Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Tiberius]

Not only I don't find this an optimal solution, like you said, Zargon, but I find it totally unacceptable. Any solution involving GS gaining land on Bob is utterly out of question for me.

This "GS want only to prevent ND to win the game" is such a crap. They want to prevent anyone winning this game, except them. Isn't this what everybody wants? "They want land on Bob because otherwise they can't win". Duh, of course, and this exactly why LEF is on Bob, to prevent GS from winning.

What RP is obviously trying to do, is to convince us to join them in this war. Not only I think that this is against our interest, but I also have personal reasons: I want RP to pay for their attitude during this game. They can't treat us well in one chat and hope that we will suddenly fall in love and adore RP.

[Tiberius]

Arnelos> In other words, RP would agree to trade and be friendly with Lego

Facts, not words, please.
They could and should have done it earlier, not now when they are dying. Their promises means zero. Nothing. Nil. We know exactly how the RP diplomacy worked and how RP trade proposals looked in the past. No, thank you, I'd rather "live" in a RP-free world.

[ZargonX]

Not only I don't find this an optimal solution, like you said, Zargon, but I find it totally unacceptable. Any solution involving GS gaining land on Bob is utterly out of question for me.

Don't worry, Tiberius, I don't really think it's optimal either. Nor do I even think it's possible. Honor Code or no, I'm willing to believe that GS would stomp RP into the ground if they won the war to claim Bob for themselves. If it looked like a path to victory, they'd take it.

I feel kind of bad for Arnelos, because he was gone when RP diplo went so, so wrong. He's clearly trying to mend fences now, and while I appreciate that, I don't think RP is going to be around long enough for it to pay off

[Tiberius]

GS doesn't need to stomp RP. RP are so weak that they are no longer a threat. GS want to stomp GoW and RP because they are a potential threat. Just imagine how much land GS would have on Bob, should they win this war. I suppose that "the small land GS would get" north from RP is currently known as ND

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Don't worry, Tiberius, I don't really think it's optimal either.

Well, why did you say it then? They are probably still assuming that you are the President and that you can convince us to do what you want, while we know this isn't true

[redstar1]

I'd like to pick up on a couple of things Arnelos said which point to another reason why we are on the side we are...

He says that GOW and ND (GOW in particular) are committed to military action. He also says that come RR we will be able to defend Lego easily.

Well in essence this is what we want. We want to be impregnible in our own lands, we want others to see us that way. We also want the other teams to be too preoccupied with military to be bothered about building, because we want a spaceship victory.

Surely in trying to argue the reasons we should join RP/GS, he's given us exactly the excuse we need not to...

[vondrack]

OK, read through the chatlog... just a couple of comments:

Z, it is completely up to you... but I'd suggest being a bit more careful about expressing agreement about what the other party says (like that 'optimal solution' part). Sometimes, your comments, which we know are largely meant as a formality or simply maintaining polite conversation, may lead the other party into believeing you like the ideas presented and support them. While I am not saying it is a bad thing overall and under every circumstances, it can later, when the other party finds out how things really are, be held against you personally (or even against the team).

Even if I do not care about whether RP FAM is mad at us or not, it's always better to avoid 'misunderstandings' of this kind. I am not mentioning this specifically because of this chat, because you did well, cleverly avoiding the need to tell Arnelos what kind of a power setup we are preferring on Bob. Just keep it in your mind when talking to other teams... it has bitten you/us in the past (with the GoW tech deal) and I can see it's sort of your habit to talk in this manner.

Not meant as a rant, really - I am mentioning it here especially because it has not really done any harm this time... allowing for a point made not in anger or displeasure.

And now regarding the chat:

I have to say I really dislike the way RPers act. They seem to be the least honourable, least noble team of this whole game. Just think of it - in this chat, they are in fact plotting against GS, which is the team that has helped them survive. I know, GS had other reasons to intervene, too, but I still find it very difficult to swallow. It is as if Voxes started plotting against us. I believe that when you lose, you shall admit it, and if you are left alive, it's imperative you do not turn against the one that left you alive or - even worse - against the one that helped you survive. :shrug:

Arnelos is in fact trying to persuade us that a "stable" world involves Bob divided between them, GS (but not much ...), and Vox (and maybe ND and GoW, if they are "reasonable" ...). Do you find this idea as crazy as I do? I think Bob split in half between ND and GoW is MUCH more stable. Neither of the Bobian powers would risk attacking the other one, as, obviously, non-Bobian powers would immediately intervene. Neither of non-Bobian powers will be in a position to invade Bob once RRs appear... I believe that THAT is what best suits our plans (no surprise, as that's the plan we currently follow), as we are fairly confident we will be able to outbuild GoW & ND, while not having to care about GS. There is no room for RP in this equation.

Second, Arnelos is trying to persuade us that the war is going well. Not sure if he really believes that or is just pretending it, but we know the war is NOT going well for them - and that it will get worse soon with the arrival of GoW/ND muskets.

Third, Arnelos has been kind enough to assure us RPers would be willing to be friendly to and trade with us. BEG YOUR PARDON? I've always thought there was a treaty binding them to be our friends and trading partners! I'd bet my last cent on that RPers would turn against us the very first moment they could gain from it. There is no other team as untrustworthy as them... Tibi puts it right - deeds, not words.

And redstar makes another excellent point - with other teams committed to warring and us happily building, the world is just wonderful.

All in all... I believe this chat has been yet another example of an RP diplomat trying to pull something that cannot really be pulled... something based upon quite incorrect assumptions - and possibly using arguments which only fools would believe.

I am just looking forward to seeing Aggie posting "save sent to Vox" soooo much...

[Sharpe]

I don't entirely believe Arnelos or RP either - though I think several of us have thought that RP's demise may not happen if GS evacuates them to the former Vox area.

I don't like the notion that they are already talking about an anti-GS idea - talk about biting the hand that feeds them...

That being said I am growing more concerned about us perhaps helping create a monster that we can't handle in helping GoW and ND. From the ISDG and from GoW actions in the PTWDG1, it is becoming more clear that GoW and ND are welded together at the hip - a nearly unbreakable alliance. We can't allow them to control all of Bob IMHO - their capacity for growth, commerce and shields would vastly outnumber ours.

I am also worried that now that it is known that GS has no easy access to saltpeter, that the Bob alliance may be regarding us as their remaining threat - as we do have saltpeter, more territory and vastly more shield capacity than GS (even they can see that from their maps).

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
That being said I am growing more concerned about us perhaps helping create a monster that we can't handle in helping GoW and ND. From the ISDG and from GoW actions in the PTWDG1, it is becoming more clear that GoW and ND are welded together at the hip - a nearly unbreakable alliance. We can't allow them to control all of Bob IMHO - their capacity for growth, commerce and shields would vastly outnumber ours.

I, too, believe GoW and ND are cooperating very closely, beyond what their own selfish goals would cover... and that they do trust each other. However, I'm not all that concerned about them controlling the whole of Bob. Bob is about twice the size of Legos Major - so, if they split Bob into two halves of approximately the same size, they would only get what we already have (and what we have been developing since Turn 1 - unlike them). Their COMBINED potential would be something to worry about, if we were to face it alone. But if you combine their potential, you must combine also the potential of the rest of the world. And I am fairly confident that us, Vox, and GS would be just the proper counterbalance.

ATM, we are able to match or nearly match both GoW and ND in all aspects... and they are in their GA, while we are not! That says a lot.

Originally posted by Sharpe
I am also worried that now that it is known that GS has no easy access to saltpeter, that the Bob alliance may be regarding us as their remaining threat - as we do have saltpeter, more territory and vastly more shield capacity than GS (even they can see that from their maps).

Now, out of the remaining teams, we would be the strongest rival, that's correct. However, that's exactly why we would be the LAST target... they know very well that we would be a very tough nut to crack - and the very minute they turn hostile, we gift saltpeter to GS... and there's a world war with two very similarly powerful sides (us+GS+Vox would be of the same power as GoW+ND).

Now, I do not think that ANY hostile action from their side is technically possible within a foreseeable future. GoW and ND will have tough time getting rid of RP, they will lose many units, spend a lot of gold, their whole GA... while we are happily building our a$$es off here, with all those aqueducts, workers, and whatnot...

While carefully watching the situation is definitely a must, I do not think anything prompts a change in our mid-term strategy. Let's make sure GS does not gain any foothold on Bob - up to the extent of having Bob divided between GoW and ND only. With RP gone, GS cut to size, and ND and GoW facing the rebuild phase, we will have time enough to respond to whatever might happen we currently cannot foresee.

Keep in mind that even after GoW and ND conquer the whole of Bob, they will have to (re)settle it, redistribute their cities, build infrastructure in them, develop the surrounding lands - and until THAT is done (quite some time, as only GoW is industrious), they will be extremely vulnerable, as undeveloped lands are easier to invade than fully (rail)roaded terrain with (barracked) cities conveniently placed all along the border/coast.

Another point worth making: GS is weak or no threat only as long as having no saltpeter. Give them 'peter and they are a power to consider. Weaker than us, but still something you cannot leave unchecked in your backyard. So - as long as we are with GoW and ND, they do not have to fear GS that much (at least I hope so). But if they turn against us, we help GS quickly rise to power again (not that I would be dying to get that far).

[redstar1]

Just one thing to make a point on, and it adds to what I said earlier....

"... and there's a world war with two very similarly powerful sides (us+GS+Vox would be of the same power as GoW+ND)."

This is efffictively incorrect. It relies on the statistics only. The reality will be very different, they will have to attack us. They will have to get past the Lego navy, they will have to get past well defended cities and they will have to get past large counter offensive forces backed by artillery and railroads

[vondrack]

Originally posted by redstar1
Just one thing to make a point on, and it adds to what I said earlier....

"... and there's a world war with two very similarly powerful sides (us+GS+Vox would be of the same power as GoW+ND)."

This is efffictively incorrect. It relies on the statistics only. The reality will be very different, they will have to attack us. They will have to get past the Lego navy, they will have to get past well defended cities and they will have to get past large counter offensive forces backed by artillery and railroads

That's correct - but I was speaking more about the power of economy... ability to (out)research, (out)build etc. It goes without saying that their military losses would be tremendous, as I believe such an invasion cannot really happen before we lay at least the basic RR network.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by vondrack
It goes without saying that their military losses would be tremendous, as I believe such an invasion cannot really happen before we lay at least the basic RR network.

I disagree here. ND and GoW will have quite an attack force of Knight UUs and Catapults left over from this war; an attack force that can upgrade to Cavalry and Cannons. I think we should plan for an invasion, using Cav loaded on either Caravels or Galleys, shortly before we get to RRs. Unless, of course, ND and GoW both decide to go the building path on Bob, but I don't see that as likely. As stated in this thread, there's not much chance of them catching up to us, so I bet at least one will try to bring us down, and they'll strike before we get our best defensive weapon: RRs.

Time to build those Knights for upgrade to counter-offensive Cavs!

[Kloreep]

PM from Arnelos

Kloreep,

(copy of message sent to ZargonX)

Despite our victory this turn against some GoW riders, it is apparent that we cannot stand against the hordes. Between GS and RP, we simply do not have the forces to stop them from sweeping Southern Bob. Through the majority of the war, they have kept so many riders stacked together that we can only hope to wound some, most of which retreat. Only a few have we killed.

From what we have heard and what we have seen, we suspect that GoW and ND possess UU's totalling more than 30 each, almost all of which are likely to survive the current war to claim all of Bob for their two civs.

Should such an enormous force of UU's survive this war, it would be relatively easy for them to build fleets for the invasion of Legos and Stormia. Given that the GoW is dedicated to winning the game by force of arms, this is their goal, irregardless of what hollow claims they may make to other civilizations. Afterall, GoW was still officially allied to RP when they attacked. Should they see an opportunity to strike Stormia and Legos to win the game, they will not hesitate to do so. The same goes for ND and these two allies seem far closer to each other than RP and GS, or anyone to Lego.

If Legoland is interested in preventing an ND/GoW victory over all of Bob, it is imperative that you act now or never. I am not waxing melodramatic when I say that RP could very well be wiped off of Bob in the next few turns, along with GS holdings in Southern Bob. Despite the small victories we have been afforded recently, the odds are simply too overwhelming. Once they bring their full army off healthy UUs to bear, the most we can hope to do is slow them down.

There is one thing that might give us a chance to actually hold Southern Bob and that is gunpowder, which we are aware that you possess. Since we may not have a source of saltpeter already linked, it may be necessary (on a temporary basis) to provide that as well if you have it.

Aside from the obvious benefit of preventing ND and GoW from claiming all of Bob with plenty of Riders and Ansar Warriors left over to invade other continents, if you are willing to substantially aid us, we can offer you future binding agreements to provide our luxuries to you when we regain our land as well as an offer from GS to provide you with incense (of which they have extra). I have spoken to GS about that and they seem willing to provide their incense to Legoland in return for RP having a fighting chance to itself.

In terms of other conditions upon such an agreement, we can understand if you have certain concerns about whether gunpowder would be shared with GS, something which we are fully willing to negotiate with you. In short, our position is truly desperate and we're willing to take aid where we can get it, how we can get it. It may even be possible to get GS to agree to such an arrangement (I have begun discussing this with them).

In terms of other issues, I have already told you what our goals in this war are and how I believe the interests of Lego, RP, Vox, and GS to contain ND and GoW while retaining the balance of power could all be achieved without imperiling Legoland's long-term interests. I have also laid out how the rest of the game could be played from that point and GS seems entirely open to this possibility, should we be able to sign a treaty to its effect. I believe it possible to sign such a treaty and to ensure that it is honored.

So I would greatly appreciate it if I was able to discuss these matters with Legoland this evening in chat. I would also be highly appreciative if Legoland, when they do receive the save, HOLD the save until your consultative decision-making body is able to come to a decision on matters and thus still have time to act on such a decision, should you decide how I might hope.

Thank You.

- Prince Regent Francisco Clemente, Duque de Madrid, Chief Ambassador of the Spanish Crown

[ZargonX]

Oh, I guess you go it too Points of interest:

-They know we have gunpowder (which we expected)
-They know they are doomed
-Does GS know we have troops on Bob? Aeson mentioned it in his post, but I couldn't tell if he was speaking hypotetically or not. You'd think they would have contacted us if they actually knew...

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Oh, I guess you go it too Points of interest:

-They know they are doomed

IIRC, he says nothing about GS evacuating the to former Voxland. But certainly doomed on Bob, yes.

Originally posted by ZargonX
-Does GS know we have troops on Bob? Aeson mentioned it in his post, but I couldn't tell if he was speaking hypotetically or not. You'd think they would have contacted us if they actually knew...

Considering Aeson is not on GS anymore, he must be speaking hypothetically.