Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

OK, enough of this crap. I am getting sick of it. This is a draft I am posting for your comments. I would like to dispatch this message, possibly amended based upon your comments, to RPers within 2 days.

Esteemed Ambassador,

As you probably know, Legoland already has the map of your continent and thus has no need to trade for it.

While we do understand your mighty ruler would like to learn about the geography of our homeland, trading our world map is, for various reasons, not an option. Legoland does not trade its world map. Should getting the map become a prerequisite for signing our treaty, the Senate of Legoland will not be able ratify it, and to our greatest grief, there will be no defense pact between our glorious nations.

Also, as you must know by now, Legoland already possesses the knowledge of Monotheism, so we have to regretfully decline your recent trading proposal.

On behalf of the people of Legoland,
vondrack, The President

Cold, brief, unfriendly. Just as they are.

[Sharpe]

Actually that is a little more kind than I thought you would put it , but it is fine the way it is - as I stated in the GoW thread, no need to push RP into another's camp - there is a difference between being allies and enemies.

[Tiberius]

Sounds good.
Maybe we should also mention that the NAP (or MPP or whatever) draft we sent to them was just a draft; nothing more. It must be ratified by vote by the Senate of Legoland before it becomes official.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Sounds good.
Maybe we should also mention that the NAP (or MPP or whatever) draft we sent to them was just a draft; nothing more. It must be ratified by vote by the Senate of Legoland before it becomes official.

I believe they are very well aware of it - the PM from Thud expressly states Togas "might not" approve the pact, if we refused to provide them with our world map. Which kinda implies they do not consider it valid yet either. But I see your point and will try adding a sentence to that effect.

And as adding this extra map clause is just plain unacceptable for us, they have no good reason to pose as "offended" if we do not sign the treaty now. The map is a major issue for us - and we made it very clear in the past that we never intended to trade our world map.

As I mentioned in the chat last night, I am quite sure RPers are either trying to make the deal so lopsided it would still be okay for them (despite the fact they might be obliged to actually help us one day), or that they deliberately ask for something they know we will not accept to avoid signing the treaty now, while not becoming those that "actually" trash it. Most of you will probably remember that I, from the very beginning, felt like Togas would never sign such a treaty at all... and this is more or less what I expected.

EDIT: added a bit of text to the draft to incorporate Tibi's suggestion. See above - the text in bold letters.

[Tiberius]

OK, sounds very good now.

Speculating a bit on what are the RPs after, I can see 3 possibilities:

1. no conspiracy theory They want a pact and a WM exchange

2. the plan was from the beginning to get our WM and the whole MPP was only a diversion, a well-thought out plan on how to get our WM

3. they wanted the pact in the beginning, but GoW is preparing the psichological terrain for their invasion in the south (GoW+Vox +ND against RP) and thus selling crap stories to the RPs that we are the next victim; all this to divert the RPs attention; as a result, Togas is playing the "delay the pact" game again, like he did with Lux.

[Kloreep]

Message looks good.

[vondrack]

Unless there is a serious objection raised within the next few hours, I hereby authorize Nimitz to hand the note over to the RP ambassador.

[vondrack]

Well, seems like RPers are really eager to have a peek at our map... Togas the Almighty bothered himself to start a private chat with me today:

Session Start: Wed Apr 09 19:27:21 2003
Session Ident: Togas
Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@209.78.90.10)
Togas: I'm concerned that our diplomats are taking too long in getting the Protection Pact between us finalized
Togas: is there anything I can do to help facilitate this?
vondrack: well, Nimitz was supposed to send your ambassador a message yesterday
vondrack: dunno why he did not do that
Togas: I don't know either.
vondrack: he was having connection problems... maybe that was the reason...
vondrack: anyway
vondrack: there seems to be a major problem
vondrack: since Legoland is not ready to trade its map
Togas: TM would be fine.
vondrack: TM?
Togas: territory map
Togas: we were all excited about the pact in our forum until someone posted a very insightful post:
Togas: "Where is legoland?"
Togas: it was like we were making a pact with an imaginary nation far across the seas
Togas: and the whole thing became somewhat absurd. We'd be willing to protect a land and we didn't even know where it was
vondrack:
vondrack: well, I understand
vondrack: but that does not change our stance
Togas: why so paranoid?
vondrack: I do not think it is paranoia
Togas: I do.
Togas: We're your allies. This is basically a MPP
Togas: if anyone settles on your land we'd declare war on them.
Togas: This is a strong pact, something that no two nations in this game have yet done.
Togas: you guys just fear we'll give the map away?
Togas: why would we give it away? So other people could invade you and force us to declare war on them?
vondrack: well, you see... I understand you PoV... let me try explaining ours
vondrack: Legoland actually never expects any other nation to commit troops to defense of the land we call Legos - that is something we plan to handle ourselves at all times
vondrack: OTOH, any "invading nation" would have to come from across the sea
vondrack: either from Bob or Estonia
vondrack: all the military help we might ever need would be actually needed on Bob/Estonia, not Legos
vondrack: that is the PoV most of our members share
vondrack: also, we do believe that the longer our map stays with us only, the better
vondrack: it is not only about geography
vondrack: even territory map gives quite an idea about the economy, about the potential
vondrack: we prefer keeping this kind of information to ourselves
vondrack: I am sorry if this is not what you'd wish
vondrack: but it is a team policy I am bound to follow
vondrack: no map trades
vondrack: ever
Togas: So if we got invaded, you would not send troops?
vondrack: that is something different
Togas: is it?
vondrack: we WOULD commit troops
vondrack: send them over
vondrack: but we already have your map
vondrack: so that is already covered
* Togas sighs.
Togas: You have our map, we don't have yours.
vondrack: yes, that's how it is
Togas: your team may feel that it protects your interests, but it really gives a cold shoulder to us.
vondrack: sorry to hear you might understand it that way
Togas: No misunderstanding at all.
Togas: we'll never be able to trust you guys if you can't trust us.
Togas: At some point in the game, I hope that your team can just understand that trust is a risk, but it's worth the risk sometimes.
vondrack: well
vondrack: I am just trying to explain a policy that was set by the team as a whole
Togas: I hear you.
vondrack: at this moment, it is all I can do
Togas: I hope one day you'll reconsider the policy, it's far too narrow and isolationist, IMO.
vondrack: it's not that it was set by a vote eons ago - there was another discussion after we got your last diplo note
vondrack: still, the result was the same
Togas: It's going to make things very difficult for alliances. No one likes a "one sided" alliance.
vondrack: The very first draft of the alliance treaty never mentioned any map trades. The purpose of the alliance is to help the other party out if there is a need. If a moment comes and there is a need, we may reconsider our map-related policy. Right now, we feel there is no need.
vondrack: would the map change anything with the treaty? with how it is worded? what it obliges both parties to?
Togas: I'm not sure where we stand. I would be irresponsible to sign a treaty and no know what I'm territory I'm actually agreeing to defend.
Togas: it's like signing a blank check, you know?
vondrack: I understand. It is your right to not sign the treaty under these circumstances. Legoland would understand. No hard feelings.
Togas: perhaps in the future when GOW's maping trip is complete and we buy their map we'll know better.
vondrack: perhaps
Togas: but I have to admit, getting the map of your "friend" from your enemy isn't the way we like to find things out
vondrack: is GoW your enemy?
vondrack: sorry to sidetrack
vondrack: I was just surprised to hear so
Togas: Enemy is a bit strong, I suppose
Togas: Competator is more like it.
vondrack: I see
Togas: anyhow, maybe Nimitz and Aidun can work out something that helps bridge the gap
vondrack: ok, I will tell Nimitz to get (and keep!) in touch

Summary (mostly for fun ):
1) Legoland suffers from paranoia. (Togas is sure about that)
2) RPers are our allies. (Togas claims so)
3) We are giving RPers a cold shoulder. (Togas feels so - no misunderstanding possible )
4) RPers will never be able to trust us (as we will never trust them).

I believe that this chat achieved more than the message we were getting ready to send. No need to send it anymore then. RPers know what our stance is and Togas even remained acceptably calm... let's see what they try in the next round...

[vondrack]

Another round... shortly after Togas gave up...

Session Start: Wed Apr 09 22:14:44 2003
Session Ident: #Embassy_LS
* Now talking in #Embassy_LS
vondrack: hello
Aidun: Hi
Aidun: We have some serious matters to discuss
vondrack: ok, go ahead
Aidun: I just heard from Togas that the MPP deal is going difficult
vondrack: well, yes... your recent demand for our map is something we cannot agree to
Aidun: What is your problem with it?
vondrack: the problem is that Legoland does not trade its maps
vondrack: general team policy
Aidun: I understand that
Aidun: very reasonable
vondrack: the policy has always been set in stone so much that we even agreed to include clauses in our past treaties with other parties (that asked for our map as well), binding us to trade the map to THEM if we ever traded it to anyone else
Aidun: What reason did you have to set that in stone, I'm just interesting
vondrack: well... if others have no information about where we are and how we are set up, it seemed and still seems like a very good extra level of protection
vondrack: not only from the military point of view
vondrack: but from the "economy" point of view, too
Aidun: you mean the trade of your map for money?
vondrack: until our map becomes part of other team(s)' map(s), nobody actually knows what our status is - number of cities, their potential, weak points... nothing
vondrack: which is what we kind of like
vondrack: nope, I do not mean trading our map for gold later on
Aidun: ok, we can have an agreement with you about trading out worldmap to others
vondrack: it is just being able to play with cards nobody else is able to see
vondrack: what kind of an agreement you have in mind?
Aidun: Well, we can agree that we don't sell our world map to other nations, although, I have to get such an agreement approved by Togas of course
vondrack: I am sorry that would not help anyway
vondrack: as I explained before - if we ever trade our map to anyone, we are bound to trade it other parties, too
vondrack: besides, such a clause would be VERY restricting to you - I seriously doubt it would be reasonable for you to accept it
Aidun: oh yes, I understand
Aidun: it would, but I rather like to explore all the opportunities first before making decisions
vondrack: we can, however, include such a clause in our treaty as well (that once we trade the map to anyone, we'd be bound to trade it to you, too)... but I fear that's not what would solve the problem I understand you have
vondrack: as I fully understand that signing a defense pact with someone you do not really know anything about is sort of risky
Aidun: The problem we have is that we are going to defend a country that we know and which borders are defined, but of wich we have still no idea
vondrack: I understand
Aidun: That involves how stong our army should be
Aidun: if we want to defend ourselves as well as you, we need a larger army, but how large, that depends on how large legoland is
vondrack: well, I would not put it this way
Aidun: what kind of army depends on what kind of terrain Legoland has
vondrack: Legoland will have army large enough to defend its homeland
vondrack: at all times
Aidun: of course
Aidun: but
vondrack: to be honest, the part of the treaty that deals with "declaring war" is rather vague
vondrack: what exactly does that mean?
Aidun: We can come to your aid with one swordsmen, one horsmen, seven horsemen or seven swordsmen
Aidun: for instance
vondrack: I know... however, the exact "size" of any military help would be negotiatied on a case by case basis, I presume?
vondrack: I do not think it is technically possible to cover that in the treaty
vondrack: so, let's say Legoland does not expect (and the treaty does not guarantee it either) to receive military help deployed in our homeland - certainly not of any specific extent
Aidun: you are right, we cannot include that and it would not be good to do so, but do you think we can have those soldiers ready at the moment whan you request them? Perhaps we are also involved in another war or we have concentrated on building. What is a treaty worth if we cannot assure you that we have enough troops?
vondrack: Well, as I explained, Legoland does not really expect any other (friendly) nation to deploy troops on its soil. Any and all military help provided under such a treaty would most probably concentrate on diverting/tying forces of the enemy by attacking him on his soil, implementing trade embargoes etc. Thus, whenever you are ready to wage war with your neighbours, you are ready to help us.

I am starting to lose my patience.

Is there anyone doubting RPers actually want our map ONLY, having no true desire in the proposed defense pact?

I can see it in vivid colors... we give them our map and Togas then all of a sudden "realizes" it would be very irresponsible for Spain to enter such an alliance, as their current military is simply not up to a defense pact involving THAT much of land on the Legoland side. He would, "with the greatest grief", be forced to not sign the pact "both parties spent so much time working on."

[vondrack]

Just a quick note... chatting with BigFree in the ISDG room yesterday, I touched the issue of selling them Theology for gold + no-Sistine clause. I made it totally unofficial, reluctantly mentioning the sum of 250 gold in the end, but adding all kinds of usual mumbo-jumbo about the price being difficult to set, me being certainly hung if missing the price Lego actually thinks of... and blah blah blah...

As a true RPer, BigFree immediately drew our world map into the discussion (those guys are obessed with our map ), which I promptly ruled out, but he promised to take the Theo for gold+noSistine idea to his team.

[Sharpe]

As a true RPer, BigFree immediately drew our world map into the discussion (those guys are obessed with our map ), which I promptly ruled out, but he promised to take the Theo for gold+noSistine idea to his team.

Obsessed might be a bit of an understatement, Radek ... Paranoid may be more descriptive...

Their continued interest in our map despite GoW's mapping might hint that GoW hasn't traded their world map to RP like they have done with Vox. Interesting...

If so and with RP now expanding to 12 cities - they are probably puzzled as to how they are at most #3 in most categories. Given their knowledge of the Bob civs, it is highly probable that RP guesses that it is us and GS that are in front of them. This might also worry them as the 2 of us are also likely the ones RP knows least about.

With their port locations it is likely that RP has or will be sending ships to scout the nearby GS coastline and so we are the great enigma to them (and that probably frustrates them to death given their tactics so far... which seem to be based on diplomacy which also requires knowledge of the capabilities of the other civs - though they might have no clue as to how badly they are doing there as well )

[ZargonX]

Chatting with BF in the ISDG chatroom last night, just the two of us, and ended up getting some interesting information...

ZargonX> I'm just waiting around for the PTWDG save from Vox...
ZargonX> give me something to do
BigFree> rp went through it pretty fast
BigFree> how goes the war prep?
ZargonX> war?
ZargonX> to what do you refer?
BigFree> the one you support over in Esonia
BigFree> I assume that you don't send units, but cash instead to Vox
BigFree> it's the logical thing to do
ZargonX> nah, we don't really have much to do with that. We just like to hear stories about it
ZargonX> it's much closer to your doorstep... how do you all feel about it?
BigFree> Well Vox says you have been helping them immensely
ZargonX> oh, but we are a modest people
BigFree> LOL
BigFree> we, of couse, have simpathies for Vox
ZargonX> heheh, GS hasn't endeared too many people, have they?
BigFree> not really.
BigFree> it's a world war, 5 versus 1
ZargonX> any expeditions over to Estonia in the works for you all?
BigFree> of course...
BigFree> how about you?
ZargonX> I doubt it highly. 'tis a far off place for us simple Lego folk...
BigFree> seriously though we have comitted to sending 6 units, possibly 10 depending on things...
ZargonX> that's quite a force
ZargonX> and I reckon quite a suprise for GS
BigFree> well, hwne you consider if you add that to what Vox has
ZargonX> yes, that's definately something that can turn a tide of battle
BigFree> and maybe some other Civ that may be involved too; all those units add up to trouble fro GS
ZargonX> definately
ZargonX> *sigh* don't think I'll be getting the turn tonight, though...
ZargonX> Voxes are probably all asleep :P
BigFree> I don't think it's good for GS to go unchecked, that's why I think that Lego is doing the right thing by helping out.
BigFree> BH has been having connection problems
ZargonX> yes, so I heard
ZargonX> I think wittlich is their turn player now
BigFree> ah
BigFree> they need 3
BigFree> we have 4-5
ZargonX> they have another.. but I'm not sure off hand
ZargonX> we have 3 at Lego now

So, what we've learned is..

-Our aid to Vox seems to pretty much be public knowledge now to everyone but GS. Guess the secret is out. I didn't ever confirm anything to him, but it's pretty clear RP knows first-hand.
-RP is sending military aid to Vox. I for one wasn't expecting that...
-Another part is sending units to help Vox. I'm going to assume it's GoW, as they have indicated such elsewhere.
-Everyone is going on the premise that GS is too powerful a team to be left in a strong position. This is good for us, as I see it, because that means more time for us to solidify our position while everyone else is off fighting.

[Tiberius]

Yep, that's very good news. The only bad thing is that the Bobians are united against a common enemy, which is worrying. Hopefully after this they will turn against each other, but that's not sure. They may see us as the next big threat.

ZargonX: this time for the chat

[vondrack]

I can confirm what ZargonX found out by information from other source, though BigFree's speculation about our money aiding Voxes' cause is mostly just that - a speculation. All he probably heard from BetaHound was that we are "helping immensely", as he put it - which is true. All that gold, techs, and even intel from time to time... keep in mind that BetaHound will use the fact we are on their side to draw other allies in, though he will probably be reluctant to disclose how exactly we are involved... People like to be on the stronger side...

I even had a chat with Master Zen once... he knew we were helping a lot, but did not know what exactly was the form of our help... and I did not tell him directly, either. So it is a public secret, but one that keeps others less than fully informed... Zargon's way of confirming the fact, while not giving more details is exactly what we should keep doing.

BigFree's information now confirms and explains the vague info from BetaHound I have had even before - he indicated something like that RPers offered "more than spiritual support " some time ago, but would not tell me more. GoW is the other team providing military support, yes.

And regarding ND - I heard that during the rule of [DG]mav_son, ND's relations with other Bobians deteriorated a lot... to an extent of making them a likely target of the next war. With Darekill (who has been credited with notable successes in the diplo arena by that same person... though I honestly can't remember who it was now) now probably running the team again, things may have changed since then. But what I heard was that ND was helping with resources (horses) only, no direct military involvement.

[Nimitz]

With RP helping Vox will need to keep an eye on its back I don't trust them, we should also keep an on voxes back to warn them if any thing happens if we can.