Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

OK, here is a draft of what I believe we should send to RPers:

Dear BigFree,

I am writing this message not as an official communiqué from Legoland, but more as a personal letter - even if it does contain an official message from Legoland. It is just that a 'roleplaying' PM would be one of those that come out as an almost blank sheet of paper once run through a truthometer...

I mentioned some possibilities of how Legoland could help Spain - but made it clear that the team would have to approve them. Well... we have had a big discussion in our forum. I will try to explain our main concern - and the main reason of our help being very limited, if any at all.

Our emotions and past grudges with Spain aside, we have a major problem with this war. And consequently, with helping Spain. This war can potentially (but quite likely) lead to GS becoming THE world power, unrivalled by anyone else. If GS conquers a fair share of Bob, they will become too much of a threat even to us - and we made it clear to them we would join the war against them if that (GS grabbing too much of Bob) was going to happen. We are closely watching the events on Bob with a lot of worries.

Now, even though Spain is still standing and fighting, we do not believe you would be in a position to say 'no' if your saviour ally asked for this or that. It may well be a question of your very survival, so you would naturally have to comply - and we could not hold it against you. Alas, this is where the issue of gifting you Astronomy becomes a problem for us.

We were quite happy to have our previous tech deal with GS, involving Astronomy from our side and Banking from GS, cancelled at their request - simply because of security reasons. With GS getting heavily involved on Bob, we cannot rule out us being forced into the other camp, even if to a limited extent only, if things 'go wrong' (wrong from our PoV, of course).

Our western coast is safe, protected by the ocean, until GS (or anyone else) acquires Navigation. Which helps us big time - Lego military is not stellar ATM and being able to settle the rest of our continent without the need for extra protection measures is indeed welcome.

And if it ever came to the point we would feel forced to enter the war against GS (deliberately using "against GS" here, rather than "on GoW/ND side", because that's how we'd understand it), we would be very concerned about GS getting Astronomy and Navigation from you, because from that moment on, they would be directly threatening our exposed western coast.

Additionally, we fear it would take you a long time to research Navigation anyway, making the value of the gift somewhat arguable, as it's real benefit would be uncertain and difficult to reap, while it's potential downside would be present from turn 1.

So - to make the long story short. It's the involvement of GS that makes us hold back on gifting you Astronomy. Unfortunately, in our eyes, by helping you this way, we would help (at least potentially) GS, who are ATM the obvious candidate for winning the game.

There is a poll about providing you with our dyes open which should close in less than 48 hours. If the notion passes (currently not 100% obvious, even if there are no 'strategic' reasons to be considered here), we will send you dyes as accepted on our next or next but one turn.

Best regards,
vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

Be so kind, read through the letter carefully and give me your feelings, please. Can we send this to them? Does this improve or spoil our cover?

[redstar1]

Hmmm, personally I think it says a little too much... They may certainly have ideas that this is the position we are taking but I don't think we need to come out and say it! I'd send something like this:

BigFree,

As you are aware, the members of Legoland were discussing at length how best to help you, especially regarding trading Astronomy. Some concerns were voiced about this deal and as a consequence the team has decided that we can't trade Astronomy to you at this time. The concerns were in the main regarding our own national security which is of paramount importance to us.

*add in something about dyes.... *

V


I think something shorter and a bit more vague like this might be the best way forward. I don't think we should mention GS because RP seem to go out of their way to play down or even ignore the assistance they get when talking to us.

Also at the minute we aren't 100% sure that GS can't reach us from the west... they might have found a string of islands for all we know...

Anyways, just my 2 pence!

[Tiberius]

I also think that it is too long/detailed. We could add something about our concerns regarding GS's involvement and our security, but overall the message should be much-much shorter. They won't care too much about our reasons anyway. All what they will see from the message is "they don't want to help us", I'm quite sure, with or without good and detailed reasons.

Besides the message focuses too much on GS and contains too much info they would be happy to see if RP decides to show them the message.

We could say that Astro has a strategic importance for us because gives us an advantage against seaborn invasions. See, I didn't even mention GS

[ZargonX]

Agreed. The message says too much. Something along the lines of what Tibi suggests, saying that Astro is too strategic for us to give away, but luxuries we can deal with. Definately limit talk of GS, especially of us being "forced to join the other camp." GS will know where we stand soon enough, no need to get them riled up ahead of time. I don't think we need to justify ourselves too much to RP, so just a bare-bones letter would be more apt.

[vondrack]

I do not disagree with shortening the message and rewording it some... however, the first draft does not contain anything we would not have told GS already (and I did assume RPers would show the message to GS) - we made it clear to GS we would join the other camp weeks ago, in a chat with DeepO (held after they accepted New Madrid).

[vondrack]

Version 2.0 of the draft:

Dear BigFree,

We have had a big discussion in our forum regarding how to help Spain. While we are aware of your needs and fully acknowledge them, there has been a number of concerns raised, mostly regarding our own security. At the moment, we're the only civ with Astronomy - and that helps us with our defenses big time, by making it easier to focus only on those parts of our long coastline that can (theoretically) get under attack prior to Astronomy/Navigation.

We understand Spain is still standing and fighting, but we believe your power is somewhat less than sufficient to allow turning down requests for valuables you might have - and Astronomy would be such a valuable... Additionally, we do fear it would take you a long time to research Navigation (which we understand is the real focus here) anyway, making the value of the gift quite arguable, as it's benefit would be uncertain and quite difficult to reap, while it's potential downside (another team acquiring it by whatever force it would be able to exert upon you) would be present from turn 1.

There is a poll about providing you with our dyes open which should close in less than 48 hours. If the notion passes (which currently seems likely), we will send you dyes as accepted on our next or next but one turn.

Best regards,
vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

BTW, Aggie (GoW) has already approved the idea of gifting RPers dyes. I am still waiting for Darekill's (ND) opinion. If we have his approval, too, I will reword the last paragraph appropriately.

[Tiberius]

Much better.

[ZargonX]

Yes, that looks good

[lmtoops]

Much better

[Kloreep]

[vondrack]

PMed BigFree with the following message:

Dear BigFree,

We have had a big discussion in our forum regarding how to help Spain. While we are aware of your needs and fully acknowledge them, there has been a number of concerns raised, mostly regarding our own security. At the moment, we're the only civ with Astronomy - and that helps us with our defenses big time, by making it easier to focus only on those parts of our long coastline that can (theoretically) get under attack prior to Astronomy/Navigation.

We understand Spain is still standing and fighting, but we believe your power is somewhat less than sufficient to allow turning down requests for valuables you might have - and Astronomy would be such a valuable... Additionally, we fear it would take you a long time to research Navigation (which we understand is the real focus here) anyway, making the value of the gift quite arguable, as it's benefit would be uncertain and quite difficult to reap, while it's potential downside (another team acquiring it by whatever force it would be able to exert upon you) would be present from turn 1.

We will send you our only luxury, dyes, as accepted on this turn. We have promised these to Vox Controli, but until they finish the first harbour, creating a trade link between us and them (maybe even a bit longer), we will be providing them to you instead.

Best regards,
vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

[Kloreep]

In private chat about 10 mins ago.

Arnelos> is ZargonX ever going to come back online so I can talk to him about us potentially helping Lego in the future?
Kloreep> Dunno.
Arnelos> afterall, our agreement with GS is to bail our asses out of this war in return for some land on Bob... that does not mean we are permanently forced to help them win the game
Kloreep> He's been busy recently, GF's back was hurt...
Arnelos> but if we can't get ANY form of talk with Legoland about future cooperation, we'll probably have little choice but to resort to GS as a long-term partner
Kloreep> I'll pass this on to our forum.
Arnelos> thanks

[Sharpe]

It won't hurt to talk I suppose... our main danger is that RP tries to turn GS against us. So I would make chatting with GS a priority too (besides our lux trade with them is nearing its end soon).

[ZargonX]

Ok, found Arnleos finally

Arnelos> hello
ZargonX> hey Arn!
ZargonX> heard you were looking for me
Arnelos> indeed
ZargonX> sorry, I know I have been scarce as of late
Arnelos> it's ok
Arnelos> I just need SOMEONE from Legoland
Arnelos> because we really need to talk about this long-term stuff
ZargonX> yes, indeed
Arnelos> the situation is quite simple...
Arnelos> We would be willing to be a trade partner and aid those looking toward winning the game... we would PREFER that the one(s) we did that with were looking for a stable playing out of the rest of the game
Arnelos> in which RP remains alive and in possession of its home territory
ZargonX> of course
ZargonX> do you fear GS will try to exert more influence on Bob at the conclusion of the war?
Arnelos> Obviously, for now, this clearly leaves GoW and ND out of the equation until such point that they might agree to such
ZargonX>
Arnelos> my concern is more that I'd like to prevent a major conflict after this one
Arnelos> this one has nearly swallowed us already and if not for GS' intervention, it would have
ZargonX> well, as we have stated quite plainly before: Lego has no interest in settling Bob
Arnelos> GS may attempt to do something along the lines of what you are suggesting, but we figure that they're likely to be more kind to us than most because we do not represent a long-term threat to them
ZargonX> so, in that aspect, we are more than willing to discuss situations that would lead to stability
Arnelos> our agreement with GS covers mostly that GS does not want to see Neu Demogyptica win the game (neither do we) and while we're paying them some territory for their assistance, their main reason for being involved is to prevent an ND victory
ZargonX> so what is RP's vision for the post-war world?
Arnelos> GS also stated that while we should gift them cities for their own defense, they promised to gift those cities back... so far they've kept their word on that...
Arnelos> that said, they'll obviously be keeping a piece of land to the north of us... their main concern is that their home continent is too small to compete
Arnelos> Our vision for the long-term is that those who are seeking to win the game by force of arms be put back in their cages (read GoW and ND) and that the game rather be decided by race to culture/diplo/space victory. This would be done primarily through something of a system of collective security
Arnelos> In other words, RP would agree to trade and be friendly with Lego as well as GS (as opposed to GS monopolizing our attention, as we believe they want)
Arnelos> Additionally, if any power were to attack another with intent to swallow it whole and gain a further advantage over the rest of the world, we could help others to prevent this
ZargonX> so a sort of tri-balance of world power
Arnelos> something like that
ZargonX> each keeping the other in check
Arnelos> and allow the best builders to win the game
ZargonX> it is an optimal vision
Arnelos> yes... it would be difficult
Arnelos> thankfully, we have seperate continents, this makes it easier
Arnelos> especially when RR's hit the scene
Arnelos> Legoland would obviously keep its own enormous continent, which you could EASILY defend through RR's
Arnelos> your main concern, we understand would be whether any power gained too much power on Bob
Arnelos> which is a multi-power continent
ZargonX> well, obviously the idea of a 1-power Bob would be quite worrisome
Arnelos> indeed
ZargonX> or even a 2-power, with one holding the majority
ZargonX> I would imagine that would worry GS as well
Arnelos> this is why GS is in this war
Arnelos> of course, GS also desires to win the game... they believe that cannot be done with their home continent alone... so they desire a piece of Bob
Arnelos> We have succeeded thusfar in suggesting that it should be a small piece
Arnelos> We figure that the optimal situation is one in which all remaining world powers are either committed to long-term stability or are too weak to damage it
ZargonX> and you do not worry that they would try to conquer you if they had the military advantage after this war?
Arnelos> actually, no.... we honestly believe that GS takes their "honor code" so completely seriously that they are unlikely to do, both because it is not in their nature and, more importantly, because they'd never live it down
ZargonX>
ZargonX> Guess that's a good a reason as any
ZargonX> well, the situation you describe is one that I think the people of Lego would be agreeable to
ZargonX> however, getting to the point at which it can be implemented is the tough part
Arnelos> We have also been willing to discuss the matter with Vox Controli of them receiving a piece of Bob as well
Arnelos> Vox is small and weak... not a threat and unlikely to become one. Even if GoW or ND (one of them) were to get wiped out, their presence could potentially be replaced in part by Vox... dividing the land and preventing anyone from getting too much
ZargonX> ahh... a 2-continent Vox... their dream come true
Arnelos> (chuckle)
ZargonX> well, as I said, it does sound an optimal solution
ZargonX> in the meantime, I am more than happy to take your ideas to my people
Arnelos> now, for such a vision to be realized... first, RP needs to survive the immediate conflict and the ND/GoW alliance must be re-contained to prevent both their victory AND to prevent them from making the rest of the game a long warfest
Arnelos> the larger problem is obviously going to be whether ND and/or GoW is willing to live long-term under such circumstances
Arnelos> this is the main reason we'd want Vox to enter the continent... to take the place of one of them if such an arrangement cannot be worked out
Arnelos> because we'd rather that GS didn't get too much of the land
ZargonX> yes, I don't know if either of them would be too happy watching others build their way to vicotry around them
Arnelos> this is the problem
Arnelos> GoW, for one, is committed to fighting wars
Arnelos> they will be a perpetual security risk
Arnelos> so we're probably going to need Vox
Arnelos> GS can have *some* of Bob, but we'd prefer not much of it
Arnelos> as for us... our state is so incredibly weakened by this war that even if we gain territory back and have time to settle/re-settle it, we are like Vox... too far behind in the building game to conceivably WIN a builder victory
ZargonX> I think we've all been amazed by what GS can do with only a little space...
ZargonX> so I think even a small chunk would be sufficient for them
Arnelos> indeed
Arnelos> any chunk they claim is likely to be corrupt as hell unless they get a GL to build their FP on it, anyways
ZargonX> so, I guess the real question is: do you truly feel the war will end in your and GS' favor?
Arnelos> the liklihood of us at least SURVIVING this initial war has been increasing
ZargonX> you believe it will end with some sort of detante?
Arnelos> it's possible
Arnelos> the problem is going to be GoW and ND's willingness to do that
Arnelos> it's also going to be GS' desire for at least a piece of land
Arnelos> We think it can be done if we can win, just enough, that we can't defeat ND and GoW, they can't defeat us, and the piece of land (mostly empty) to the very east can be claimed by GS
ZargonX> a stalemate, as it were
Arnelos> problem then is that the situation is not long-term tenable... the war will restart as soon as either side has an advantage again
Arnelos> something like that
Arnelos> at the very least, we get our land back
Arnelos> and GoW and ND are re-contained
ZargonX> and negotiations can begin
Arnelos> that's a hope... but I'm not counting on it
Arnelos> afterall... GoW is going to be a PERPETUAL nuisance
Arnelos> especially if they feel caged and unable to win
Arnelos> the liklihood that they'll just go berserk for the lack of better options will go up
ZargonX> quite probably
Arnelos> which means they may need to be wiped out, in such a situation... we would prefer for Vox to get most of their land
Arnelos> in order to maintain global balance
ZargonX> and you've spoken to Vox of this already?
Arnelos> now...
Arnelos> not on the latest
Arnelos> Beta and I *have* spoken before about the possibility, but some time ago
Arnelos> besides... Beta is unlikely to talk seriously about it until our victory over GoW seems more likely
ZargonX> true
Arnelos> though we have approached the subject
Arnelos> My main concern is whether Legoland can first live with such an arrangement... so that we prevent a conflict with you.
Arnelos> and whether, if it looks like we might be headed for such a thing (which is our goal), we might, at the very least, be able to expect that you will not work against it
ZargonX> as I said, the situation you've described would seem amenable to me
Arnelos> My main goal is to seek something that I believe is tenable for ALL remaining world powers. Anything short of that will mean another war.
ZargonX> we are builders, after all
Arnelos> Legoland's interest seems to be primarily preventing a complete GS victory or a complete ND/GoW victory... as either might then turn on Legoland (and likely would)
ZargonX> both are concerns, of course
ZargonX> it would be foolish not to worry about such things
Arnelos> this is why we believe Bob divided between RP, Vox, and a small piece to GS (along with perhaps even ND and/or GoW) would be likable to Legoland
ZargonX> it would definately have benefits
Arnelos> it sure beats the alternatives
ZargonX> for the moment, I can take these thoughts to my countrymen for debate
Arnelos> the problem is that while I think both RP and GS are open to this, it is currently unlikely that ND or GoW is
Arnelos> they're still playing for keeps...
Arnelos> that would be good
ZargonX> if such a goal is agreed on, we can work towards it
Arnelos> that would be good
ZargonX> in whatever way is possible
ZargonX> We should meet again in the near future after I've spoken with the others
ZargonX> and once the war has a more definitive course in sight
Arnelos> yes
Arnelos> the war is currently very much in flux
Arnelos> we are gaining ground, but it is still an uncertain thing
ZargonX> always is, isn't it
ZargonX> ?
Arnelos> that's how war works
ZargonX> we'll just have to make the ISDG war a little more definitive
Arnelos> ideally, yes
ZargonX> excellent
Arnelos> alright, I think we're done for now

[ZargonX]

It's an interesting vision they have, but one that ultimately assumes that any team would be willing to just sit back and let another team win. Furthermore, it also pre-supposes that they will survive this war. I am a little curious as to what gives them such a positive outlook on how this war will go for them; perhaps GS is sending in the heavy forces?