Glory of War - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

I should be available for the most of today... though I may be a bit sleepy, if it is too late - last night, the chat ended up around 2am and I had less than my regular dose of sleep.

I would set the time for now only - we will see if Poly is stable enough for the chat. If not, we'd go somewhere else.

Don't worry, Leo - we will navigate you through.

[redstar1]

Yeah I think a chat is best. I am intrigued however about GOW's fear in all of this. i wonder how ND are seeing this....

[Tiberius]

In 4 turns we must switch to a wonder in Legopolis.
We are 24 turns away from the Sistine, so basically we could tell GoW that they can use Sistine for at least ?? (well, we don't want to tell them exactly, so let's say, 15 or 20?) turns starting from now. That should be enough for them. I don't think that Invetion will take more than that.
Besides we can't give them Music Theory yet, since we don't have it Not only that but we won't have in the next ~ 15 turns (or more if we want to save some money).
But we know they can use the Sistine prebuild as long as they want it

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
In 4 turns we must switch to a wonder in Legopolis.
We are 24 turns away from the Sistine, so basically we could tell GoW that they can use Sistine for at least ?? (well, we don't want to tell them exactly, so let's say, 15 or 20?) turns starting from now. That should be enough for them. I don't think that Invetion will take more than that.
Besides we can't give them Music Theory yet, since we don't have it Not only that but we won't have in the next ~ 15 turns (or more if we want to save some money).
But we know they can use the Sistine prebuild as long as they want it

That was exactly my thinking. I did not want to tell them that Sistine's is a very safe prebuild for the foreseeable future. OTOH, I did want to give them a guarantee good enough to make them happy using it as a prebuild even if we do not tell them plainly we are not building the Chapel yet.

I know we will never need to give them the Music Theory.

[ZargonX]

The wheels are in motion...

MasterZen> you guys want to start? or shall I?
ZargonX> Why don't you start
MasterZen> ok, it was just a small petition, we wanted to know if you could send us a pic of Inchon in RP hands
ZargonX> I think we can get that
ZargonX> I'll consult with the others, but I don't think anyone would have a problem with it...
Sharpe> nope np
MasterZen> cool, we're about to unleash diplomatic hell on GS, and we need that as "evidence"
ZargonX> Ah, gotcha
ZargonX> That all on your end?
MasterZen> pretty much
ZargonX> Ok, then I'll start my pitch
ZargonX> We have been having much discussion in Lego recently about the GS situation...
ZargonX> and, we've come to a decision, or sorts...
ZargonX> *of sorts
Panzer32>
ZargonX> recent events have lent credence to the fact that GS is planning to invade Bob..
MasterZen> :drumroll:
ZargonX> shifting forces, RP shennangans, etc.
ZargonX> and, as we've said before, we will not stand for a large GS presence on Bob
ZargonX> so... :drumroll grows louder:
MasterZen> hehehe
Panzer32> :reallyexpect:
ZargonX> we are planning to announce, quite publicly, that if GS takes any more than X amount of cities (x is as of yet to be determined)...
ZargonX> we will be forced to intervene directly
MasterZen> x=3
ZargonX> Let me clarify, though...
ZargonX> we cannot assist you with your or ND's conflict with RP...
Panzer32> yes
ZargonX> however, if GS comes in force, we will be there to aid you, militarily
MasterZen> well, the truth is that this is much more than we expected. We are glad to have you on our side like this
* Sharpe has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
MasterZen> doh
ZargonX> he'll be back
Panzer32> just a clarification: is this takes and holds, or just has held at one time (assuming the former)
ZargonX> Well, it's more if they establish a "presence"
Panzer32> right
ZargonX> i.e., massive forces, or a set number of cities
MasterZen> we have unconfirmed info that GS has already landed forces
* Sharpe has joined #isdgsub
ZargonX> as do we
MasterZen> an RP "leak"
Sharpe> sorry my internet connection shorted out there
MasterZen> any idea where?
MasterZen> np
ZargonX> we do not have any idea of the location
ZargonX> just the rumor
Panzer32> we do know that GS has one knight that we've seen (toledo)
MasterZen> same as us...
ZargonX> We believe the Inchon switch was to shift forces to Eye...
ZargonX> but, that's just supposition..
ZargonX> it seems likely, though
Panzer32> does anyone have the game open?
ZargonX> not at the moment
Panzer32> basically if Inchon had a harbour they it could have been to get Iron
ZargonX> ah, also a possibility
ZargonX> hadn't thought of that
Sharpe> fairly certain no harbor in Inchon
MasterZen> me too, I doubt it
ZargonX> now, we figure the best next step is to hold a 3-team conference, with us, ND, and
you
Sharpe> there is one in Wittich City however
ZargonX> we will need a little time to manuever our forces into position, but GS will probably need the same as well
Panzer32> youre right, no harbour in Inchon
MasterZen> Zargon: thursday at 2 pm EST is our weekly chat with ND, perhaps you could join us this week...
ZargonX> actually, I think I can do that...
Panzer32> but I realize that RP can be getting iron anyways
ZargonX> or, if not me, I'm sure one of us Legoers can
MasterZen> sometimes ND has pressing issues on days other than thursday, but we usually have those chats at 2 EST
Sharpe> Vondrack could be available then too
ZargonX> Kloreep as well, probably
Sharpe> anychance of a Megachat on the weekend as well?
MasterZen> I'm always here
ZargonX> How is the RP situation looking?
ZargonX> I mean, are your forces making any headway?
MasterZen> well to put it bluntly, no RP forces in sight...
ZargonX> I heard most of them had retreated...
ZargonX> I guess they are planning to hold out in their core...
MasterZen> but Bilbao will be toast this turn, and Toledo the next
ZargonX> good, good... the less they can assist GS, the better
MasterZen> and hopefully New Madrid the turn after that if GS has yet to land...
MasterZen> we also suspect that RP is planning a huge redoubt in Pamplona which is where all the defending units are heading
Sharpe> they probably also want to protect their new southern cities
MasterZen> which means our best strategy is simply to go and threaten all their cities until they fall or are gifted to GS
MasterZen> our attacking GS will probably make them stop gifting, it's pretty obvious we don't care whether they are RP or GS cities, they will be taken
ZargonX> Yes, that will help...
ZargonX> better the cities are destroyed than even give GS an extra one-turn commerce boost
Sharpe> what we are concerned about is GS involvement on Bob, they are strong enough as is
ZargonX> Now, once we have a better sense of what GS is planning to move into Bob, then we can plan some more solid strategies...
ZargonX> but, I mostly wanted to take this opportunity to tell you that we will be there for you and ND, and to go boldly forth!
ZargonX> the GS menace cannot be ignored!
ZargonX> [/dramatic]
MasterZen> good, we were frankly prepared to go down as long as GS didn't win... this will definitely give both our teams a huge psycho boost
MasterZen> (us and ND)
Sharpe> Vondrack let ND know the same thing earlier today
ZargonX> we spoke with ND about this earlier, as well
ZargonX>
Sharpe> great minds think alike Zargon!
ZargonX>
MasterZen> and ND is even more suicidal than us... at least we tried to convince them to ignore GS, but they didn't give a damn!
ZargonX> heh, those crazy Germans
MasterZen> which is quite admirable
Sharpe> that was our idea too, go after GS and ignore the GS cities until later
ZargonX> well, the only way to stop GS is with force, at this point...
Sharpe> one concern we have is that as soon as Navigation is complete , GS will have the ability to invade us
ZargonX> so, hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, hit 'em often
MasterZen> I like the sound of that...
Panzer32> do we know what theyre researching?
MasterZen> supposedly banking I think...
Panzer32> probably going for democracy.
ZargonX> most likely
Panzer32> well were researching invention and were not going to give it to them
ZargonX> heh, excellent
Sharpe> though if GS gets a hint of our involvement they may shift gears towards Navigation instead
ZargonX> that's one thing they definately DON'T need
ZargonX> anyway, gentlemen, I'm afraid I've got to run
Sharpe> so it might be an idea to keep our involvement with you secret for now
ZargonX> but, we will talk further of such things in the near future!
Panzer32> ok, see you guys later!
Sharpe> Bye!
ZargonX> We'll look for you on Thursday, for sure!
MasterZen> cya!
MasterZen> cool
* ZargonX is now known as ZargonX|away
ZargonX|away> later!
* MasterZen salutes the Republic of Legoland for their bravery
Sharpe> ah you are making us blush
Sharpe> do you guys know what ND is researching? we don't have a trade agreement with them yet
Panzer32> I think they were doing engineering... think there done or almost done
Panzer32> but don't know whats next
Panzer32> we should coordinate to beat RP-GS
Sharpe> true, are you guys slowing down your research with the war?
MasterZen> nope
Sharpe> ah good!
Sharpe> agreed, the 3 of us might be able to beat GS and RP
MasterZen> at least not now... if GS invades our homeland we may be forced to
Sharpe> one advantage that we have is that a fair amount of GS and RP cities are still small
MasterZen> well, their only remaining big ones are Barcelona Zaragoza and Pamplona...
MasterZen> the others are taken or gifted
Sharpe> and GS has a lot of small ones in or near the former Vox area
MasterZen> soon they won't be able to support their army unless GS financially assists them
Sharpe> unfortunately GS is probably going to supply RP with iron
Sharpe> but they don't have an extra source of horses...
Panzer32> we have plans to take out Barcelona ASAP (only harbour)
Sharpe> re RP supporting their army, true, although they still have some good commerce squares
Sharpe> ah good, though I suspect then GS might build a city with a harbor on Bob, but that will take time
Panzer32> then we just take it
MasterZen> hehehe
Sharpe> hehe
Sharpe> well we are building up our military and the number of cities now rapidly on Legos,
so perhaps we will scare GS a bit with our sudden rise in the power graph
MasterZen> cool
MasterZen> we look forward to the day Lego overtakes GS in power
Sharpe> as do we
Sharpe> they are about 25 to 30% stronger than us economically right now , but that should be changing shortly
Sharpe> ND in comparison is still a little weaker than us even in their Golden Age state
Sharpe> well gtg, bye!
* Sharpe has left #isdgsub
MasterZen> RP seems strong but it's probably because of their cities
* MasterZen has left #isdgsub
* Panzer32 has left #isdgsub

My thoughts on the chat soon...

[vondrack]

There is only one thing I do not really like... providing the screenshot of Inchon in the hands of RP. Personally, I do not see a single reason to "unleash diplomatic hell" - whom we need to convince? Voxes are with us, no matter what. GoW & ND are our closest allies now. And GS & RP are our enemies now. So - what would such a "diplomatic hell" achieve?

I do not feel I wanna go through another story like the one with the last Voxian public announcement... these "diplomatic hells" are truly "hells"... for everybody.

Also - we should make clear what "little time" means in our terminology... not to have GoW expect our troops in 5 turns...

Otherwise, a good chat... it is surprising how much a simple assurance of support means for these warmongers...

[Kloreep]

After sleeping on the Inchon pic, I agree with vondrack. I don't see what it would accomplish, except pinning us as one of two possible screenshot takers (Vox would have been the only other team to see it in RP hands, and GS may consider them under our jurisdiction anyway).

[ZargonX]

Well, as long as it doesn't interfere with them attacking GS, I don't care if we don't give them the screenshot. I told them I'd have to take it to the team, so I can just play the "sorry, love to give it to you, but some people on the team just don't like the idea." That way we still come off friendly, with just a few paranoid holdouts (Sorry, don't mean to label you paranoid holdouts :) Anyway, I'll talk to them again about it and make sure it wasn't somethign they vitally needed.

[vondrack]

May I ask you to PM me when you are about to talk to them? I will hopefully get the PM within minutes and will try to be there, too.

Thanks.

[ZargonX]

Well, I usually catch MZ or Panzer late in the evening for me (during your sleep hours), but I will PM you nonetheless. I can't do any chatting from work, so that sort of cuts out my days now

[ZargonX]

Spoke with MZ about the picture:

-They basically want it for photo analysis.
-They want to see if GS will deny that they traded Inchon.
-They will not mention Lego
-The pic will not be posted unless we give them permission.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Spoke with MZ about the picture:

-They basically want it for photo analysis.
-They want to see if GS will deny that they traded Inchon.
-They will not mention Lego
-The pic will not be posted unless we give them permission.

1) Photo analysis? Huh?
2) If they deny that, then what? If they do not deny that, then what?
3) They do not need to - only two teams are capable of providing this information: us & Vox.
4) Oh, lovely...

I am feeling strongly against doing this:

1) They either trust us or not. If we say Inchon was in the hands of RP, that must be enough. They may check with Vox, if they want another confirmation.
2) The map itself does not carry any extra information beyond the simple "Inchon was for one turn in the hands of RP".
3) Them asking GS about this fact reveals that either us or Voxes provided them with this information. It warns GS of the fact that either us or Vox (but they will likely consider that all the same) are supporting ND+GoW, at least with intel. This blows our cover too early - we want GS to feel relatively safe with us... that is the only way to allow getting more info from them and to make them base their military plans on inaccurate assumptions.
4) The very fact of "trading" Inchon to RPers for one turn is nothing that could be held against GS - they are simply using the game mechanics in a smart way... not that I would consider that so great, but it is allowed (and our Voxian friends used the very same trick just few turns ago). It cannot be used to "harm" them diplomatically (besides - as I said in the previous post, I do not see any needs to harm them diplomatically).

OTOH:

5) The ONLY reason GoW may have to go (semi-)public with this I can think of is to make sure our relations with GS sour now and ND+GoW ensure we publicly end up in their alliance. While this is understandable from their PoV, it is not necessary and deprives us of the element of surprise. They will have to trust us.

[Tiberius]

Ahh, finally a courageous act from GoW ! (see their ultimatum to GS in the public forum). If things will go well, the Inchon shot won't have any importance.

Btw, Radek, I think we won't be able to keep secret our plans regarding our counter-GS policy. Maybe our military plans yes, but our support for ND+GoW against GS no. We should make a decision as fast as possible, how many GS cities we will tolerate on Bob. We will get involved in the public debate, I'm sure, and we will need an official position on this.

Something like: no more than 2 GS cities on Bob or otherwise we declare tech+trade embargo against GS. No words about military plans yet nor later. Also we should ask ND+GoW to keep the military part secret.

[vondrack]

Yeah, right, with The Glory of Manifesto, the picture thingy is no longer relevant, I guess. Note to self: make sure GoW/ND understand that if we tell them anything, it is meant to remain confidential and not a cannonball for their public announcements. At least in the future.

Here is what I believe we shall do:

1) PM or chat with GS - make it very clear that with accepting New Madrid, they and RP crossed the line between what we consider "balancing the power" on Bob and what we perceive as a full scale, aggressive invasion of Bob. Tell them we now believe RPers have decided to more or less resign from the game (New Madrid was one of the best RP production centers), giving whatever is left to them to GS. We do not see this as acceptable.

2) Depending on how GS responds, we shall either make our stance public or continue the negotiations privately, perhaps trying to arrange a "limited war", guaranteeing we would not attack their homeland in exchange for them not attacking us on Legos. If they accept, fine, if not, fine, too.

I am going to draft a message to GS. Will post it ASAP for comments.

[Tiberius]

Let's continue this in the Bob war thread.