Glory of War - correspondence & foreign affairs

[ZargonX]

Ok, with things rolling again, I had a chat with MZ about the tech deal. He said it looked good, and he would take it to the team for approval. I'm PMing him the full text of the deal shortly.

[ZargonX]

The chat...

ZargonX> Hey MZ, have a moment for some PTWDG business?
MasterZen> sure go ahead
ZargonX> Long ago, before the world crashed, Vondrack and I had worked up a deal with Panzer and GF for a tech swap
ZargonX> since all this time has gone by, we never really confirmed it
ZargonX> wanted to re-raise the issue and see if we could firm things up
MasterZen> go ahead
ZargonX> ok, the deal we had worked out was...
ZargonX> Theology for Feudalism and Education for Chivarly...
ZargonX> with the timing being..
ZargonX> Theo for Feu one turn before Edu for Chiv
ZargonX> (due to the prerequsites)
ZargonX> Panzer had told us it was "unofficially" accepted
ZargonX> but I figured we should probably confirm things with the new FAM
MasterZen> ok
ZargonX> excellent!
MasterZen> sounds allright
MasterZen> sounds allright
MasterZen> I should discuss it though with them a bit
ZargonX> of course
MasterZen> I see no problems though, sounds like a good deal
ZargonX> yes, I think it would be of benefit to all involved
MasterZen> btw, why Edu and not engineering?
ZargonX> I'm not sure, but I vaguely remember Panzer telling us you were getting Eng from a different source
MasterZen> ok, I don't know all the deals they made before I was FAM
ZargonX> but of course. That chat was so long ago I barely remember the details...
ZargonX> But, I'll PM you the official text of the deal for approval
MasterZen> yes, that would be best
ZargonX> will do!

[Tiberius]

Didn't you forget about the no-Sistine clause, Zargon? It was accepted by GF, IIRC.

[Nimitz]

Has any thing else happenned on this front, GoW PM you?

[vondrack]

Darn... it seems it's us delaying the deal. Master Zen has never received any formal draft from us...

Here is a draft I sent him about an hour ago:

Sorry for the mixup on our side. Here is a draft of the trade agreement informally agreed upon with GF and Panzer32:

Legoland-GoW Theo+Edu/Feu+Chiv trade agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Theology and Education. GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving Education.

2) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Feudalism and Chivalry. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving Chivalry.

3) Legoland agrees to not attempt to build Leonardo's Workshop as long as GoW remains in the game.

4) GoW agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel and Bach's Cathedral as long as Legoland remains in the game.

5) The trade shall happen right after the last of the four techs is discovered. First, Theology shall be traded for Feudalism, and one turn later, Chivalry shall be traded for Education.

On behalf of Legoland: vondrack, The President

As there is another team offering us Feudalism at a reasonable price, we would appreciate hearing from you back soon.

Best regards,
vondrack

I doubled the NDA lengths, since our techs will be much more valuable then theirs... Master Zen said, commenting on the draft, "... just one last thing, we sent you Feudalism (not accepted) this turn as we did not have the deal in our hands, we had been planning to sell the tech this turn to all teams for a "reasonable price" too; just disregard it, as it is most likely we will agree to the deal you just sent "

[vondrack]

Right, MasterZen just informed me (in a chat) that the deal was accepted. Written trade agreement should be with us shortly.

[vondrack]

Guys, I have had two long chats with Panzer32 and Master Zen. Do not do anything regarding GoW until I post them, please. Will do so after I wake up (4:25am here).

[vondrack]

OK, first the chatlogs:

Session Start: Fri May 30 03:11:11 2003
Session Ident: Panzer_32
Session Ident: Panzer_32 (~Panzer32@d235-144-4.home1.cgocable.net)
Panzer_32: hello Vondrack
vondrack: hello
Panzer_32: how did you get feudalism?
vondrack: well, you know, things got a bit complicated... let me explain
Panzer_32: go ahead
vondrack: first: Master Zen told me that our deal was "accepted"
vondrack: no "but's"
vondrack: second: later on, Master Zen told ZargonX (our current Prez) that the deal was "accepted with one modification"
vondrack: and that modification was supposed to be another no-wonder clause on our side
vondrack: though it was just in a chat, not even the wonder was named
vondrack: this was, I admit, rather... uh... "surprising", to be diplomatic
Panzer_32: just a minute... let me find the thread it was brought up in...
vondrack: the deal was heavily lopsided in your favour beaker-wise, so that one extra no-wonder on your side was meant as a balance
vondrack: nevermind... we were waiting for a written agreement from your side
vondrack: at least with a counterproposal or something
vondrack: but we received nothing even though we sat on the save for 12+ hours
Panzer_32: I was under the impression that you had agreed to it... I guess MZ wasn't entirely clear.
vondrack: agreed to what?
Panzer_32: the extra clause.
vondrack: another no-wonder one?
vondrack: it would have been difficult, since that wonder was not even named!?
vondrack: Zargon expressed some understanding (and he got some heat in our forum even for that)
Panzer_32: so you got Feudalism from GS?
vondrack: but we have never been even informed about what kind of a wonder it should have been
vondrack: well, yes, now for the Feu part
vondrack: this is where things get really complicated
vondrack: on the very turn all this was happening
vondrack: we received Feudalism basically for free
vondrack: not from GS
vondrack: I am not sure if I can say from which team it was
vondrack: we were waiting 12+ hours to hear back from you
vondrack: but since we haven't heard back from you (nothing written)
Panzer_32: sorry, we didn't know you were holding on to the save
vondrack: we went ahead and accepted that Feudalism
vondrack: yes
vondrack: well, you know
vondrack: Master Zen said (twice)
vondrack: that he would send a written confirmation
vondrack: never did so
vondrack: plus this extra new clause we were not very excited about...
vondrack: now, we still want to make a good deal with you
Panzer_32: I don't know why he wouldn't have sent it... discussion in the thread stopped yesterday...
vondrack: no idea - you will probably have to ask him
Panzer_32: maybe he forgot
vondrack: perhaps... but was reminded twice (by me, then by Zargon)
Panzer_32: Well, I guess I'll report this back to the team
vondrack: ok, now... can we try informally discuss whatever we can do now?
vondrack: we are still interested in Chivalry
vondrack: we still want to deliver at least Theology
vondrack: and we are still interested in no-wonder clauses
vondrack: can we work something out?
vondrack: what about this:
vondrack: Theology + no-Leo's for Chivalry + no-Sistine's?
Panzer_32: ok. That sounds ok to me, I'll post it and see what others think
vondrack: yeah - please, consider it just something to start from
vondrack: I have no authorization from the team
Panzer_32: right
vondrack: but I believe that Legos will consider it a fair one
vondrack: I know I would
Panzer_32: ok, thats all for now?
vondrack: do you have any other idea?
Panzer_32: nope
vondrack: this one was the first thing that occured to me...
vondrack: well, then... I am quite sorry that the deal went wrong way
Panzer_32: ok, bye for now
vondrack: but we felt that rejecting the Feudalism offer we were made would not be the brightest thing to do, you know
vondrack: though we would still do it
vondrack: if we heard back from you
vondrack: not sure if Master Zen is not used to sending things written
vondrack: but things just discussed in chat are rather unreliable
vondrack: we have two chatlogs with him
vondrack: in the one with me
vondrack: he said "accepted"
vondrack: few hours later, with ZargonX
vondrack: he said "modification needed"
Panzer_32: I see your point
vondrack: may I post this conversation in our forum?
Panzer_32: sure
vondrack: thanks
Panzer_32: and may I do likewise?
vondrack:
vondrack: of course
vondrack: ok, 3:30am here
vondrack: bedtime
vondrack: good night!
Panzer_32: good night
Session Close: Fri May 30 04:22:16 2003

[vondrack]

...and shortly afterwards, Master Zen:

Session Start: Fri May 30 03:47:37 2003
Session Ident: MasterZen
Session Ident: MasterZen (Master@dup-200-66-232-15.prodigy.net.mx)
MasterZen: are you there?
vondrack: yep
vondrack: hello
MasterZen: just read the chat you had with Panzer
MasterZen: and I'm rather surprised
vondrack: hmmm... this deal was full of surprises, I think
vondrack: first: can you explain this thing with me and ZargonX getting different info?
vondrack: please
MasterZen: first of all, I was told ZargonX would be Lego's leader, am I right?
vondrack: yes
MasterZen: when I posted the deal you sent me on our forum, some of our members expressed concern that we were agreeing to a 2-wonder no-build for a 1-wonder no-build
MasterZen: so me and Zargon had another chat
vondrack: well, yes - that was a balance for the beaker difference
vondrack: ah, sorry - go on
MasterZen: I suggested we go 2 for 2
MasterZen: he said, and I quote "but of course "
vondrack: I read that chatlog, I know
MasterZen: that I take as an informal agreement to be discussed internally between you
MasterZen: various lines after, I said: MasterZen: consider the tech deal officially approved by us as of this moment
MasterZen: MasterZen: it's just that little clause we have to change
vondrack: no need to quote, MZ, I did read that log
vondrack: Zargon got some heat for it
vondrack: because even as a President, he is not authorized to "make" deals like this on his own
MasterZen: I know the chats are logged vondrack, and since I have the last word on foreign affairs of our team, when I say "officially approved" that means it is
MasterZen: now, Zargon never said anything of the sort and I never expected it
vondrack: though it seems that it was, at least partially, a misunderstanding
vondrack: he expected you to send a written proposal
MasterZen: I honestly thought he would bring up the issue with your team
vondrack: with the wonder named
vondrack: he did
vondrack: and we told him (almost unanimously, IIRC) that we did not feel it was something we should go for
MasterZen: now, if your team did not like that modification for the reasons you just said, you or him could have just told me in the chat at any time and we could have still discussed it
vondrack: the beaker cost of the two techs was like 2000:1500
MasterZen: he never brought that up
vondrack: that one extra wonder was there to balance it in a way
MasterZen: neither did you
MasterZen: if you had said so, we would have probably understood
vondrack: but it was dicussed a long time ago in the first chat with GF and Panzer32
MasterZen: and would have most likely approved the original deal as it is
MasterZen: I wasn't there
MasterZen: brb
vondrack: well... ahem... the chats are logged
vondrack: and I know GF posted that chatlog
MasterZen: back
vondrack: k
vondrack: one note (just to avoid misunderstandings in the future): nothing is ever considered "in stone" until it is approved via a PM
vondrack: at least in Lego - sorry, if it is different in GoW
vondrack: now, whatever happened, happened
MasterZen: still, I find it surprising that you still got Feud very very quickly
MasterZen: seems like it was more of a priority than securing this deal
vondrack: I do not think you are as surprised as we were
vondrack: honestly
MasterZen: our deal was still to be in place over 10 turns from now
vondrack: it was nothing we would EVER talk about before
MasterZen: 1 day of no response can hardly be considered surprising
MasterZen: would you like to continue this in the GoW room? Panzer is there
vondrack: no - I mean, the offer we got was surprising
vondrack: it's getting late on my side (4am)
MasterZen: surprising yet still negotiable, it was an idea
MasterZen: an idea which could have still been discussed
vondrack: I am still not making myself clear
vondrack: the offer for Feudalism we got was surprising
MasterZen: oh
vondrack: not the extra-wonder clause from you
MasterZen: may I inquire as to from who?
vondrack: I am not sure I am authorized to tell
vondrack: sorry
MasterZen: why so secret?
vondrack: well, see, this is a rather informal chat - I am no longer in a position to tell such things on my own
vondrack: that all
vondrack: I may be able to tell you
vondrack: tomorrow
MasterZen: ok
MasterZen: see the things with chats is:
MasterZen: you only make it as formal as you want it to
MasterZen: If I chat with any team member then it is most likely informal
MasterZen: but if I am chatting with the leader or the foreign affeirs minister then I would expect things to be a bit more solid
vondrack: correct - but I am neither
MasterZen: especially if he says the word "official"
MasterZen: but Zargon was
vondrack: I am now MoW, I think
MasterZen: hehe
vondrack: ah, that chat... I believe it was one unlucky misunderstanding
vondrack: now, let's try to fix it
vondrack: what can we do now to get rid of this unlucky situation?
vondrack: mind you - this is informal
vondrack: I will have to go through the team with whatever we can think up
MasterZen: well, we really wanted that deal
vondrack:
MasterZen: as I said, we would have most likely agreed DESPITE you not accepting the 2 x 2
vondrack: right... perhaps it would have been better to accept it right away
MasterZen: so we do feel kinda disappointed, especially since we had still quite some time to discuss that aspect of it, and you guys suddenly inform us of this
vondrack: j/k
vondrack: well - now, say what you would like to dnow
MasterZen: no good negotiatior ever accepts the first deal
vondrack: to do now
MasterZen: as an ISDGer you should know
vondrack: ah - that's not 100% when dealing with Lego
vondrack: you may find out we are doing things a bit differently
vondrack: our first offer is usually the best one
MasterZen: btw, I'm ommitting this part if it ever gets logged, you know who is in our teamm... :P
vondrack: yes
vondrack: nevermind - try coming up with some idea now
vondrack: say what you would like to do now
MasterZen: perhaps we can add Engineering
MasterZen: Eng-Chiv for Theo-Edu
vondrack: we already have Eng prearranged
vondrack: with Voxes
MasterZen: see? and you had Feud prearranged with us and you dropped the deal
vondrack: ah, not quite the same
vondrack: sorry if I sound difficult
vondrack: but we have a signed deal on the Engineering
vondrack: we had nothing signed with you
vondrack: let's get over it, please
vondrack: we are not going to fix that misunderstanding ex post
vondrack: I gave one idea to Panzer - Theo+noLeo for Chiv+noSistine
vondrack: we may even honor our initial deal, to show good will
vondrack: though we would appreciate some token of good will from your side, too
MasterZen: that sounds good
vondrack: like your world map? IIRC, it was suggested in the initial chat with GF+Panzer32
MasterZen: as I told Zargon, I feel Lego-GoW relations should be solid rock
vondrack: yep, our desire, too
MasterZen: or "solid block" ?
MasterZen: haha
vondrack: LoL
MasterZen: yes, that sounds interesting
vondrack: I will post that in our forum after I wake up
MasterZen: ok, let's get things straight then,
vondrack: ok
MasterZen: I'll discuss this with our team and get back to you with a written PM
MasterZen: in the meanwhile I am free to further discuss this with Zargon or you
vondrack: maybe - I shall discuss first with my team, since this is really just my idea, not an official proposal from Lego - will you not mind?
MasterZen: no problem
vondrack: I sometimes find myself trying to do things differently from the rest of my team
MasterZen: I will discuss it too
MasterZen: I feel your pain, sometimes I feel the same
vondrack: ok - ask about that world map part, please
MasterZen: as we say in spanish, that will be the "meollo" of the business
vondrack: I will ask about both ideas I had (smaller deal / initial deal + WM)
MasterZen: ok
vondrack: sorry - I know not a single word in Spanish
MasterZen: haha
MasterZen: $30 an hour the lesson
vondrack: and will try to get back to you within two days, ok?
MasterZen: ok
vondrack: good
vondrack: I have to go to bed
vondrack: 4:20am here
MasterZen: I'm glad things have been straightened out
vondrack: tired as hell
MasterZen: I don't want our relationship to be dented at all
vondrack: us neither
MasterZen: because dented Lego Blocks don't join very well :P
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: right
MasterZen: ok, I won't keep you up
MasterZen: good night
vondrack: ok, good night!
Session Close: Fri May 30 04:22:13 2003

[vondrack]

Now...

First: Tiberius was right - it was rather unfortunate of ZargonX to show no disagreement immediately in that chat with Master Zen. He/GoW is now feeling as if we were too quick to trash our deal. It really made things unnecessarily complicated for both sides. Lesson learned: demands unlikely to be accepted shall be at least doubted and "needed to be discussed with the team". Whatever - let's just never pose as it's ok...

Second: GoW, despite our going ahead and acquiring Feudalism elsewhere, did not use this opportunity to go hostile towards us. Instead, they make pretty serious diplomatic efforts to fix the situation. This is actually very encouraging, as it shows we do not have to fear anything from them in the foreseeable future (as this would be a perfect opportunity to make our relation sour in a "controlled" way).

Third: we taught them the lesson we taught GS in the past. I made sure Master Zen got the message - if Lego offers you a deal, you better take it if you like it, and you better take it quick. Bargaining shall hardly give you a better one.

Fourth: we now have a fine chance to show a ton of good will by still honouring our original trade proposal. It's true that we effectively lose 150g "paid" to Vox, but we would make GoW owe us. Just as trashing the deal altogether would make our relations probably sour, still honouring it (despite not having to) shall achieve the exact opposite - improve them and make us look very good and extremely trustworthy (and strengthening our ties with them was the primary reason of this deal, IIRC). As a balance, we would probably get GoW's world map, which is not exactly a 150g value, but it still is slightly better than nothing...

I would like to hear everybody's comment on the idea of effectively trading Theo+Edu+noLeo for Chivalry+noSistine+noBach+WM now. In case you would not approve it - what kind of a balance we should ask to make the deal acceptable in your eyes?

If you are totally against it, what about Theo+noLeo for Chiv+noSistine?

My suggestion would be to honour our original deal, even if it means effectively waiving those 150 gold paid to Vox (or, rather... buying GoW's world map for 150 gold). Whatever helps make someone else GoW's next target is fine with me - as showed by Sharpe in his threat assessment thread, GoW is the only team capable of giving us headaches.

Oh, and I will tell ya... it was the right thing to step down from the Presidential post - I now have SO MUCH more time to sleep...

[Tiberius]

I agree with both proposals, although if I were to choose between them, I'd pick the original deal.

Obviously the second proposal would be a better one from a strictly business point of view, but we wanted to be the trustworthy trading partner for anyone from the beginning, so let act like one. Unfortunately we have our part of fault (that "but of course" was a very bad move) so we have to "pay". Honoring our almost signed treaty is the best way to go. I hope they've learned their lesson, and will hurry to sign treaties with us, not delaying them endlessly.

vondrack: ah - that's not 100% when dealing with Lego
vondrack: you may find out we are doing things a bit differently
vondrack: our first offer is usually the best one

Ahh, I loved that

One more note: I wouldn't tell where we have Feud from. Our whole relationship with Vox is secretive so let put this Feud thing in the same basket.

[ZargonX]

Hmm... this is why I hate text chatting. I think this whole "but of course" thing is an excellent example of how things can be misinterpreted. Whether because of language or idiom, what I mean by "but of course" is clearly not the same to others. For the matter of discussion, I say it as a "I see, please go on" not an "I agree completely with you" statement. So, in the future, I will be more careful with my words, remembering that they don't mean the same thing to everyone, and I apologize for that.

With that said, I am glad to see that GoW is willing to move on from this issue. As I have said, I think they are trustworthy partners. Personally, I would go for the first deal (with the WM). 150 gold is a minor price to pay at this point for maintaining good relations.

And, finally, we still need a new ambassador to GoW. No one wants this job?

[Nimitz]

Ok, we can all learn from this the main thing is alway make sure they know the deal can't be accepted by just you, you have to bring it to the team. It also taught me some thing keep a better eye on chats not done by me. I'm to use to vondrack being able to do just as well as me.

[Nimitz]

Also make sure they PM us the deal.

[Kloreep]

I'd go with the slightly modified original deal: Theo+Edu+noLeo for Chivalry+noSistine+noBach+WM

I can't remember if the "No Sistine" clause includes getting a similiar clause from anyone they sell it to... if not, let's try to include that as well in the new deal.