Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Kloreep]

I would just give them Astro for free. We're going to be getting at least two luxes post-astronomy anyway, possibly more if ND sweeps through RP, and as you say, we'll probably lose the lux quickly. However, I don't have a strong opinion on the lux/no lux; either way is fine with me.

The only downside I can see is that this potentially means Nav sooner if GS researches Nav next, but the chances of that are slim, I'd say. So let's give Astro. But let's check with GoW and ND first, explaining the situation and our reasoning, so that they neither hear about it after the fact or from someone else.

[Tiberius]

We were going to give Astro to GS anyway, so giving it to RP doesn't mess up with things, I believe, plus it'd mislead them for a while. I wouldn't bother with the luxuries. They will most probably lose it anyway.

I wouldn't give them gold, blaming some upgrades.

As for the info they ask for, how about telling ND+GoW to prepare some fake data We then would just hand over this data to RP, doing exactly what they are asking from us

[redstar1]

I've no problem with giving AStro free and giving them realistic but misleading information. The element of surprise is the most valuable resource we can hope for....

[Sharpe]

I would still ask for the luxury- telling them that it would help in increasing our population - i.e. more population = more production = more military and other resources

It is not as though they can trade them to anyone other than us, GS and Vox is there?

However, the pattern would have to go - giving Astronomy first , then one turn later them giving us the luxury (or trading 1 gold for Astronomy and 1 gold for the luxury). Besides, if we are lucky, RP will do their usual pattern and demand more for the luxury, thus giving us even more of a "cassi belli" against them

Since this RP "alliance" is supposed to be mutually beneficial, they might get suspicious if we give Astronomy for free as well.

Once we give Astronomy to both GS and RP, we can freely trade it with GoW and ND without them knowing. and if they do find out , we can say that they agreed to the same terms as RP - Astronomy for their luxuries

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
I would still ask for the luxury- telling them that it would help in increasing our population - i.e. more population = more production = more military and other resources

It is not as though they can trade them to anyone other than us, GS and Vox is there?

I, too, would ask for a luxury in exchange - they would be giving something that has virtually no value for them, while getting something of (seemingly) great value... we might reluctantly agree to take the risk of losing the luxury, if they lose it, too...

Originally posted by Sharpe
However, the pattern would have to go - giving Astronomy first , then one turn later them giving us the luxury (or trading 1 gold for Astronomy and 1 gold for the luxury).

Well, we could do the trade as two separate gifts, of course. Or we could trade in the old-fashioned way - I fail to see any difference...?

Originally posted by Sharpe
Besides, if we are lucky, RP will do their usual pattern and demand more for the luxury, thus giving us even more of a "cassi belli" against them

Steve, you STILL need more?

Originally posted by Sharpe
Once we give Astronomy to both GS and RP, we can freely trade it with GoW and ND without them knowing. and if they do find out , we can say that they agreed to the same terms as RP - Astronomy for their luxuries

Are we sure they cannot find out? I believe that if they went to the trading screen and threw a peace treaty in, they would be able to see if Astronomy could possibly be a bargaining chip or not...?

[Sharpe]

Steve, you STILL need more?

I like holding GIANT grudges....

True re GS and RP negotiations with GoW and ND I had forgotten about that. I was thinking about the Science Advisor's screen that they wouldn't be able to see that the number of turns to get Astronomy had been reduced.

[vondrack]

A message from BigFree:

I'm ashamed of the way the PTWDG Forum has gone on lately. People need to back up and realize that it is only a game and not to make personal attacks. Too many people are trying to justify their reasons for doing this or that when in fact, no one but those who choose to listen will believe any of it. Oh well.

I'm writting now to inquire about possibly getting Horses and/or Dyes from Lego. As you can see things are not going very well against ND and GoW. Even with GS's help, we are surely lacking.

We fear that ND and GoW will soon have all of Bob to theirselves. Horse's, and thus Knights, might be able to hold them off. We just want a stalemate at this point; but are likely looking at extinction without help from Lego. RP and Lego made a before game Pact to help each other out and to be "most favored nations" between us. RP now meakly asks for Lego to assist us. If you could spare one of your Horse's or even get one from Vox (We have no trade routes to them); we might be able to hold off ND and GoW from taking any more cities from us.

If we could just get to Navigation as well....we could have our own GA and help ourselves against these two foes.

If this needs to be seen by your team, you have permission to post this in your own private forum.

Thanks for your time.

BigFree
Representative of Role Play

I have to think this over...

[lmtoops]

This is a tough one to respond to.
- RP is not the enemy...but we hate them
- We are not at war with RP...but our allies are.
- Whatever we give to RP benefits GS...which is bad for us.

So the answer must be no, but how do we word it?

Or maybe we can give something that is of little real value. RP would see through it, but it would marginally comply with the "favored nation" definition.

On second thought, we should just say no. I see no need jump on a sinking ship. The "favored nation" treaty should not be considered to be endless. It was signed many, many turns ago. If we gave them horses, would that provide RP a path to victory? No, the outcome of the war is obvious, RP will be eliminated.

I'm not good a dipo double spead, but I would get to the point. The "most favored nation treaty" has expired. Any support we provide would not change the outcome of the war. If RP wishes to survive, I suggest they make peace.

[vondrack]

Well, then... we should think of something that will seemingly help RPers without actually doing harm to us and our allies (of course, we would have to consult with them!). Posing as "reluctantly helpful" would improve our cover, which seems to be still working (I can't imagine RPers would know about our involvement and still bothered to contact us asking for help) and which is VERY important.

I have already PMed BigFree with a personal PM (stressed it was not official and everything would be subject to the team discussion and consensus). Besides other things I told him:

1) we might be able to provide them with dyes until Voxes set up their first harbour (pretending we promised our last dyes to them)

This is actually a mean trick... if you read the log I did not post (only attached to the brief summary) in the Operation Glorious Plastic thread, from the Thursday chat, you'll find out that ND/GoW plan to take Barcelona very soon. Which, however... cuts the trade route, right? We will be "unable to do anything about it"...

2) we might consider giving them Astronomy

We discussed this before... if we included an eternal no-trade clause (I told BigFree that would be a must), we would keep Astronomy from GS, while making sure that RPers spend their precious gold on the research of Navigation and not on upgrades or rushes. We very well know they will never be able to make any real use of it - but they will see it as a chance. Small, but still worth giving a shot (BigFree already responded, also with a personal PM, saying they would consider Astronomy a truly important contribution).

3) that we regard the whole "most favoured nation" as crap

...and explained why. He responded with saying he more or less understood - and telling me Togas was almost "killed" (roleplay stuff) in a coup. The RP team seems to be aware of that their diplomacy (which was largely dictated by their leader) and trading strategy backfired at them big time, effectively ensuring their demise.

4) we have only one horses connected and plan to connect the other ones to a single city only, planning to do a horse/knight pump

...which is even partially true. Besides, what applies to the dyes idea, applies to horses, too (no Barcelona, no trade route). To make it clear: NO WAY we would ever provide them with horses.

To sum it up:

I would seriously consider giving them something seemingly valuable (I'd especially consider giving them Astronomy) that will do no or little harm to our alliance. Keeping our cover seems much more important to me than a marginal help we would be giving them.

I do not really fear we would lose this war in the long run. But alerting or even just hinting RP/GS about we are siding with their enemies too early might in fact prolong the war and make our losses much higher... SURPRISE will be the key to our success.

And last but not least: I would, of course, consult any kind of our "help" to RP with our allies.

[ZargonX]

- RP is not the enemy...but we hate them

You know, that is probably the best summary of the situation I have ever read

[ZargonX]

I would be against giving them astronomy. Sure, it may cause them to waste some gold, but it also means they could very easily give it to GS. We already got a lucky break in getting out of the earlier astro deal, so why create a new method to get it to them when we don't want them to have it? If GS is to get better ships, I say make them do all the work themselves.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by ZargonX
I would be against giving them astronomy. Sure, it may cause them to waste some gold, but it also means they could very easily give it to GS. We already got a lucky break in getting out of the earlier astro deal, so why create a new method to get it to them when we don't want them to have it? If GS is to get better ships, I say make them do all the work themselves.

Agreed. If I were RP, I would consider all clauses with us void after finding out what side we're on; and we can't count on RP being eliminated by the time we come out in the open, especially since GS could give them a safehaven on Stormia. (Maybe there was just something in nye's eye, but perhaps not. )

I would give them dyes (assuming ND & GoW agree), but nothing else comes to mind as givable.

[lmtoops]

I am completely against giving them astronomy for all the reasons stated, above. RP is in no position to deny astronomy from their only ally. We might as well gift astro. to GS.

Obviously, dyes would be fine.

[Sharpe]

I am also against giving RP astronomy - as it would surely end up in GS's hands eventually.

I don't mind giving them dyes - especially as it won't be our fault if their harbor city is captured

Good and mostly accurate description of our horses situation - they will have to do without...

[vondrack]

OK, I kinda agree with that it would be difficult to keep Astronomy from GS - after all, RPers are their ***** now and can't afford to say 'no' if "nicely" asked... especially after they find out we joined the "other" side. I did not really think of this when suggesting the gift.

Even if I think that GS researching Navigation instead of anything leading to gunpowder and later cavalry would be fine, I am not going to push this - as I do not even feel strongly about it.

I will contact Aggie and Darekill regarding the dyes. And I will think of a way how to tell RPers what we need to tell them...