that BOTH GoW and Lux are lying, but I'm convinced that GoW has to be lying about the Tech Alliance. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now. I so much as told them so (though in slightly veiled terms), which you can see if you read the entire chatlog.

I still believe that it's possible that Lux Invicta is lying to us. Personally, I don't think they have incentive to do so (it's just too stupid in this case... it's too easy to prove them wrong), but the same can be said for Glory of War. It's really stupid to lie to in such a bold manner, but we have to figure that they're really doing it when it comes to the Tech Alliance.

As I said in the chat, I have a very hard time believing that Neu Demogyptica would agree to the things that Glory of War is claiming they agreed to... c'mon... there's no way ND trusts GoW that much!

[ThePlagueRat]

:::GoW_Panzer32 wrote>
We need to find out what the Roleplay team wants in return for Writing when you finish it. We are saddened that you are not involved with the tech alliance the other three civs are active in and you are currently the only civ on the continent without Horseback Riding as we traded it to Lux 4 turns ago and to NeuDemo 2 turns ago and both of them declared in a treaty not to trade it to your team.

The important question now is:
Is this a lie, and have we been lied to before without knowing?


And if what panzer wrote is true, why would NeuDemo or Lux not want to trade Riding to us? Or else, why would Panzer need to lie to us?

- Perhaps are NeuDemo or Lux afraid of us, cause we are close to those horses. They probably know we can get very powerful if we play our cards right. And they know we will grab the horses, so they might be nervous and unwilling to give us military-techs...
Panzer has no other obvious reason to lie, than creating confusion, bad blood, and finally setting us up against Lux...

We need to seek the truth, and get evidence of the truth! :doitnow:

[Ninot]

Trip has stated theyve had HR for a short time now

hes stated they did have a trade agreement about HR, not to trade it to us in a certain circumstance.

[ThePlagueRat]

And... that means he has been lying to us before?

Or perhaps he didn't have it then? Or was pretending he hadn't got it... Surely he's plotting, but not exacly very well.

[Arnelos]

It seems that Gathering Storm is researching Writing and intends to trade it Vox Controli, who might then trade it to Lux Invicta, who we intend to trade Writing.

We should consult with Gathering Storm about us trading Writing to Lux and they trading it to Vox (if possible) at the same time and/or getting sworn agreement from each that they WILL make a deal with each of us (respectively) for Writing, thus minimizing the chance of either Lux or Vox to whore it to the other one and cut Gathering Storm or ourselves out of the deal.

This is risky, as Gathering Storm could just try to screw us over. However, somehow I think Gathering Storm might not do that on their very first real deal with us ... would be a Glory of War level of miscalculation... one I'd count on them being smarter than trying.

Just an idea...

[Togas]

Originally posted by Arnelos
We should consult with Gathering Storm about us trading Writing to Lux and they trading it to Vox (if possible) at the same time and/or getting sworn agreement from each that they WILL make a deal with each of us (respectively) for Writing, thus minimizing the chance of either Lux or Vox to whore it to the other one and cut Gathering Storm or ourselves out of the deal.

This needs to be checked into. Jon_Miller said that he planed to get it from Lux, but there are reasons why they would seek a trade with Lux over GS ... the main one being the rivalry between the two.

If GS is researching it, and if they're close to getting it, I would not be opposed to agreeing to releaseing the knowledge at the same time as them to each of our respective continents.

--Togas

[adaMada]

Togas,
Do you have any thoughts on the deals GoW has offered us? They claim they won't have 100 gold in time to make the trade, and seem to want us to take Horseback from them -- doubtlessly trying to screw over lux. Having said that, the deals themselves aren't bad -- the deal with Lux is just Writing for HB, right? It seems like they're offering us a decent deal -- though Dejon is making an interesting suggestion in that Writing is a very valuable tech, it's worth noting that the deal with Lux (if I remember correctly) is actually worse.

Information on the deals:

Originally posted by adaMada
Potential Deals GoW's offered us:
1. 20g and HBR now for removal of warriors and writing in 4 turns
2. HBR for removal and writing in 4 turns.
3. HBR now and 60 gold in 4 turns for removal and writing in 4 turns.
4. 35 gold for removal and writing in 4 turns.
** writing in 4 turns means as soon as we get it **

Notes:
They've clearly made option four lousy to prevent us from taking it, but I could probably turn around to them and say "We take option three, but don't bother to send us HBR." Even if they know it means we'll be cheating on em, I don't see how they can refuse .

More summary information for everyone too busy to read the whole chat will be posted later, but right now, I wanna get the logs up.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Togas -- After you left it came out that they don't have 100 gold, and they won't have 100 gold for some period of time after we have writing. They offer a variaty of other combinations. They've also gone as far as to state that, if we make the trade with Lux, they MIGHT be able to declare war on us -- in their minds, it's a gray area. They'd def. be able to declare war on Lux, since Lux'd be breaking an agreement we have with them. It's fairly moot, since (in my opinion) they won't declare war on us, even if they feel they can -- a two way war would be bad, and I'm fairly sure everyone in the chat knew it . For all it's worth, Ghengis was there for a while, and he was acting fairly reasonable as well. Will post any other desired information tomorrow, but it's 12 AM my time, and I'm not sure I'm literate anymore .

On an unrelated note: I hate to bring up 'bad' items, but yesterday you announced your intention to replace me if our next meeting did not go well. I understand that, and do not dispute it at all -- if nothing else, fresh blood probably would help our relationship with GoW (assuming we want to have one), and it is undeniably your right to choose who shall represent you. Having said that, there are clearly differing opinions as to weather yesterday's chat was successful or not. I do ask one small thing, however -- if your intentions right now are to replace me, please let me know. If it would please my lord, I'd rather resign with dignity, and I think it'd be best for all involved.

Finally, let me thank everyone who showed up at the GoW chat last night. Your guidance and support was superb, and it’s great to have such a skilled and friendly team to call myself a member of.

-- adaMada

[Hot Mustard]

Obviously it is up to our Lord on whether your head will roll, but in my opinion:

1) Our relationship with GoW will always be stressed due to a) their their game outlook; b) GhengisFarb; and c) Togas. The latter two having great pride.

2) The chat was a success, IMHO. They got their "proof" against Lux. We were offered various trade deals, some of which include techs and them leaving our lands - both of which are good. Both teams got to vent, which is good. We also both demonstrated that the teams can talk.

3) We are all learning to play an all human Civ game. There will be missteps, lessons learned, and oversights - that is how you gain wisdom.

[Togas]

Potential Deals GoW's offered us:
1. 20g and HBR now for removal of warriors and writing in 4 turns
2. HBR for removal and writing in 4 turns.
3. HBR now and 60 gold in 4 turns for removal and writing in 4 turns.
4. 35 gold for removal and writing in 4 turns.

These are excellent results.

I want to smooth over things with Lux Invicta, and I think we'll take option #3.

After Trip told me last night that They agreed that they wouldn't trade us HBR if GoW had a deal with us, I think we have a win-win situation.

We trade with GoW, which makes them happy. They give us tech AND cash. They leave our country without ever seeing the Promised Land (only viewing mountains and deserts). We help Lux save face with GoW and sell them Writing at a reasonable price.

I have no intention of replacing adaMada. He weathered a very difficult diplomatic storm and came out in the end with a result that is very favorable to Spain.

Only thing: add a "no trade writing for X turns" clause. Let's start by saying 20 turns and if they disagree, 10 is our minimum.

--Togas

p.s. I will copy these instructions into the new thread created for Diplomacy orders.

[ThePlagueRat]

Good work adaMada...
But if we pick #3 now, will they not try to counter it and make things more complicated? (As in typical Arabic bargaining traditions)

I recall from the chat that Panzer requested us to counter their first offer about RemovalofWarrior.
But since our failure to respond quickly, he threw in Riding... Ok, and now these options came.


When we respond to it, they might have to think about it once more and discuss it in their forum. Then, they might agree its not a fair deal anyway...
It's just something Panzer came up with during the chat.
Hmm, does he have a mandate to make any deals he wishes to?



BTW: A popular phrase:
- Don't sell the fur berfore the bear is shot

[adaMada]

Togas,
PMmed Panzer asking for a no-trade clause -- shouldn't be any trouble to get one. I started with an 'asking' price of 30 turns (based on the information in the offical thread, which set a high of 40) -- if they'll give it to us, all the better (we can always relieve them of it should we desire to for any reason), and if they won't, we can perhaps still get a bit more than twenty. As soon as I get information from Panzer on their, I'll post in the 'official' diplomatic thread for recordkeeping purposes -- it'll be good to have all official correspondence in one place.

If they accept the no trade clause on Writing, should I go ahead and agree to Option #3 -- get their warrior moving ASAP ? Also, do we have any objection to not trading Horseback if they ask for it? I can't think of any, considering everyone else around us has it, and I doubt we'll make contact with someone new to our continent within the next thirty turns...

ThePlagueRat,
I think Ghengis agreed to the trade deal. Panzer has much more power over there than our ambassadors do over here -- he's in charge of all diplomacy until UnOrthO gets back -- and Ghengis is one of the primary leaders of their team. He may have to return to his team for final confirmation, but I'd be supprised if that's truely a barrier for him.

-- adaMada