Glory of War - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

There still is the least "thrilling" option... and that is: well, why not? Try putting yourself in GoW's shoes:

What would we gain by denying MT to Lego? They'd put us on their blacklist, as denying MT would be - rightfully - percieved as a hostile gesture. The only likely outcome would be Lego getting closer to ND, which are sort of drifting away from us since the end of The Great War. We would not really weaken Lego, as they would - in their GA - be able to easily research the tech on their own much faster than we'd be able to do ToG (and they said they would do it, which was no surprise...). Plus, there would be another team able to sell MT around (read: spoiling our prices, mucking up our own plans). So... what exactly would we gain by not trading MT to Lego? We'd have to get ToG from GS... but GS is not overly interested in MT due to their lack of saltpeter. So they would probably tell us to stuff it... OTOH, Lego is happy to trade us ToG for MT, even waiving the beaker cost difference - let's take it then and wait for a better opportunity to show them a cold shoulder.

[vondrack]

My chat with Master Zen yesterday. Nothing extremely urgent, but you may still want to read it, it's not a total waste of time:

Session Start: Thu Feb 26 22:19:15 2004
Session Ident: MasterZen
Session Ident: MasterZen (~raguil@200.92.196.25)
MasterZen: question: how long till ToG?
vondrack: I think it's according to the trade agreement - as outlined in it
vondrack: last turn, we were 3 turns from ToG, I think
MasterZen: would you perhaps be interested in trading Economics instead?
vondrack: Economics for Military Tradition???
MasterZen: yes
MasterZen: we have MT since last turn, we can offer it this very turn
vondrack: why would you want that??? what is Economics good for (with Smith's being already built)?
MasterZen: you built Smiths?? I thought it was being built...
vondrack:
MasterZen: hmm, you got it this last turn I suppose
vondrack: finished last turn
vondrack: yes
MasterZen: :P
MasterZen: btw
MasterZen: some of the guys in my team are rather pissed that Lego used the Sistine deal as a prebuild for Smith's
vondrack: why?
MasterZen: we had agreed on exclusivity for Sistine, not for it to be used as a prebuild
MasterZen: I can't say it was not part of the deal, I am just saying that some of us felt cheated
vondrack: sorry to hear that
MasterZen: in that case I'd assume that Sistine's is back on the table just in case we would want to build it, since that deal basically gave you Adam's
vondrack: nope, I could not agree with that interpretation, sorry
MasterZen: I see Lego wants a monopoly on GWs...
vondrack: not really - aside from Sistine's, there are no more medieval wonders we are interested in
vondrack: see, MZ, we could have used a different prebuild - a palace in one of our other cities
vondrack: we do have at least one other city with the same shield output as Legopolis
vondrack: using Sistine's made it maybe more convenient for us
vondrack: but it was not this possibility that allowed us to build Smith's
vondrack: plus, looking at our turn summaries, we did not really need a prebuild in the first place
MasterZen: well, how do we know you guys aren't using the palace for another prebuild?
vondrack: we are not
vondrack: you have my word for it
vondrack: ATM, we are not building, nor prebuilding any wonders
MasterZen: my point is that whether or not you would have gotten Adam's, every thing that "could've" been used for a prebuild could've been used for an extra wonder. I don't doubt that you could'nt have gotten Adam's without the prebuild, but perhaps there was something else that Lego wouldn't have been able to get if it hadn't used it
vondrack: like what?
vondrack: we built a 400-shield Magellan's
vondrack: and a 600-shield Smith's
vondrack: that's it
vondrack: you do not need that much to be able to build these two wonders
MasterZen: well, GoW wasn't planning on Sistine's anyway, so I guess it's a moot point ultimately, I just wanted to share our team's dissapointment (if you can call it that).
vondrack: thanks - really
vondrack: is there anything
vondrack: we could do to make you feel less, ummm, "pissed off", about this?
vondrack:
vondrack: disappointed I meant
vondrack: I can see that you are now trading techs with GS
vondrack: so perhaps techs are not what we could offer ATM
vondrack: maybe a bit later on
vondrack: anything else?
MasterZen: hmm, I dunno... foreign aid?
vondrack: what kind of?
MasterZen: nah, that was a joke
vondrack:
MasterZen: nah, I have a feeling we're going to be in for quite some building in the near future
vondrack: understood
vondrack: same for us
vondrack: btw... your military is weaker than that of ND
vondrack: I was surprised to find that out
vondrack: I thought it was the other way round
MasterZen: not after I get the save
vondrack: ???
MasterZen: upgrades
vondrack: ah, I see
vondrack: I keep forgetting about Leo's
* MasterZen thinks vondrack was thinking GoW was about to invade ND
vondrack: you are better off simply upgrading all along
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: but, yes, the idea did cross my mind
vondrack: after all, only one of us is known for Evil Plans(TM)...
* MasterZen looks at vondrack
MasterZen: I am a white peaceful dove these days
* vondrack looks at Master Zen
* vondrack can see a white peaceful dove
MasterZen: we have decided to change our name
MasterZen: GoB
MasterZen: Glory of Building
vondrack: ah, that's cool! )
vondrack: we can found a "block" then
vondrack: kinda like the old Soviet block
vondrack: this would be a "builder block"
MasterZen: we were thinking of Glory of Diplomacy but the acronym seemed a bit presumptous
vondrack: LoL
MasterZen: then there's... Glory of Micro-Managing (GoMM)
vondrack: oh.. are you into MM now, too???
MasterZen: aren't we all...
vondrack: I though that was GS' domain
vondrack:
vondrack: honestly... after learning all the MM trick in this game, I am kind of feeling bad to NOT do all the insane worker shuffling
MasterZen: micro-managing... it's the "in" thing to do nowadays, get with the fad
vondrack: yeah, the in thing
MasterZen: it's also the boring thing when you have 20+ cities...
vondrack: wanna talk about MMing 20+ cities? I could tell you STORIES about it
MasterZen: lol!
MasterZen: he who doth not micro-manageth doth not winneth
vondrack: howgh!
MasterZen: I enjoy early game MMing
MasterZen: at least in SP it sets you up for the medieval by which time you are so powerful you don't have to MM anymore and win the game
vondrack: ...unless you play a PBEM against other humans
vondrack: in which case, you are never free to forget MMing
MasterZen: yeah

...snip... chit-chat not related to PtWDG

MasterZen: it's fun turning a big but crappy empire into a powerhouse
vondrack: yeah, it is
vondrack: actually, Lego has been much like that
vondrack: we were quite big, but not stellar
vondrack: it's getting better now
MasterZen: we could tell by the score. What makes me wonder is why Lego didn't REX faster...
vondrack: we have never risked too much
vondrack: always been ready for an invasion
MasterZen: true
vondrack: trying to not overstretch
vondrack: that's what RP did
vondrack: they grabbed a lot of land, but were unable to keep it
vondrack: though, to be fair, if ND and GoW invaded Lego instead of RP, we'd have some pretty darn tough time to survive
MasterZen: interesting how the geopolitics of this very year are still shaped by the Vox-GS war, there are so many possibilites to think of it that war never happened
vondrack: VERY true
MasterZen: what would have helped Lego against us is that Lego would have gotten it's GA. It would have been quite an even war
vondrack: yeah, that's true
vondrack: and GS would probably grab their golden chance
vondrack: attacking you from the other side
MasterZen: yep, which is why we never considered it
MasterZen: it would have left us totally defenseless
MasterZen: however, had GS not become a superpower... there's also the question of Vox with 30+ Immortals... that's why I said, there are so many interesting ways this game could have branched off
MasterZen: post-game reports and "what if" scenarious will be very fun to read

...snip... more chit-chat

Session Close: Thu Feb 26 23:20:12 2004

Summary: for some reason, GoW did not expect us to grab Smith's, was thinking about building it themselves, and are now unpleasantly surprised. MZ tried to turn it into a bargaining chip, which I plain refused (as there is absolutely no "legal" ground to object what we did). I'd consider MZ's slip-up (I do not think he really wanted me to know we pissed them off by finishing Smith's, he touched the topic only after learning the news from me) another sign of that GoW is drifting away from us. Or maybe not drifting from us, but establishing themselves as a fully independent nation with goals that contradict our own goals.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by vondrack
Summary: for some reason, GoW did not expect us to grab Smith's, was thinking about building it themselves, and are now unpleasantly surprised. MZ tried to turn it into a bargaining chip, which I plain refused (as there is absolutely no "legal" ground to object what we did).

I don't recall such being "pissed off" on GoW's part when our Sistine project turned in to Bach's. Interesting they are now.

Originally posted by vondrack
I'd consider MZ's slip-up (I do not think he really wanted me to know we pissed them off by finishing Smith's, he touched the topic only after learning the news from me) another sign of that GoW is drifting away from us. Or maybe not drifting from us, but establishing themselves as a fully independent nation with goals that contradict our own goals.

Hard to say whether it was a slip-up; I doubt he would make a claim that a fair amount of GoW is pissed off unless a) it were true (meaning it had been discussed for a little while beforehand, doubtless including what should be said to Lego) or b) it was not true but it had been agreed he should say it.

As for drifting: Of course. They're a real power now thanks to their military, and will become a more balanced one once they get some building under way. I imagine ND will split from us somewhat too once they both get their own building well on the road and feel militarily secure. (Though the latter may not be for a while since they're sharing a continent.)

[vondrack]

Thursday chat with Master Zen:

Session Start: Thu Mar 11 23:01:20 2004
Session Ident: MasterZen
vondrack: hi, MZ!
MasterZen: heya
vondrack: would you have a minute or two?
vondrack: would like to talk about PtWDG a bit
MasterZen: sure
vondrack: last time we talked
vondrack: you sounded a bit, uhm, disappointed about us finishing Smith's
vondrack: even talked about Sistine again and such
vondrack: could we discuss wonder builds perhaps?
MasterZen: sure
vondrack: based upon your reaction back then, I assume you are building a wonder in Imperial City, right?
MasterZen: building, pre-building... it's all the same...
vondrack: sure
vondrack: may I try guessing about what the true goal is?
vondrack: something that makes warmongering a wee bit easier?
MasterZen: go, you get three chances
vondrack:
vondrack: yeah, that's right... three chances
vondrack: well, we discussed that a bit in our forum
vondrack: straight question: are you interested in building Universal Suffrage in Imperial City?
MasterZen: perhaps
MasterZen: though by definition a warmonger never suffers war weariness
vondrack:
vondrack: of course
MasterZen: we suffer peace-weariness which is why MY DAMN TEAM IS INACTIVE!!! (bastards)
vondrack: well, we would be happy to make an arrangement for you building US
vondrack: it would, however, need a little bit of cooperation
MasterZen: ok, in exchange for?
vondrack: well, in exchange for good relations, I guess
vondrack: I do not have anything particular in mind
vondrack: basically, it's about this
vondrack: US is 800S and needs Ind
vondrack: for a prebuild in your capital
vondrack: you need a 600S wonder - there is only one ATM
vondrack: Sistine
vondrack: we are perfectly fine with you using it as a prebuild
vondrack: but there is a problem
vondrack: if we, all of a sudden, finish Sistine somewhere
vondrack: you lose your prebuild
vondrack: and likely waste shields
vondrack: maybe lots of
vondrack: despite it would be "not a problem of ours"
vondrack: we would rather avoid such a situation
vondrack: do you have an idea how fast you can get to Industrialization?
MasterZen: no clue honestly
MasterZen: Aggie is our tech forecaster
vondrack: any deals with GS prearranged?
vondrack: not sure if you can answer, of course
MasterZen: Ind we will likely research ourselves
vondrack: can you get to it faster than in 10 turns?
vondrack: Steam Power included
vondrack: 'cause that's how long it would take us
vondrack: IIRC
MasterZen: I am not sure
MasterZen: Interested in Medicine for Industrialization?
MasterZen: us = Medicine that is
vondrack: that would sound viable, I believe
vondrack: unless Vox get Medicine, of course
vondrack: but it should be Nationalism for them, I think
vondrack: we are on PtW 1.29f
vondrack: little randomness, AFAIK
vondrack: ok, basically, here is the idea:
vondrack: if you can get to Ind in 10t or faster
vondrack: we would be interested in arranging a deal (you=Ind, we=something else)
vondrack: if not, we could do it the other way round
MasterZen: I don't think we can get to Ind faster
vondrack: either way - we would guarantee we would not try to build US
vondrack: so that we both feel safe about Ind
vondrack: how's your situation with Steam Power?
MasterZen: we are getting it
vondrack: from GS, right?
MasterZen: yes
vondrack: right... perhaps then it could be doable
vondrack: we'd agree to deliver Ind to you within a set timeframe
vondrack: I would have to pinpoint the date
vondrack: since I know how long it would take for us
MasterZen: 10 turns?
vondrack: but it's always a bit complicated to find what date it would be for you
vondrack: yes
vondrack: last turn
MasterZen: 10 turns sounds nice
vondrack: we were Mag in 1t
vondrack: then Steam Power in 4t
vondrack: and then Ind in 4t
vondrack: the GA help
MasterZen: obviously
vondrack: if you do Medicine in the meantime, we would be happy to trade
vondrack: that could work
vondrack: and we would also ensure that no "accidents" happen with regard to the prebuild
MasterZen: well, I'll bring this back to my inactive team...
vondrack:
MasterZen: (which mysteriously goes active once they smell a deal)
vondrack: we have already prediscussed this in Lego
vondrack: it's not a solid offer yet
vondrack: but a rather well thought out idea
vondrack: and one that seemed to have quite some support
vondrack: if you think it's worth a shot, I can try to draft an agreement
vondrack: precise dates, precise clauses
vondrack: so that you can check with your build schedules and such
MasterZen: but it would only be a "draft"
vondrack: well, yes - something you can evaluate
vondrack: and say "yes, we'd take it" or "no, to hell with it"
vondrack: or perhaps change this and amend that
MasterZen: ok
MasterZen: sounds good
vondrack: frankly, if you believe that the whole thing is "basically ok"
vondrack: I do not see what kind of a problem we could encounter
MasterZen: leave it up to Ghengis to find a problem...
vondrack:
vondrack: ok
vondrack: I mentioned the whole "idea, not a solid offer" thing because we haven't precised the offer yet in Lego
vondrack: we know we would like to arrange something like this
MasterZen: ok
MasterZen: we shall discuss it
vondrack: the techs are not the exact same price... but the good will is what counts
vondrack: ok, great
vondrack: I will PM you tomorrow
MasterZen: ok
vondrack: but you can post this chat in your forum, if you like
vondrack: as usually
vondrack: btw... are you already researching anything?
vondrack: not waiting for the Voxian free tech?
vondrack: hm... I guess not
vondrack: if I only thought about it a bit before asking
MasterZen: when will Vox get its free tech?
vondrack: we will send them Magnetism & ToG as soon as we discover Magnetism
vondrack: last turn, we were 2t from Magnetism
vondrack: so... 700AD: 1t, 710AD: discovered & sent, 720AD: Vox get their free tech
vondrack: 700AD is this (or coming) turn
MasterZen: interesting
vondrack: ?
MasterZen: but we'll still be doing medicine
MasterZen: anyway, send me a PM and we'll contine discussing this, I have dinner to eat
vondrack: cool
vondrack: bon apetit!
MasterZen: thanks
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Thu Mar 11 23:48:39 2004

[vondrack]

Few comments:

I was not particularly fast in realizing how the board was set up. But MZ's line at the end of the chat ("but we'll still be doing medicine") made me see through it eventually (at least I believe so).

GS have a deal with GoW. GoW are to deliver Medicine, getting Steam Power from GS in return. GS gets one ToE prerequisite, having it much easier to get to SciMeth in time for their Arashi prebuild.

This also explains why GoW would not be able to get to Industrialization faster than in 10 turns, even if getting Steam Power from GS (10 turns would be a lot of time... unless, of course, they'd need to squeeze Medicine in first).

So, now... it seems that GoW would be happy to trade for Ind. They would like to trade it for Medicine, which I'd consider a pretty good idea... perhaps asking for ~100g as a symbolic balance (after all it would be us helping them avoid troubles with their US build, even agreeing to a no-US clause - or so we would pretend).

There is one problem though - Voxes may get Medicine for free, which would turn the whole deal into "ok, we let you do US and even give you free Ind to get there faster" thing. I am generous by nature, but not THAT generous.

Any ideas? It's quite late in here... and staring into the tech chart, I do not "see" a trouble-free replacement for Medicine... Actually - does anyone know for sure what the "free sci tech" rules are for PtW 1.29f?

[redstar1]

I am led to believe it is the most expensive current tech....

[ZargonX]

I believe it is just random...

[Kloreep]

IIRC they fixed the bug in PTW 1.29f, making it truly random. 33/33/33 chance.

I would say just include a clause in the deal that makes it all void if Vox gets Medicine as their free tech. We're being a little generous on the details of this one, so I'm sure they'll understand and be okay with it.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
IIRC they fixed the bug in PTW 1.29f, making it truly random. 33/33/33 chance.

Now that Kloreep mentions it, I believe he is right. That also explains why I distinctly recall we almost "knew" Voxes would have gotten Monotheism back then... the game started under 1.27f and patched to 1.29f only after going medieval.

I searched Poly for relevant info and indeed found a thread about changes between versions - Aeson posted about the probability being now not weighed in favour of Nationalism.

I would say just include a clause in the deal that makes it all void if Vox gets Medicine as their free tech. We're being a little generous on the details of this one, so I'm sure they'll understand and be okay with it.

Hm, that's perhaps a good idea... the fact is that all we get from this deal (more or less) is that we do not piss GoW off, re-securing Sistine - which, considering we have little to fear from them military-wise, is not all that much.

I guess we should send them a draft with a clause voiding the whole deal in case Vox get Medicine, note that we would prefer finding out a suitable replacement clause - and ask GoW to come with one up.

I will put the draft together today. I do not think we need to be hasty on this one - GoW is doing Medicine and cannot get to Industrialization faster than us (which MZ admitted). Now they know what we plan to do... so it would be in their interest to work the deal out. I promised MZ I would send a draft today, so I guess I should, but will do so only much later today.

Also - now that we know... what about approaching GS and offering them a fine deal on Industrialization, too? Asking, say, Electricity in return, including some gold as a balance? Either at a date they would consider ok (to make them feel safe about their ToE beeline) or as soon as both techs are discovered, including a no-ToE clause?

[ZargonX]

It might be worth it to approach GS about a deal. They probably know we can't beat them to ToE, so a no-build deal might not work, but a tech deal could be beneficial.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
It might be worth it to approach GS about a deal. They probably know we can't beat them to ToE, so a no-build deal might not work, but a tech deal could be beneficial.

Actually, I mentioned the no-build clause only to make it possible to arrange the tech deal with GS, not to get something in exchange for it. Nobody in his right mind would trade a wonder-tech to his competitor, unless assured it would not be used to build the wonder in question.

GS cannot be sure about us having no prebuild - some of our interior cities, incl. Karina & Red Bricks (they do not know how many they are and how good they are) cannot be investigated by them (you can only investigate cities you can see on your world map - and you cannot steal your opponent's world map w/o having a spy with him).

[vondrack]

I am going to PM Master Zen with the following message later today:

Hello, MZ!

Here comes the draft I promised on Thursday (sorry, did not get to it on Friday as planned):

Legoland-GoW Industrialization/US trade agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Industrialization no later than in 800AD (Turn 196). GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift Industrialization to any other party.

2) Legoland agrees to not build Universal Suffrage as long as GoW remains in the game (though using Universal Suffrage as a prebuild for a different construction project is allowed).

3) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Medicine no later than in 800AD. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Medicine to any other party.

4) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with a sum of 100g to balance the beaker cost difference between Industrialization and Medicine.

5) The trade shall happen as follows: in 790AD (Turn 195), Legoland shall send Industrialization to GoW as 'accepted'. GoW shall receive it in 800AD (Turn 196) and immediately send Medicine and 100g back to Legoland as 'accepted'.

6) This trade agreement is null and void if Vox Controli receive Medicine as their free scientific tech in 720AD.

No NDA periods specified, though we wouldn't object the usual 20-turn NDAs. It's effectively the same, as with the quick tech progress now, 20-turns is pretty much like forever...

The final voiding clause sounds harsher than we would like it to sound; the thing is that if Vox get Medicine as their free scientific tech, we shall get it as a payment for Magnetism and Theory of Gravity. Obviously, we would be getting no value out of the trade with you then, so we'd want to renegotiate it.

We tried to think of an alternative solution, but knowing little about your economy and plans, we came to the conclusion we would leave that up to you. So, feel free to replace the voiding clause with a clause specifying an alternative deal...

Also... you can consider this draft sort of a "letter of intent". We do not mind waiting for the Voxian free tech to be known, signing the trade agreement only then. If they do get Medicine, we rework the deal to account for that, if they don't, we simply sign the pre-negotiated stuff.

Best regards,
vondrack, on behalf of Legoland

[ZargonX]

[vondrack]

Message eventually PMed to Hot_Enamel, as MZ's PMbox was full.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
It might be worth it to approach GS about a deal.

I am still hesistating about how to handle this... an obvious deal would be trading Industrialization + gold for Electricity. However, the "immediate benefits" of Ind (factories) are, IMHO, way better than those of Electricity (irrigating w/o fresh water).

I'm coming around to thinking of letting GS come to us, rather than the other way round - hopefully improving our bargaining position. Let's see: we do Steam Power in 4t, then Ind in 4t again, trading it to GoW, securing it thus to ourselves. We get occupied with laying our RRBB (railroad backbone) - which means a different focus from setting up our Southern cities to grow fast. Besides, we do not have aqueducts there anyway... so pop 6 max it is (which we already are at almost everywhere).

Vox would be a different story, but they will have to arrange their own Electricity deal with GS anyway...

So, I'm open to ideas and suggestions... would actually love to hear some. But for the moment, I personally believe we might be better off waiting silently.