Glory of War - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Tiberius]

Btw, the worker exchange idea is excellent (brilliant idea!) and once the rexing is over we should activate it.
However, I'm quite sure that one can't exchange workers with a civ that doesn't have at least one city on the same landmass.

[vondrack]

The first part of my chat with GF:

Session Start: Mon Mar 17 16:08:08 2003
Session Ident: GhengisFarb
vondrack: hello!
GhengisFarb: hello
vondrack: glad to meet you again
vondrack: hope we will make another good deal today
GhengisFarb: I would have thought you would have discovered all of your goody huts
vondrack:
vondrack: saved for "bad times"
vondrack: we anticipated this possibility and gambled a bit
vondrack: we are unfreakingbelievably lucky with huts this game
vondrack: 6 techs
GhengisFarb: legoland huts seem to generate lots of techs
vondrack: ok, do you have anything to say before I start talking about the deal?
GhengisFarb: no
vondrack: fine
vondrack: so let me start
vondrack: sorry, I will be a bit more detailed to make sure you get the whole picture, ok?
GhengisFarb: ok
vondrack: it is of course ok to post a log of this chat in your private forum
vondrack: so:
vondrack: first, our reasons:
vondrack: 1) you were fair to us, we want to be fair, too
vondrack: you gave us an excellent catch-up deal and a fair deal on Polytheism - we remember that
vondrack: 2) we want to help keep the balance of power of Bob
vondrack: currently, we believe the best way to achieve that is to support you
vondrack: 3) we want to work out a win-win deal including you, us, and GS (possible Voxes - not sure about them, though)
vondrack: second, our goals:
vondrack: 1) save gold/beakers wasted researching something we already have
vondrack: splitting the profit in a fair way between the two of us
vondrack: 2) properly time the transition to the medieval times
vondrack: 2a) we have a barb problem here, so we need to prepare for that
vondrack: 2b) to offer a fair deal to GS, too (on the Republic), we want them to go medieval at the same time
vondrack: this is for what leads us to offer the deal
vondrack: now the deal
vondrack: 1) we suggest that you shut down your research completely, stockpiling cash
vondrack: 2) as soon as we get Currency (9-10 turns), we will sell it to you for 60 gold - this part is optional
vondrack: 3) as soon as GS discovers the Republic, we trade Republic and Construction for gold to you
vondrack: the exact sum to be negotiaited
vondrack: the exact timeline would be like this:
vondrack: 1) 9-10 turns from now: you get Currency from us for 60 gold (no resale clause, please)
vondrack: ...though we may be fine with you reselling it to RPers later on, sharing some part of the profit
vondrack: 2) the turn before GS discovers Republic, we offer Construction and "accept"
vondrack: 3) you counter with the gold and "accept"
vondrack: 4) the turn after we gift you Republic
vondrack: well
vondrack: that's probably it
vondrack: hope I haven't forgotten about anything
GhengisFarb: How much gold are we looking at for Currency and Republic?
vondrack: we would be looking for an arrangement that leaves you with Curr+Constr+Rep plus some gold
vondrack: try coming up with a figure
vondrack: you know best how much you can save
vondrack: by shutting the research down
GhengisFarb: Are you giving Currency to GS?
vondrack: yes, that would be part of the deal
vondrack: but they would get Constr only afer trading the Rep to us
GhengisFarb: So Vox will already have it for free
vondrack: so you and them go medieval at the same moment
vondrack: nope
vondrack: GS would not be allowed to trade it Voxes
GhengisFarb: Vox and GS are the same team.
vondrack: GS would get Curr+Constr on condition they would not resell it
vondrack: I believe they would accept
GhengisFarb: They share everything. Vox will simply tell you they are already researching Construction and are only 1 turn from finishing it to cover the fact that GS will give it to them
vondrack: we would not accept such approach
GhengisFarb: What can you do? Once one of them gets it it is out of your hands
vondrack: this deal effectively helps GS keep pace with others as far as going medieval is concerned, so I believe they would accept it
vondrack: sure, that's a matter of trust
vondrack: it would be negotiated before
vondrack: in advance, I mean
GhengisFarb: They will but Vox will still get it from them. Vox generates a free tech when it advances to the next era and we were negotiating trading Construction for that tech.
vondrack: well, their free tech would also be part of that deal
vondrack: we suppose you would get it from them paying with the rest of the saved cash
vondrack: so you eventually end up with Curr+Constr+Rep+freetech+nogold
vondrack: we might make it part of the deal (that they will sell it to you)
GhengisFarb: We simply won't have that much gold. This would cost us over 650 gold and we simply don't have it.
vondrack: 650 gold? try giving me the formula, please
GhengisFarb: GS/Vox won't sell these techs for anything less than 150 gold each, probably more.
GhengisFarb: You want 60 gold for Currency and probably 250 are so for Construction/Republic.
vondrack: probably less
GhengisFarb: We can continue to research Construction and get it (4 turns after you would have given it to us) for far less than we can purchase it for.
vondrack: also, what techS?
vondrack: just Voxes' free tech, right?
GhengisFarb: Yes, assuming we buy Republic from you.
vondrack: we would be looking for something like 250 gold for all the techs we'd be supposed to deliver to you
vondrack: you use the rest to get Voxes' free tech
GhengisFarb: That's 310 gold and we are trying to save up to be able to upgrade when GS/Vox invade
vondrack: we would push a bit to make them accept whatever you would have remaining
vondrack: hmmm... how much would you be able to save?
vondrack: I do not expect GS to be done with Rep earlier than in 15 turns, probably few more
GhengisFarb: Then we have construction by then because we finish it in 15 or less turns.
vondrack: not if you shut your reserach down
vondrack: stockpiling cash
vondrack: nobody else would be able to get Constr earlier
vondrack: and if we make it 18 turns, you just get 3 more turns to save cash
GhengisFarb: Why can't we purchase Construction now?
vondrack: you'd go medieval long before GS would - that we do not want to happen (not a good deal for them)
vondrack: we are trying to arrange a deal where everybody gains something
GhengisFarb: We can't go medieval withou currency
vondrack: currency will be available no later than in 9-10 turns
vondrack: that is when we will have it (our own research)
vondrack: plus, as I said, we (Lego) need some time to prepare for the barb uprisings spawned once two teams go medieval
GhengisFarb: You've got 9 turns, we would be willing to send some Horsemen to help with barbarians. We are trying to get them promoted to elite status on barbs but their isn't any frre space for barbs over here anymore.
vondrack: I am sorry this is unfortunately not an option
vondrack: Lego is a bit secretive about its land
GhengisFarb: I will discuss this with my team, but am not sure they will accept it. Could you send me the complete offer in the form of a pm so that I can post in our forum for them to discuss.
vondrack: and keep in mind we want this trade to be fair to GS, too - if they are left stuck in ancient times, while we and you jump to mediaval, the price of Republic would go up
vondrack: well, I could... but would this chat not be enough?
vondrack: I mean
vondrack: it's not a problem, but I think I was pretty precise
vondrack: would save me some time
vondrack: nevermind, if you wish me to make it "official", I will
GhengisFarb: WIth the timetable and gold amounts included in the pm as we discussed different options, this helps to avoid misunderstandings later. As our teams would simply have one concise pm to go by and not an entire log to sift through.
vondrack: ok, will do that shortly
vondrack: anything else to include?
GhengisFarb: In a log some comments can be taken out of context.
vondrack: agreed, I will PM
vondrack: to make it clear - we do not have any response from GS yet (we PMed DeepO about 5 hours ago)
vondrack: but the deals with you and them and not 100% interdependent
vondrack: so I wanted to talk to you ASAP
GhengisFarb: No rush, I don't understand why GS would necessarily be left in the ancient age. You could trade them Construction early for a safety deposit of gold (they did that to us) and then they would go Medieveal with the rest of us and give you Republic when they finish it for the safety deposit back.
vondrack: the problem with this is
vondrack: that they do go medieval
vondrack: but can't start researching anything, since still doing Republic
vondrack: they would be unhappy about that, I think
GhengisFarb: There are only 3 tech that can be researched in the medieval age, and there are 6 civs.
vondrack: correct
vondrack: which will make them even more sensitive about the issue, I think
vondrack: do not get me wrong, please
vondrack: this in not an attempt to lick GS' feet
GhengisFarb: half the civs would have to research something else anyways, Monarchy and Republic are just as important as the first Medieval ones as they improve your science production.
vondrack: but we would like to form sort of a research coalition with you and GS
GhengisFarb: The problem is if all 6 civs are trying ot research teh three techs at the beginning of the medieval age they war is almost unavoidable as three civs are no longer needed to advance the tech tree.
vondrack: well, this problem would emerge anyways, right?
GhengisFarb: not if GS and Rp are researching the governents and three other civs are researching Medieval techs. That gives 5 civs something to research
vondrack: that would just delay the problem a bit, not solve it
GhengisFarb: So you want to rush war between the civs?
vondrack: nope, I believe there is still room enough to cooperate
vondrack: 3 vs 3
vondrack: 4 vs 2
vondrack: without a war
vondrack: I admit I know little about how tense relations are
vondrack: among Bobians
vondrack: between Bobians and Estonias
vondrack: so I may be talking crap
vondrack: you tell me
GhengisFarb: I think my team would be more interested in a deal for Construction and Currency and leave Republic out of it.
vondrack: well, we would still not sell Construction earlier
vondrack: and I want to avoid you researching it anyways
GhengisFarb: How much would you want to sell Constuction and Currency for in 15 turns.
vondrack: I would have to consult, but the idea was that the Republic was thrown in basically as a free extra to make you happy about the deal
vondrack: at least IIRC
GhengisFarb: So you would sell us Currency in 9 turns for 60 gold and Construction in 15 turns for 250 gold?
vondrack: nope 60+190
vondrack: 250 together
vondrack: Republic included
GhengisFarb: I am pretty sure my team would agree to buy Currency for 60 gold in 9 turns.
vondrack: Republic included on condition we wait for GS, of course
vondrack: well, yes, we can make the deal on Currency independent
vondrack: that is an option - but we would ask for a no-whore clause
GhengisFarb: That would assure you of some profit immediately for Currency.
vondrack: yes, that was our original intention
vondrack: since Currency will allow you to build mktplaces
GhengisFarb: We would agree not to sell or trade it for anything.
vondrack: Currency would be provided ASAP
vondrack: Constr once the Rep becomes available
GhengisFarb: I'm not sure how close ND is to finishing it though.
vondrack: me neither, but our intel indicated they would not get it earlier
vondrack: though the intel might have been wrong
vondrack: ND seem to be pretty weak research-wise
GhengisFarb: That may be true they may have their tech rate reduced
vondrack: that's what I believ, too
vondrack: we believe their max res output is about 20 bpt
vondrack: and we don‘t think they are researching at full speed
vondrack: either way, they would not be done earlier
vondrack: and if they were
vondrack: and offered a lower price
GhengisFarb: I don't know their capital is on a heavily rivered area with luxuries.
vondrack: we would be able to accomodate you on the price
GhengisFarb: Are you offering them Currency?
vondrack: not yet
vondrack: trying to find out how long it would take them to get it on their own
vondrack: as I said - we would not be able to guarantee we would have Currenecy before them, but we would be able to guarantee a fair deal on it
vondrack: 10 turns max is what I can guarantee
GhengisFarb: My team may be willing to pay the 190 for Construction and Republic. But I am not sure.
vondrack: sure, I am not pushing this
GhengisFarb: We have time to work out the deal for it.
vondrack: if I were you I would have to bring it to my teammates as well
vondrack: yep
vondrack: the crucial thing is
vondrack: for you
vondrack: to decide whether you shut your research down or not now
GhengisFarb: Yes
vondrack: every turn spent researching Const is basically more or less wasted
vondrack: that's why I wanted to talk to you ASAP
vondrack: our intentions are genuine
GhengisFarb: I will present this to my team.
vondrack: ok
vondrack: I will sum it up in a PM
vondrack: you should have it within 30 minutes
vondrack: also
vondrack: one more question...
vondrack: what are your plans regarding the galley that landed on the Mystery Island?
vondrack: we would appreciate if it does not press further westwards... not a request... just something we would appreciate
vondrack: just as we withdrew our galley from your coast
GhengisFarb: It is most likely going to explore your coast.
vondrack: hmmm
vondrack: as I said...
GhengisFarb: 1) GoW has no interests in attacking Legoland, we already are in the process of preparing to fight someone else
vondrack: we will consider it a gesture of good will, if it heads back home... but the decision is yours, I am in no way trying to request anything
vondrack: I am glad to hear you do not plan to go hostile towards us
vondrack: it should be mutually beneficial to cooperate
vondrack: errrr... what a crap )
GhengisFarb: We are also mapping out the Vox GS continent. We aren't landing anything just mapping out the coast.
vondrack: ok, unless you land a unit, there should be no problem
vondrack: even tough we would still... errrr... repeating myself
vondrack: not a big deal
GhengisFarb: There won't be any units on it, it will be an empty galley
vondrack: ok
GhengisFarb: Aro really wants to make a world map.
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: he really is into maps, isn't he?
GhengisFarb: Yes
GhengisFarb: I don't know how it will work since we are all different teams but I think he wants to make a world map for the main forum.

[vondrack]

The second part of my chat with GhengisFarb:

vondrack: btw
vondrack: just talking to my mate
vondrack: GS indicate they might have Rep on Turn 84
vondrack: that's the same time as we'd have Curr
vondrack: so the whole thing would be faster that I thought
vondrack: probably - need to verify that
GhengisFarb: But would you still give us Construction on Turn 84?
vondrack: yes, at the same time
GhengisFarb: ok
vondrack: our goal is to make everybody involved get Curr+Constr+Rep within a two turn period
vondrack: just depending on how things work out
vondrack: probably on the same turn
vondrack: we might ask GS to give you Rep on the turn they discover it... dunno if it's any better for you
GhengisFarb: When is Roleplay supposed to finish Monarchy, and have you made any offers to them about this deal? I assume I am not to mention this chat to anyone outside our team.
vondrack: no idea about when RPers finish Mon
vondrack: they were not made any offers
vondrack: and yes, keep this to your team only
vondrack: re: RPers
vondrack: we currently see limited opportunities to trade with them
vondrack: there is unfortunately kind of a shadow lying over our relations
vondrack: we DID make them an offer which seemed fair to us (not this deal, something different before we got Constr)
GhengisFarb: Did something happen?
vondrack: they said it WAS fair
vondrack: but rejected it
vondrack: I would better not comment
vondrack: the fact is
vondrack: that our relations with you and GS are much better than with RPers
vondrack: keep this to yourself, please
GhengisFarb: I told you early on they seem to be playing under the mind set that they are the human team and we are the AI teams. They don't quite seem to grasp that all of the teams are human.
vondrack: my personal impression is that they were expecting too much from a cooperation with Lego
GhengisFarb: Are relations with the RPer are much better than with GS/Vox
vondrack: yes, much like if we were an AI civ
vondrack: hmmm... so you do not get well along with GS/Voxes?
GhengisFarb: They are very antagonistic towards us. It is fairly obvious they are planning a joint invasion of GoW.
vondrack: hmmm... I can see why you do not like the idea of making the deal beneficial to them, too
vondrack: but keep in mind Lego is sort of "outside", so we do not really have any ties/problems with Estonians
GhengisFarb: Once we reach the Medieval Age they will attack and try to destroy us before we can research Chivalry.
vondrack: do you think thay have means to?
vondrack: I mean... navy and such?
GhengisFarb: They will probably shuttle forces across the strait.
vondrack: hmmm...
vondrack: I suppose Bobians would unite then?
vondrack: pushing them back to the sea
GhengisFarb: i don't know.
vondrack: ok, I am going to finally finish the PM (working on it in parallel)
vondrack: the next step will be yours
GhengisFarb: ok, it will probably be a day or two.
vondrack: it's up to you
GhengisFarb: Just letting you know it won't be fully discussed today.
vondrack: okay
vondrack: also
vondrack: considering how early Rep should be available
vondrack: we might want to base the gold sum paid upon the number of turns to the conclusion of the deal
vondrack: feel free to come up with a reasonable idea
vondrack: I will include my original proposal
vondrack: 60+190
GhengisFarb: I am not sure if you are aware of this so I am going to give you a heads up.
GhengisFarb: This puts Lego in a VERY strong position. Historically, when a team gains a strong position other teams start devising plans to weaken it. IE, when ND advanced faster in tech due to its Expansionistic trait the other three civs formed a tech limitation deal against them until the techs were equal again.
GhengisFarb: Lego is on an isolated continent, is in full control of Currency and Construction and stands to make lots of money. This is most likely going to set you up as a VERY BIG target.
vondrack: well, what we can do about that? return Construction to the hut?
vondrack: we plan to be reasonable about future tech deals as well
GhengisFarb: No, I'm simply letting you know so you are prepared for very unfair offers other civs may make in the future.
vondrack: I understand. Thanks.
vondrack: here is the text of my PM so far:
vondrack: it looks so brief I am hesitating if it is complete:
vondrack: Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal:
vondrack: 1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns.
vondrack: 2) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns.
vondrack: ---
vondrack: what is missing?
vondrack: btw, the only money we would get would be from yourself, I think
GhengisFarb: Like I said before GoW has no hostile plans towards Lego, it was our hope from the beginning that we could make some for of arrangement with Lego where we provided the Military and you provided the Science.
vondrack: yep, agreed
vondrack: would you have a look at the PM text, please?
vondrack: it looks so short...
GhengisFarb: That sounds fine. I will do everyghing possible to convince my team to agree to it. The short treaties are the easiest to stick to.
vondrack: ok, will send it in a couple of minutes
vondrack: sent - I added an alternative to "2)" (just a technical change)... whatever suits your needs better
vondrack: ttyl
GhengisFarb: Okay, something that may come up:
vondrack: more news
vondrack: just got a PM from ND
vondrack: they admit they will have Curr in like 20 turns
GhengisFarb: We will basically be paying the amount it would have cost us to research Construction for Construction. Only we won't be able to trade it where we would if we finished researching it. Is there some possibility of reducing the cost since we are agreeing to not trade these techs to anyone?
vondrack: hmmm... what about getting the possibility to trade it to ND?
vondrack: also, you would be paying much less Construction costs 20*24=480 beakers
vondrack: we ask for 250 for Curr+Constr+Rep
vondrack: that's fair even if we consider the tech cost discount
vondrack: based upon we get it already
GhengisFarb: That might work, we should coordinate our efforts to work together so that we get teh maximium bang for the buck. We need to aquire Monarch from Roleplay and Monotheism from Vox and it would help if we didn't compete on price
vondrack: as I said, we might consider leaving it up to you to sell Constr to ND... but that is only my PERSONAL idea, not yet consulted with my team - so keep this in mind, please
vondrack: though my teammates usually agree with me eventually
vondrack: good, we'd sell them (ND) Currency, you would sell them Construction - that might work
GhengisFarb: Since you get along with GS Lego could do all negotiations with them, and GoW could do all negotiations with RP. Basically we coudl play good tech trader/bad tech trader
vondrack: not sure about this
vondrack: RPers would probably feel offended if we were doing trade with them through GoW
vondrack: I know it makes little sense, considering what I said before
vondrack: but it is that way
GhengisFarb: No, you don't understand. You still attempt to trade with them, you just offer GS the better deal, and we offer Lego the better deal. They are none the wiser and accept the better deal because they think its a bargain compared to what the other team offered them.
GhengisFarb: Not Lego, RP
vondrack: I see
vondrack: that would still not work, I am afraid
vondrack: I am not at liberty to tell why
vondrack: but we might try it the other way round
vondrack: THAT would work perfectly, I think
vondrack: sorry for sounding so secretive - obligations to honor

And the PM I sent him after the chat ended:

Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal:

1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns.

2a) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns.

2b) Legoland will sell Construction to GoW for 190 gold one turn before Republic becomes available for trading. Legoland will gift Republic to GoW on the next turn for free. GoW will agree to not resell these two techs to anybody else for 20 turns.

Choose whichever of 2a/2b suits you better.

Respectfully,
Radek aka vondrack
President of Legoland

Everybody, comment NOW!

[ZargonX]

Phew... if there's one thing this game breeds, it's distrust. What we can garner from this message is that GoW is clearly afraid of the Estonians, though I think that may be overblown a bit. It would be quite a task for the Estonian civs to successfully launch an invasion of GoW at this point, just due to geography. I would think it likely that they may try to settle Eastern Bob, which could lead to a war, however.

I think something is going to break in the next 10 turns or so, either between Bobian civs, or between Estonia and Bob. That said, I still think we need to be ready for anything. As GF said, we do make a nice juicy target. I'm going to write up another defense analysis and come up with some plans for building up our forces to deal with any threats. Fortress Legos must be ready!

[Tiberius]

What invasion? The Estonians have week military, compared to Bob. This is a bluff, to make us suspicious about the Estonians and force us to choose GoW as our primary trading partner.

GF is a difficult trading partner. By difficult, I mean tough, clever, skilled in deception. I'd not take as granted everything he says. I was afraid that something like this could happen (tough negotiations, instead of smooth treaties). If our position wasn't so good, they might have tried to extort more from this treaty. Obviously they are not happy with GS+Vox gaining so much from this deal, but what can they do? With or without them, we are going to do the trades with GS, so they better accept for the sake of their own interest.

[Kloreep]

I have to say I'm not too happy with two things that slipped out: our cooling relations with the RPers (which even they may not be quite aware of yet), and ND's turns-to-currency. If either slips out, it could get the team involved mad at us - and very untrusting, in the case of ND; I don't think they told us not to pass on their research information, but it's good form to keep it to ourselves.

It may be time to express some of our dissatisfaction to the RPers. If GoW does leak what GF was told about them, we can hopefully beat them to RP; and I think we do need to hammer out something new in our "alliance" with RP. And who knows... perhaps they can actually meet us halfway. While I doubt they'll ever be the close allies we had hoped, we might actually set up a good trading relationship.

[Tiberius]

Reading the chat once again... Maybe the GoW doesn't want the Republic. They may aim for Monarchy, and this is why probably GF wasn't that happy for the Republic part.

So I was thinking that maybe we could propose them to leave the Republic out of this deal, and lower the price for the other two, especially that the deal is closer (in time) than we thought.

How about 200 for Currency and Construction, without Reprublic? Then either they trade them with the RPs for Monachy or we trade them with the RPS and sell Monarchy to the GoW as part of a future deal.

[Nimitz]

I'll get on RP maybe they'll change there minds.

[Jack_www]

well this is a good deal for us, but why are they giving us so many techs??? I mean we trade one tech for 4, am I missing something or does this sound just too good to be true?

[Tiberius]

Jack, this was a long time ago. Now we are giving them 3 techs for no tech, but money

[Tiberius]

double post

[vondrack]

I have just received a PM from GhengisFarb:

vondrack wrote on 17-03-2003 10:38:
Following our chat, here goes Legoland's trade proposal:

1) Legoland will sell Currency to GoW for 60 gold no later than on Turn 84. GoW will agree to not resell Currency to anybody else for 20 turns.

2a) Legoland will sell Construction and Republic to GoW for 190 gold on the turn Republic is available for trading. GoW will agree to not resell these techs to anybody else for 20 turns.

2b) Legoland will sell Construction to GoW for 190 gold one turn before Republic becomes available for trading. Legoland will gift Republic to GoW on the next turn for free. GoW will agree to not resell these two techs to anybody else for 20 turns.

Choose whichever of 2a/2b suits you better.

Respectfully,
Radek aka vondrack
President of Legoland

My team would be willing to accept this offer and agree to not discuss it or trade any of the techs if we are allowed to sell/trade them to ND.

We had previously agreed to trade them Construction for Currency and they seem to be bent on researching Currency theirselves and made it sound very ominous if we should try to edit the preagreed deal (the ND/GoW relationship is edgy at best as we are right up in each other's faces and a blink by either side could escalate into something not pleasant).

We need to come with a plan to get Monotheism from Vox. If they are evasive about making a deal with you (they may be wary of letting your team get too powerful) we would be willing to broker a deal to them and they immediately gift it to you.

And here is my response to him:

Hello, GhengisFarb!

I will post your message in our forum. Though we will need to discuss for a wee while, letting you trade Curr and Constr to ND sounds like an option, if you sweeten the deal just a little bit... What about throwing in the contact to Voxes for free? We still lack that one - it's actually the last one we lack... We were supposed to get it anyway according to the 1300BC treaty, but it hasn't been a big deal so far, so we haven't pushed it... If we can get rid of it in this way....

However, we will not be able to allow you to trade Republic to ND, that I am sure of - sorry for that. As that tech is not "ours" (in the sense that we will not have it researched it by ourselves), we can do very little about it. Hope it will not be a major problem.

I will get back to you ASAP.

Cheers,
Radek

Putting together this post, however, adding comments, I realized I was confused what exactly GoW needed and asked GF for a chat:

Session Start: Wed Mar 19 16:54:05 2003
Session Ident: GhengisFarb
vondrack: Hello!
GhengisFarb: Hello
vondrack: just a couple of questions regarding the proposed adjustment to the trade treaty...
vondrack: will you explain what ND's intentions are, please?
GhengisFarb: I don't know, we had agreed to trade them Construction for Currency (we were each researching one) they want us to fulfill our part of the deal by trading them Construction.
vondrack: I asked because
vondrack: it seems to me that what you need is the right to trade them Construction, right?
vondrack: 'cause they would be supposed to throw in the Currency
vondrack: is that correct?
GhengisFarb: Yes, we need to be able to honor our agreement. We plan on doing the entire deal with you , but need the ability to trade ND Construction so that we can fulfill our agreed to treaty.
vondrack: that would be ok, I believe - how would you handle the situation, if they need Constr from you, but have nothing to counter with (as you'd have Curr form us)
vondrack: gold?
GhengisFarb: No we would just give it to them. They are attempting to fulfill their side in the agreed to limits, the fact that we got it from someone else earlier does not void the deal
vondrack: I see, that's ok
vondrack: it is a "guaranteed deal", right?
GhengisFarb: We did the same with a deal with Lux, and one with RP
vondrack: I recall the idea
GhengisFarb: We feel ethically correct because we fulfilled our end even though we no longer needed their end
vondrack: now what about Republic? I indicated we would not be able to grant you rights to trade it to other teams
vondrack: would that be a problem?
GhengisFarb: We have never discussed any trade relating to Republic with anyone but Lego.
vondrack: ok
vondrack: I just got confused by the wording of your PM, it seems
vondrack: I felt like you needed to be able to trade all of the techs covered by the deal
GhengisFarb: What about Monotheism, and the techs to be researched in the new age?
vondrack: we are not completely done with the Monotheism deal yet
vondrack: but we seem to be on the right track
vondrack: however, if we get stuck
vondrack: I will gladly accept any help
GhengisFarb: It pointless for us to research Mono when Vox gets it for free.
vondrack: yes
vondrack: anyway
vondrack: I believe we will be able to get it
vondrack: so it's quite unlikely you would get involved
GhengisFarb: What does Lego plan to research?
vondrack: we are not yet decided, but we lean towards the "upper" part of the techtree
vondrack: towards Education
GhengisFarb: So Theology?
vondrack: as we have little need for Military techs...
vondrack: quite likely, yes
GhengisFarb: We plan to research Feudalism (Pikemen) and would be interested in potential trades for it.
vondrack: but mind you, we are consulting number of possible options - also depends on where we find our best partners
GhengisFarb: IT should be obvious we intend to work towards Chivalry and our UU
vondrack: yes, I understand
vondrack: but I would prefer leaving this be for a couple of turns... things can change a lot
GhengisFarb: True, as did Construction.
vondrack: yep
vondrack: so, to sum it up:
vondrack: what you need is the right to give/sell/whatever Construction to ND, correct?
vondrack: that would be the only change to the proposed deal
GhengisFarb: Yes
vondrack: that sounds doable... would you consider balancing this with a contact to Voxes?
GhengisFarb: Sure
vondrack: that I believe we will have a deal very soon
vondrack: I need to get the approval of my team
vondrack: but I do believe there will be no problem
GhengisFarb: Do we have any more clarification on the completiion time?
vondrack: sorry, not yet - 10 turns max still applies
vondrack: there was so much happening with ISDG
GhengisFarb: Ok
vondrack: that I had not time to work on my XLSs

Now, the change GoW ask for is very simple:

1. allow them to trade Construction to ND
2. get a free contact to Voxes in return

I suggest that we take the deal, since it will most likely help us strike the deal with... surprise!... ND.

It now makes sense - ND cannot accept the deal we offered them (included a no-whore clause), unless we let them trade Currency to GoW - because of their deal. So, if we let GoW trade Construction for Currency with ND, we can "generously allow" ND to trade Currency to GoW for Construction, asking few more gold. Lovely, is it not?

So, I say, let's go for it.

And I am going to PM [DG]helios, carefully touching the issue of easing the no-whore clause a little bit... Folks, I just love this game.

[Tiberius]

Sounds good, I agree with the modification in the GoW treaty.

Go ahead and try the new proposal with the ND, but if I was you I wouldn't askfor more money. There are only 9 turns left or so, and they can't make very much gold in such a short period.

[ZargonX]

Hmmm... as an interesting note, when playing the turn today, I noted that GoW and ND have an active trade marked off in the foreign advisor screen. Wonder what that's about...

[Tiberius]

If ND granted iron to GoW, then they must be out of their mind. More likely a luxury trade, IMHO.