Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Agreed... however, I would start with Currency alone. RPers do not know who popped Construction yet and you may have noticed that I lightly touched the idea of letting GoW sell Construction to RPers in my chat with GoW (that would be something we could easily explain and back up - saying it was part of our deal with GoW, who were already researching the tech).

Otherwise, I agree that their previous decline of our Rep for Curr+Constr trade fully justifies asking money only and not accepting Monarchy in return. That will teach 'em.

[Tiberius]

But if we start with Currecy alone, we have to ask a very low price. We sold it to the GoW for 60, so we should sell it to the RPs for 50. That's a bargain and I'm not happy about it, but what can we do? Under any circumstancies, we must respect our treaties.

May I suggest to rephrase the treaty with the GoW, so that the Currency would be 80 and the Construction 170, in case they accept the total of 250? This way we could ask 70 from the RPs.
In the same time, we could mention that we have a treaty with the GoW so they must buy Construction from them. This should make the GoW happy, too.

[vondrack]

Hmmm... that is not a bad idea. Even though I would be perfectly fine with selling Currency to RPers for more than 60 gold - we were paying back GoW their fair deal on Polytheism. As I understand the pre-game treaty with RPers, we shall sell them techs for less than to others assuming that other conditions are the same. Which is clearly not the case here. Otherwise, we would always have to prefer them, even if other teams are easier to cooperate with. That would make no sense.

But I agree that rephrasing the deal with GoW shall be a smart solution making us honor not only to the spirit, but also the wording of our pregame treaty with RPers.

[vondrack]

Well, discussing our latest research success with redstar1, we came to these conclusions:

1) Boasting about getting yet another tech from a goody hut would most probably lead do other teams feeling less friendly about us (those super-bloody-lucky bastards!).

2) Trading it around would piss RPers off mightily.

3) We still want to make something out of the luck we have (we will run out of it one day, so we better save something for worse times).

4) RPers started researching Monarchy on Turn 70 (+/- 1 turn). Their GNP is 41 maximum. Considering the total corruption level to be roughly the same as ours (about 25%-30%), they should be able to invest about 30 beakers per turn into their research. Monarchy is 24*24=576 beakers nominal research cost. Now, that we have it, it is less - my best estimate is about 519 beakers. Considering 30 bpt, they should be like 200+ beakers into the research, leaving about 10-11 turns to finish it (worth like ~300 gold).

Now, here is an idea:

Secretly provide RPers with Monarchy in exchange for 100 gold immediately and 150 gold payable on Turn 90. Grant them exclusive rights to trade Monarchy around for 20-25 turns.

The reason behind splitting the payment to two parts is that we want to be "safe" to at least some extent (thus the upfront 100g part), while making the deal acceptable for RPers (thus the postponed 150g payment). They should still save like ~50+ gold along the way and have their trades with other teams. IMHO, the deal is generous enough to make them view us in a better light...

If they flat refuse or are difficult... then... well, we can generously gift Monarchy to GoW and ND in a couple of turns. That should immensely help our relations with these teams.

I have already PMed Togas telling him we need to talk about something (saying nothing specific, mentioning an "unexpected" development only), so I need you thoughts on this ASAP.

[Tiberius]

Believe me or not, I was preparing to post the exact same proposal (except for the payment part, which I would have leaved open for discussions). I didn't post it only because I didn't have the time.

So yes, good idea

[Sharpe]

I don't know that we should be talking about trading Monarchy around until we decide if we are going to switch governments as well - especially trading it to religious civs who can switch governments in one turn...

They will likely want it NOW. But we shouldn't until we decide what we are doing. One things for sure, the Religious civs WILL switch governments - all of them including ND and GS as well (and both of them would be mad at us for not telling them that we have Monarchy). As well there is the possibility that if GS gets Monarchy that they might slow down their Republic research.

As well GoW may well be angry if the two other Bob civs suddenly change governments before they can.

As for the important topic with Togas you could always stall by saying that you heard that they have luxuries and are interested in trading for them (conveniently forgetting that we can't because of the sea square between us) or possibly letting them know that we have the Bob Map (could be that ND has let the other Bob civs know anyway).

[Tiberius]

Oh yes, Sharpe is right. Actually that was a difference between this proposal and my thoughts, but I didn't realize it until now. I would have given Monarchy to the RPs after a number of turns (say in the turn of the Republic exchange).

[vondrack]

Respectfully, I disagree. RPers will learn that someone got Monarchy on THIS TURN. They are not dumb and they will most likely suspect us - as they know nobody else could possibly have it researched the hard way so far. The only civ that might still have a hut to pop is us.

So, if we try to "hide" the fact from RPers, it will only help deteriorating our relations further.

I completely agree that RPers will switch their gov ASAP, even though I would not be so sure they would do it immediately - but believe me, they will not trade Monarchy around too fast, exactly because they would be denying themselves an advantage of switching to Monarchy early (ahead of others) themselves.

As for our government changes - I believe it is very obvious we will not be changing governments until Jackson is done building The Pyramids. Plus, we will certainly not switch to Monarchy, but to Republic. So, by delaying the trade for 15+ turns, we do not help ourselves in any way, just "harm" RPers - and that is exactly what we do not want to do at this time. Not if they are able to find out.

Let's grant them few turns of economic advantage over us. We know we will outgrow them soon anyway. And such a generous offering will sure make them regain trust in our good intentions.

However, considering they will be able to switch to Monarchy immediately (which I forgot of) I would add the following provisions to the proposal:

1) raise the second part of the payment to 200 gold
2) include a 10 turn no-whoring clause

They will try to bargain, so we may ease the gold part later again, plus we will make sure it's only them to get the economic advantage of switching to Monarchy early.

And one more time - keep in mind that we will not be able to hide the fact it was us having Monarchy. If we decide to go openly hostile towards RP, then so be it, keep Monarchy away from them and whore it around in 9 turns. But if we want to be friends, we really have no other option, but sell it to them ASAP, just negotiating a fair price.

[Tiberius]

I didn't say to hide the fact that we have Monarchy, but give it to them after a number of turns. They can shut down their research completely and give us 250 gold on the delivery of Monarchy. They should understand we can't give it to them now, as this would be a huge advantage for them. Plus, one way or another, other teams would find out that they have it, and everybody will know that they couldn't possibly research it that fast. So, we will have a lot of suspicions from not one, but 4 teams. Is that better?

Edit: we can agree maybe on a compromise: we give them Monarchy in 5 turns, they give us 125 gold and don't trade Monarchy for another 5 turns, when they give us another 125 gold. How about this?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I didn't say to hide the fact that we have Monarchy, but give it to them after a number of turns. They can shut down their research completely and give us 250 gold on the delivery of Monarchy. They should understand we can't give it to them now, as this would be a huge advantage for them.

Well, this is exactly a reason they will not be willing to accept. If we claim to be their friends, we can hardly use "we do not want you to get such a big advantage" argument, I think. Judging from my past encounters with Togas (and his brilliant effort in the ISDG game, where he completely alienated CDG for absolutely no gain), he is not really an overly reasonable person...

Originally posted by Tiberius
Plus, one way or another, other teams would find out that they have it, and everybody will know that they couldn't possibly research it that fast. So, we will have a lot of suspicions from not one, but 4 teams. Is that better?

Others are less likely to find out... they are not researching it, thus not keeping their eye on it so closely (at least we can hope for that). Though the point is valid and it would probably be fine to point it out to RPers, too. They themselves may realize it would be better to postpone the monarchy switch for a couple of turns, since they would then be able to confuse others by "getting" it earlier then anticipated, thus indicating a very good research output. Good idea, we can definitely us it in negotiations.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Edit: we can agree maybe on a compromise: we give them Monarchy in 5 turns, they give us 125 gold and don't trade Monarchy for another 5 turns, when they give us another 125 gold. How about this?

I am very open to adjusting the payment figures - what I started with was just an idea... I would probably start with 150+150 and allow Togas to bargain down to like 125+125 or 100+150... and I would definitely try to make him agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack

I am very open to adjusting the payment figures - what I started with was just an idea... I would probably start with 150+150 and allow Togas to bargain down to like 125+125 or 100+150... and I would definitely try to make him agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest.

If i was up to me, the timeline would look like this.
- we tell them to shut down their research
- in 5 turns we give them Monarchy, and they pay us 125 gold, with the promise that they keep it secret another 5 turns.
- in 10 turns they gave us the other half of the payment, and they are free to trade Monarchy.

I'm afraid that trying to make Togas "agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest" is not enough. He won't accept it as an advice. We have to present this as part of the treaty. This is our insurance. He must accept it. The alternative is that we trade Monarchy with all of the other nations and leave them out.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
If i was up to me, the timeline would look like this.
- we tell them to shut down their research
- in 5 turns we give them Monarchy, and they pay us 125 gold, with the promise that they keep it secret another 5 turns.
- in 10 turns they gave us the other half of the payment, and they are free to trade Monarchy.

I'm afraid that trying to make Togas "agree on a certain delay in switching to Monarchy, explaining it's in their own interest" is not enough. He won't accept it as an advice. We have to present this as part of the treaty. This is our insurance. He must accept it. The alternative is that we trade Monarchy with all of the other nations and leave them out.

I still suggest we start with 150+150.
We need to be able to make a "compromise" late on. Starting with a figure we WANT to get is - in this case - bad bargaining.

I agree that the delay shall be part of the treaty, but we shall it make so by means of explaining and posing as feeling "possible strongly disliked" by other teams, if it becomes publicly known or suspected we sold Monarchy to RPers with exclusive resale rights.

Your timeline inspired me to this:

IMMEDIATELY:
1) tell RPers we have Monarchy and are willing to trade it to them together with exclusive resale rights.
2) explain our concerns about other teams disliking an arrangement like this, if they ever find out about it.
3) suggest the following arrangement:

4) We give them Monarchy as soon as they are able to pay us 150 gold. They agree to not switch to it until Turn 82 (this effectively means they would probably want to buy it on Turn 82). They agree to not resell it until the other part of the payment (see below) is fulfilled.
5) They are free and granted to buy the exclusive rights for Monarchy resale for additional 150 gold within the following 10-15 turns. The exclusivity would expire 20 turns after they pay this second payment to us.

And if they bargain, we may go down to 125+125... or something similar, add a turn here or there...

EDIT: oh, and one thing to keep in mind... NEVER try presenting ideas like "the other way round is we whore Monarchy around and you will end up screwed..." to Togas. NEVER EVER. That is going to drive him mad in no time... resulting in emotional rather than rational approach.

[Tiberius]

Sounds good. I agree.

oh, and one thing to keep in mind... NEVER try presenting ideas like "the other way round is we whore Monarchy around and you will end up screwed..." to Togas. NEVER EVER. That is going to drive him mad in no time... resulting in emotional rather than rational approach

I know. It is what they should think/know, without us saying it.

[ZargonX]

Well, I would kind of view this as the final test in our relations with RP. If they accept the deal, which is a good deal, then great, maybe we can patch things up. If they don't accept it, or get upset by the fact that we got Monarchy (through no fault of our own), then I would pretty much give up on trying to helpful to them. As you said, Vondrack, Togas has a tendancy to react very emotionally in his diplomacy, so if he gives us a bad reaction, I say forget 'em.

[Kloreep]

Looks good.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Well, I would kind of view this as the final test in our relations with RP. If they accept the deal, which is a good deal, then great, maybe we can patch things up. If they don't accept it, or get upset by the fact that we got Monarchy (through no fault of our own), then I would pretty much give up on trying to helpful to them. As you said, Vondrack, Togas has a tendancy to react very emotionally in his diplomacy, so if he gives us a bad reaction, I say forget 'em.

Agreed. Togas shouldn't have even an RP excuse to reject this one.