Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Hmmm... this is perhaps RPers' idea of "close cooperation"...

Session Start: Wed Mar 12 08:17:51 2003
Session Ident: Togas
vondrack: Togas, any news on if RPers are likely to go for the deal we were speaking of?
vondrack: we'd appreciate knowing ASAP, to adjust our deals with other teams
Togas: We're hopeful that you'll decide to help us pay for contact, but the other tech deal is far off in the future, as we don't have any of those techs yet.
vondrack: the payment has already be approved
vondrack: you will get 20 gold this turn
Togas: good to hear
vondrack: no pre-arranged deals then?
vondrack: I mean - not a problem for us
Togas: The tech proposal was posted but we haven't discussed it at all since it seems to be 30+ turns or so in the future.
Togas: In the past, we've tended to tie up deals @5 turns before tech was available
vondrack: ok, just to make it clear... if we do not agree on it now, we may not be able to negotiate it later
Togas: we might make an exception in this case, we just need to keep each other in formed.
vondrack: because we may not go for the Republic
Togas: ... to be frank with you, we'd hoped that you didn't go republic
vondrack: several scenarios possible
vondrack: and they mostly depend on whether we make a deal with you or not
vondrack: just thought I would tell you, to keep the spirit we agreed upon last time
Togas: sounds like we should discuss it a bit more
vondrack: yes, do so, please
Togas: I'll be free tomorrow and have more time to talk then.
vondrack: k, bye for now
Togas: I'll also try to catch a few of my advisors in chat to see what our options are.
vondrack: k, thanks
Togas: Talk to you later today ... (tomorrow my time)
vondrack: k, g'night!
Togas:
Session Close: Wed Mar 12 08:23:37 2003

Unless they let us know before this turn of ours, I suggest we take a solution not relying upon any deals with RPers... if they later come back, fine. If not, never mind.

Just a side note... Togas really gets on my nerves. I just hate such dishonest and slippery people... he first says how happy he would be to make a deal with us and later states the proposal was not even discussed as it seemed to be too far in the future... and that RPers would hope for us not going after Republic... go figure...

I will continue my thoughts in the GS discussion thread.

[Sharpe]

Radek, I am starting to wonder whether your opinion may be affecting our situation with RP.

We have to maintain at least decent relations with RP due to their strength, proximity, and their ability to colonize our southern area.

I am becoming worried that our relations with RP are becoming damaged beyond repair - I mean mentioning "there can be only one to win" was a bit overboard and Togas seemed angry last time and may be considering other options than us now.

As I have said many times, we can't afford the possibility of a ND-RP alliance. We would be not only very vulnerable to that but also very likely a target of such an alliance.

It is reasonable to not negotiate a deal 20 to 30 turns down the road - a lot can happen between now and then and with the myriad of trade possibilities it may only become clear what is best when civs are approaching getting these techs.

When it comes to what we should research, our main priority should be what we need most, then what can we trade for/with. Right now we are starting to have major corruption problems and we need to get out of despotism while also finishing off the ancient age techs.

[redstar1]

Sharpe,

I don't think its an attitude problem on our behalf. From what Vondrack and nimitz in particular have picked up from dealing with Togas its seems that he is playing his own little diplomatic game of cat and mouse. I would hazard to guess that he is upset that Legoland has not become the lapdog of RP. I for one would prefer that we got on with playing the game to suit ourselves, and not to keep Togas and his ego happy

Togas wants to have a good relationship with us. in my view this means that we should both make the effort to arrange deals and this looks to all the world like Togas delaying discussions until we are ready to beg them for a deal. He says they had hoped we wouldn't research Republic...why? He doesn't suggest any deal... what he wants is for us to commit to researching something we can easily get elsewhere, then 15 turns down the line Togas can impose his own conditions on any deal because we get left with a tech that GS will have before us, and undoubtedly have already agreed to trade.

I appreciate the need to keep a good relationship with RP, as with all the teams but I don't see why it should involve us chasing RP to sign up to a deal when we can get conditions as good as, if not better than RP can offer.



Just my 5 pence...

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Radek, I am starting to wonder whether your opinion may be affecting our situation with RP.

We have to maintain at least decent relations with RP due to their strength, proximity, and their ability to colonize our southern area.

I am becoming worried that our relations with RP are becoming damaged beyond repair - I mean mentioning "there can be only one to win" was a bit overboard and Togas seemed angry last time and may be considering other options than us now.

Uhhh... Steve, you read the log. What the hell I was supposed to do? That guy jumped at me, being outright furious before I said my first word, throwing all kinds of bull**** at me (like Lego trading MM to GoW secretly, not telling RPers etc.). IMO, I was very mild to him.

I made it clear to him that we are going to help RPers and cooperate with them only as far as it's profitable to us, too. I mean, c'mon... Togas behaves as if our only goal was to help RPers! As if we were supposed to tell them anything and everything they wish to know. F**k them! Why the hell would we help them win this game, burying our own chances? If they want us to treat them fair, THEY have to start treating us fair. If they want us to be polite and open with them, THEY have to be polite and open with us.

Originally posted by Sharpe
As I have said many times, we can't afford the possibility of a ND-RP alliance. We would be not only very vulnerable to that but also very likely a target of such an alliance.

We CAN afford it if we are able to secure allies enough. Allying with Estonians against Bobians, e.g., would be an option. The possibility of ND allying with RPers against us is quite low at the moment... and even if they did ally, the costs of transporting units enough to our mainland would be so horrible that they would sooner or later drain themselves to death (keep in mind that GS & Voxes are VERY close to them and feeling a bit restrained on their continent...).

Originally posted by Sharpe
It is reasonable to not negotiate a deal 20 to 30 turns down the road - a lot can happen between now and then and with the myriad of trade possibilities it may only become clear what is best when civs are approaching getting these techs.

A deal 20 turns into the future (that is how long it would take to get The Republic) is (or shall be) completely ok. I mean... how the hell we are supposed to "coordinate" our research when they are not responding to our offer, providing us with virtually zero input we need to set our research goal? We would be able to guarantee The Republic. They would be able to guarantee Polytheism and probably Currency (that would be the only thing they would have to make sure they can get, from ND - and btw, they would be able to research it on their own, if necessary). So, where are those "myriads" of trade possibilities? I thought that making deals was about picking certain ones out of those myriads.

Sure, they may be able to get it cheaper or a bit earlier from someone else... but IMO that's not the cooperation they are talking about all the time. If they give us no guarantees, we give them none either. If they want to trade with us only if we give them the best offers, then we have no need to consider their needs and trade with them on exactly the same basis. All that would be relevant then would be OUR OWN PROFIT. If they wish to go this way, fair enough. But God forbid Togas then to try his "we are frustrated by your approach" crap on me ever again.

Originally posted by Sharpe
When it comes to what we should research, our main priority should be what we need most, then what can we trade for/with. Right now we are starting to have major corruption problems and we need to get out of despotism while also finishing off the ancient age techs.

That's 100% correct.

All I was trying to do was to arrange a deal that would make it guaranteed for both teams that they get all the mandatory ancient techs + The Republic and get out of the ancient times ASAP. If they are not willing to take this deal, then they are considering the possibility of letting us lag behind them, possibly trading for the techs on their own, trying to be medieval faster than us.

That would be perfectly okay with me, if they were not declaring how special and unique we are to them.

And last but not least... I will be more than happy letting someone else deal with Togas. The problem is that he seems to be sort of uneasy or belittled dealing with just an ambassador that has authorization limits regarding what he can negotiate and what he cannot.

Sorry to sound a bit harsh maybe, but I really believe that the problem is not with me.

[redstar1]

I think our relationships with teams is one thing we need to have a good discussion about..

as for RP and Togas in particular I'd be interested in hearing what Nimitz has to say. He has had the pleasure of dealing with Togas pretty much from the start of the game and he is in prime position to comment on Togas.

As it stands we have a good trading relationship (or potentially) with GS and GOW, not withstanding the fact that GOW reneged on a deal with GS, thats something we have to consider.

We don't even have contact with GS yet as GOW have put a very high price on our heads so to speak. When we gain contact with ND and Vox we will be able to negociate with them. I would imagine ND would be keen to conduct a good trading relationship while Vox would be keen for us not to have a good relationship with ND. We can use this to our advantage.

In the meantime lets not get ourselves held to ransom by the only 2 teams who have our contact. Its not a life or death situation, yet

[vondrack]

Hmmm... another message from our roleplaying brothers...

Session Start: Fri Mar 14 07:45:34 2003
Session Ident: Togas
Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@adsl-63-202-55-189.dsl.frsn01.pacbell.net)
Togas: I can't chat, but I'd like to tomorrow (my time) if we both get a chance.
Togas: I'm about to go to sleep
Togas: Just wanted to ask to see you guys decided to help subsidize our contact. We just received contact with your team this turn, so we can now officially chat
Togas: Also, we discussed the trade offer you made and several of my teammates brought me back to reality
Togas: the Roleplay implications of Republic are scary. I'd have to give up power and allow a Senate to run Spain.
Togas: I'd much rather go Monarchy and keep my current position and my head. Those Revolutions are scary when you're a Roleplay team.
Togas: I think Republic for Currency + Poly is a FAIR trade, but I don't think we'll want to do it due to the RP considerations ... I don't want my country to be run in such a fasion.
Togas: I hope that your nation will consider a different research path, but I understand if you still want Republic.
Togas: talk to you soon

Go figure...

Ya know, I love it when someone claiming to consider us "special" says that something is a FAIR deal, but has no interest in pursuing it.

IOW, RPers say: yes, Republic for Curr+Poly would be fair as far as the price is concerned, but we would get something we do not need or plan to use soon, so we would rather not have you get what you need.

Sweet. I suggest we no longer consider RPers' needs and go strictly for our own needs. If we can make a trade with them along the way, good. If not, I do not care. They don't care for us either.

Let's give them 20 gold and treat them as any other team.

[redstar1]

Wonderful. Our most trusted allie can't help us cos he will get voted out

I didn't realise RP were taking things so seriously.... Perhaps we should roleplay back and contact someone within RP with the intention of assisting a revolution?

muhahahaha

[ZargonX]

Isn't this what I warned about a long time ago? I always said they could role-play their way out of any arrangements, as well as eventually role-play their way into stabbing us in the back. I would not view our relationship with them as a high priority, as we are more than capable of making new friends in this world. It's not as if we've really gotten much out of the relationship yet, anyway.

[redstar1]

I agree, the early promise of a brotherly relationship has certainly disappeared. Treating them no more special than anyone else is the way forward here. In fact I am leaning more towards thinking of GOW as our closest allie at the moment.

[lmtoops]

I think the RPer are full of sh*t. They just use their "rp style" to justify whatever they want (as Zargon pointed out). I'm sure their true motives are otherwise, but they'll hide behind the rp excuse.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by redstar1
I agree, the early promise of a brotherly relationship has certainly disappeared. Treating them no more special than anyone else is the way forward here. In fact I am leaning more towards thinking of GOW as our closest allie at the moment.

Exactly my thoughts. GoW have been easy and quick to deal with so far... and reliable, as far as standing in the word given to us is concerned.

I will be much happier to deal with "bloodthirsty warmongers" that actually strike deals beneficial for both sides than with "brothers" that just keep talking about being the greatest allies ever and in fact just slow us down only by confusing us regarding their true intentions...

[Kloreep]

Well, we tried. I agree we should give up on a close alliance with the RPers; using RP as an excuse is pretty lame.

Though, to play devil's advocate... we weren't planning on buying the RPer's pet project Monarchy, were we?

[Sharpe]

I agree, it does certainly appear that RP is no longer trustworthy anymore. You can't get more evasive than Togas was in that last conversation. (I mean role-playing tactics can only go so far...). My apologies for doubting you on this Radek.

I do find it curious that RP talked about how we were both similar in our peaceful thinking - and yet they now aren't interested in Republic and are going for Monarchy? Very odd, or they were never honest about their intentions in the first place.

I think that we should now be doubly on our guard for any RP landing in the south (especially settlers)and their choice of monarchy may indicate a more militaristic stance perhaps even towards us...

Given GS's openness and willingness to trade, I am tempted to suggest that we propose a trading and mutual defense pact soon with them. If they accept we should then propose expanding the "coalition" to perhaps include GoW and if GS is willing - Vox. Even GoW, GS and us would prove a very effective counterweight to any possible ND-RP alliance.

That being said - I am not completely counting out ND - if they show the same friendly attitude that GS has shown, I would grab at a ND-GS-us coalition in a heartbeat (GoW could be included too if we could persuade ND that RP is much more of a threat to them).

For now I would favour GoW and GS as likely reliable trading partners - perhaps even preferential trading partners and to work with them on a common tech strategy.

[Tiberius]

I agree with all what you've said, Sharpe.

The first things we should try perhaps is to establish with the GS a tech supremacy, trying to be a few turns ahead of other civs, grabbing the best techs for ourselves. Thus we could make good deals within our "tech sphere of influence", the GoW and RP, while already working on our next projects .

GS would the best partner on the long run, because their goal for the near future is the same ours: keeping the Bob civs in balance. We will have to pick an ally from Bob, too, and that should be a reliable, trustworthy, but not the most powerful civ. Certainly the GoW seems the best candidate for now, but things can change in the future, so let us keep good relation with everybody, trading as much as possible while observing the others and watching our borders. We will know more in 10 or 20 turns, but the alliance with the GS should be set up until then (I'm not mentioning the Voxes, because I think we should leave them in GSs sphere of influence; unless GS themselves become too powerful, that is).

[Tiberius]

It'd be about time to make a proposal to the RPs for Currency. It is not in our best interest to further deteriorate our relations with them. Maybe we don't want them as allies anymore, but neither do we need an enemy.

We are selling Currency+Construction for 250 to the GoW. We have agreed to sell for less to the RPs, so how about 220? It is unlikely that they will have that much money, so why not? We don't need Monarchy and they declined our previous trade proposal, so we are in advantage now, meaning we don't have to accept a treaty with Monarchy included. We want the money. They have it, fine, we'll be rich. They don't have it, fine again, we made a proposal again and they will be the one to break a treaty, not us.

It's a win-win situation.