Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • After securing the no Sistine clause from GS, I tried to talk to BigFree, to secure even the very last team - RPers. But... kids... that was SOME fun!

    Session Start: Tue Jun 24 01:22:17 2003
    Session Ident: #Happy
    * Now talking in #Happy
    vondrack: yup, here
    BigFree: yeah
    BigFree: I love mIRC
    * Togas has joined #happy
    Togas: hello
    vondrack: hello, Togas!
    * BigFree sets mode: +oo Togas vondrack
    Togas: Vond, you oughta join Team Sunshine
    BigFree: we were talking about the Theology proposal Lego made to us
    Togas: which one?
    vondrack: nah... no more DGs for me, thank you
    vondrack: getting tired of them a bit... too much agenda for me
    BigFree: its not a busy game, just for fun, we would not give you a job.
    vondrack: all these late night chats
    Togas: it's a silly game anyhow. No stress
    BigFree: jus a forum to read when you felt like it.
    vondrack: see, I have this problem
    vondrack: I am getting easily TOO involved
    vondrack:
    Togas: Vond, perhaps you would like to join the FAM team and take BigFree's spot?
    BigFree: see, I can give you access, but you do not have to post
    vondrack: no, please - I know I am so lame in resisting temptations
    BigFree: LOL
    vondrack: anyway - Togas, I told BigFree that GoW & ND rose in power a lot
    vondrack: over the last 2-3 turns
    vondrack: noticed that while playing our last turn
    Togas: we're getting close to Chivalry. That's when things will get messy.
    vondrack: yes
    vondrack: we suspect GoW & ND acquired Chivalry
    vondrack: that would explain that steep increase in their power
    Togas: it's possible, but on the same turn?
    vondrack: strange, I agree - but see the graph for yourself
    vondrack: it kinda stroke me... and made me wonder what's going on
    vondrack: anyway, I may be seeing ghosts
    BigFree: They both have recently built cities too
    vondrack: right, could be it, too - frankly, GoW would be supposed to tell us they'd be getting close to Chivalry
    vondrack: and there was no word from them
    vondrack: who knows...
    BigFree: I'm looking at the lst 3 saves, and the cost for Chiv did not drop
    BigFree: so, it's unlikely they got it
    Togas: we've given them some leeway with their current revolution, but we'll grab MZ and get him to talk to us next chance we get
    BigFree: perhaps they both have built cities and both have upgraded some other units.
    vondrack: hm, then it may be their cities just expanded or something
    vondrack: mind you - all I saw was just the powergraph
    Togas: mind if we ask ... what's going to happen to Vox?
    vondrack: no word from anywhere regarding anything
    vondrack: Vox?
    Togas: I mean, GS keeps talking about resettlement like it's a done deal
    vondrack: most probably, they will go to exile
    vondrack: yes,
    Togas: where are they going?
    BigFree: "Serect Island"
    Togas: Fantasy Island?
    vondrack: I hope I am not breaching any secrecy clause here
    vondrack: they will go to Legos Minor
    Togas: Cool
    vondrack: that's part of our landmass
    vondrack: cool?
    vondrack: do you like the idea?
    BigFree: North?
    Togas: Cool of you guys to do that.
    vondrack: yes, the Northern part
    Togas: That north-western peninsula.
    BigFree: ok, sounds like you guys have some new life long friends
    vondrack: it's mostly mountains, no fresh water - I would not really want to start there
    vondrack: but they have little choice
    BigFree: LOL
    BigFree: Are you giving them a city there
    vondrack: we believe it's better to have Voxes alive than dead
    BigFree: or do they sail there
    vondrack: both, I believe
    BigFree: ah
    vondrack: I mean
    vondrack: city, sure
    vondrack: sail, most probably
    BigFree: right, they said they have Galleys to load
    vondrack: though GS is developing some sort of smart way to "hopping" them there in one big transfer
    vondrack: strange enough - GS seem to be genuinely keen on
    vondrack: getting rid of Voxes quietly
    Togas: wonder why?
    vondrack: they signed this peace treaty and now they are even offering "expertise"
    vondrack: helping Voxes to resettle
    vondrack: perhaps they realized their big PR problem
    vondrack: and try doing something about it
    BigFree: exatly
    Togas: We've been too helpful to them about it
    BigFree: they realized the nightmare they had
    vondrack: LoL
    vondrack: yes, too helpful
    vondrack: but then... it's supposed to be just a game, is it not?
    vondrack: it was getting to a situation it was no longer fun
    Togas: true, and I just got tired of having to suffer through their bad PR
    BigFree: not that opinons wil change over time, GS will still be seen as the "meanies"
    vondrack: yes
    vondrack: sigh
    BigFree: you can't changed a zebras stripes
    BigFree: without skinning him, that i!
    vondrack: I know I did go quite far last time, during that "Lego-GS cold war" )
    vondrack: but I got somehow turned up by how that public thread was developing
    Togas: The public thread really went south in a hurry.
    vondrack: yup
    BigFree: it really did, it was shameful
    vondrack: I even talked to some GS members in private
    BigFree: hehe
    vondrack: they really DID take that very personally
    vondrack: dunno why
    BigFree: they contacted me too, asking for advice to improve relations.
    vondrack: I perceived that as part of the game
    vondrack: this "public opinion" bull****... )
    vondrack: as if anyone cared...
    BigFree: lol
    BigFree: true
    BigFree: but it does say alot for how GS hard targets on theri asses when the game started nad got reinforced when they acted as the did in public threads
    vondrack: right
    BigFree: they id nothing to help themselves
    vondrack: they seem to be really deep into their "honour code"
    BigFree: HAHA
    BigFree: they are deeply into wining
    vondrack: not exactly sure what that is, as they did not tell anyone
    vondrack: I am not trying to ridicule that at this moment
    Togas: It's really a matter of egos and being "right." They are very consumed with being right and will argue the matter to death.
    vondrack: they may be honest
    vondrack: but they do it the wrong way
    vondrack: yes, agreed with you, Togas
    Togas: I need to head out. I'm at work now, closing things up, and need to go shopping for dinner.
    vondrack: k, see you!
    BigFree: lets talk about that Theology deal or other tech deals vond
    Togas: see you later
    vondrack: ah, Theo!
    BigFree: bye
    vondrack: forgot about it again
    BigFree: lol
    vondrack: bye, Togas!
    Togas: bye
    * Togas has left #happy
    vondrack: well - as I said, the no Sistine clause is unlikely to be lifted
    BigFree: we are researching it opurselves right now
    vondrack: we are short of luxuries and the Sistine's seems to be vital to us
    BigFree: for like the last 6-8 turns, I dont remeber exactly
    vondrack: hm... any prearranged deals?
    BigFree: no deals yet
    vondrack: ok, I will be honest
    BigFree: but we would consider letting you have the monoploy on it
    vondrack: you will get none - all others signed deals with us
    vondrack: you are the last ones
    vondrack: so - I guess it would really be better to come to some sort of a reasonable deal
    BigFree: everyone else already signed "do not build" agreements?
    vondrack: everyone else is getting Theo from us
    vondrack: that's all I can say, I believe
    BigFree: 12: 4) 1
    BigFree: well if other teams can build it, then why exclude RP?
    vondrack: it actually works both ways
    vondrack: you know it's better to focus on a different wonder
    vondrack: we know we can focus on this one
    vondrack: and frankly
    vondrack: with the number of luxuries you have access to
    vondrack: we thought that you would not be eager to invest 600 shilelds into something that needs 160-shield cathedrals to work
    vondrack: *shields
    vondrack: which we seem to have no choice but to go for
    vondrack: little choice
    vondrack: not no choice
    vondrack: all you actually need is marketplaces
    vondrack: I wish it was so easy for us
    vondrack: anyways - no intention to sound like I am whining here
    BigFree: true, we do have a few luxeries; but we are Religeous, so Cathedrals are cheaper for us. Sistine has been on the table for a long time now.
    vondrack: ah, forgot of that
    vondrack: religious, right
    BigFree: plus it helps our GA, If we need one
    BigFree: We could guarantee not to go for Bachs
    vondrack:
    vondrack: nice
    BigFree: or even promise a permanent lux deal
    vondrack: I am afraid that will probably not work... we are not really hard pressed for gold or anything, so trading Theo needs to bring some kind of a benefit to us
    vondrack: all we can think of ATM is the no-wonder clause
    BigFree: but you do need luxuries
    vondrack: everybody does
    BigFree: 12: 4) 1
    BigFree: so, would not a combined deal of luxeries and gold get Theology?
    vondrack: btw.. is Oracle not religious?
    BigFree: I mean the slider can used if you have excess gold
    BigFree: I would think that it is
    vondrack: I know it's a pretty lame wonder, but as far as the GA-trigger effect goes, it would be much cheaper to spend 200 shields on the Oracle than 600 shields on Sistine...
    BigFree: HAHA
    BigFree: yes, since it is defucnt with the advent of Theo
    vondrack: right - I pointed out I was talking about the GA-trigger effect only
    BigFree: sure
    BigFree: lets table Theoo for a bit
    BigFree: do you have any other techs to offer for sale?
    vondrack: sure, np
    vondrack: not ATM
    BigFree: are you sure
    vondrack: and you? probably not... since you are doing Theo yourselves
    vondrack: sure - re: techs?
    BigFree: yes
    vondrack: yes, sure
    vondrack: we do not have any other tech for sale
    vondrack: just a minute
    BigFree: I can think of Republic, unless it is not for sale.
    vondrack: I am just checking it
    vondrack: hmmm - seems Republic would be available for sale, yes
    vondrack: completely forgot about it
    vondrack: the NDA has been over for quite some time
    BigFree: well, we are "browsing" right now for tehs
    vondrack: so - sorry, yes, Republic would be available
    vondrack: BigFree!
    BigFree: what kind of sdiscount price does Lego have for its most favored nation trading Civ?
    BigFree: what
    vondrack: you do not think of getting two techs basically for free, do you?
    BigFree: hmm?
    vondrack: sorry - I was thinking you would like to get Rep+Theo for no-Sistine
    BigFree: 12; 4) 1
    vondrack: reading too much into it, I guess
    vondrack: or not?
    BigFree: lol, i can ask my team though
    BigFree: Rep+Theo for no-Sistine?? thats it?
    vondrack: if you "can" ask your team, I would "have" to ask mine
    BigFree: I might be able to get them to go Bachs instead
    vondrack: it sounds horrible... but Rep is old stuff... hmm...
    BigFree: truthfully, we have prebuilt for Sistine
    vondrack: really?
    BigFree: do not tell anyone though
    vondrack: lips sealed
    BigFree: good
    BigFree: I would be lynched for telling anyone
    BigFree: Did you notice our Palace "jump"
    vondrack: yes, we did
    BigFree: 12: 4) 1
    BigFree: my plan
    BigFree: workewd very nice
    vondrack: good idea - Madrid was poorly located
    BigFree: yes
    BigFree: we saw immediate results
    vondrack: I can imagine that
    BigFree: so, if my team wont go for the Theo-Rep combo for No-Sistine....what is the price for Rep alone?
    vondrack: no idea - we haven't discussed that option at all
    BigFree: ah
    vondrack: I would have to post and ask others
    BigFree: about...
    BigFree: in you opinion only
    vondrack: as you could see - I did not even realize we were able to trade it
    BigFree: nothing official
    vondrack: BF, I am not going to say any figure here
    BigFree: sure, np
    vondrack: I would prefer to see that no-wonder deal come through
    vondrack: so let's try that first
    BigFree: I understand
    BigFree: I will push that for you
    vondrack: great, thanks
    BigFree: Bachs would still be nice
    BigFree: not a bad consulation
    vondrack: consulation?
    vondrack: ah, consolation!
    vondrack: right
    BigFree: to the Sistine we are prebuilding
    BigFree: sorry
    BigFree: typpos' galore fom BigFree
    vondrack: but that needs Edu and Music Theory, right?
    BigFree: yes
    BigFree: 12: 4( 1
    BigFree: looks as if it might change our plans
    BigFree: that why team might not like it
    vondrack: understood
    BigFree: hmm
    BigFree: aren't you doing Education?
    vondrack: yes, we are
    BigFree: hmm
    BigFree: since we are part wat the theo now...
    BigFree: *way
    BigFree: maybe we can do a further deal
    BigFree: to guarantee you Sistine
    BigFree: you follow me?
    vondrack: yes
    vondrack: to guarantee us Sistine - and?
    BigFree: How about Rep-Theo-Educ for No Sistine-plus some gold
    vondrack: uhhhh... BF, you still aware of who you are talking with?
    BigFree: LOL
    BigFree: yes
    BigFree: its justthat we are pretty mush dead set on building the Sistine
    BigFree: it would take something drastic to change it
    vondrack: Rep+Theo for no-Sist sounded like a doable deal, but this "new" idea - well, that's not doable
    vondrack: we can agree to a free race to Sistine then
    BigFree: Ican take both proposals to my team, your and mine and see what they say
    BigFree: maybe we can offer you a free lux also
    BigFree: for x number of turns
    vondrack: ok, let's take the ideas to our teams and see
    BigFree: That way in the future you cna still trade your two for another two luxeries
    vondrack: sorry - getting really tired here
    BigFree: no problem
    BigFree: RP really wnats to work with lego more in the future
    BigFree: more than GS
    BigFree: more than GoW
    BigFree: more than anyother team
    vondrack: good... I was almost getting scared that you might like ND more than us )
    BigFree: HAHA
    BigFree: I will talk to you later then
    vondrack: ok, then - good night, BF!
    BigFree: good night
    vondrack: take care
    vondrack: bye
    BigFree: you too
    Session Close: Tue Jun 24 02:23:28 2003
    Now, let me put it straight: I am 99% sure they are bluffing (read: lying). If you have a look at their cities, you will find out they have only two that could remotely match our Legopolis - Zaragoza and Pamplona. They would have to be CRAZY to use any of them for a wonder instead of "useful" production - troops and infrastructure.

    Yeah, they want to build a 600 shield wonder just to partially trigger their GA. Sure. In a city with ~10 spt, sure. 60 turn build. Sure. We will build both Bach's and Sistine's in the same time in Legopolis (will be @ 20spt with the cathedral).

    I am quite pissed off. Talking to Zargon, Sharpe, and Kloreep, we seemed to agree that we shall call their bluff and let them be - if they become reasonable, fine, let them have Theo+Rep (but no more) for no-Sistine. But no way in hell they are getting anything else.

    Comment


    • I think that even a Theo+Rep for a no-Sistine clause is more than they deserve. No one got Theo from us so cheap. Screw this "most favoured nation" thing, I'm sick of it. They've never given us anything. What they are doing now is called extorsion. Not in his wildest sexual dream could someone imagine that we would give away a Theo+Rep+Edu deal for free.

      Let's call their bluff. Theo+Rep for no-Sistine+money or luxuries: sure. But no more than that. Do they want a wonder race? Good; now that the war is over, we need some excitement Besides, don't forget: we have experience in winning wonder-races
      "The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
      --George Bernard Shaw
      A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
      --Woody Allen

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tiberius
        I think that even a Theo+Rep for a no-Sistine clause is more than they deserve. No one got Theo from us so cheap. Screw this "most favoured nation" thing, I'm sick of it. They've never given us anything. What they are doing now is called extorsion. Not in his wildest sexual dream could someone imagine that we would give away a Theo+Rep+Edu deal for free.
        Agreed 100%. The "most favoured nation" status is less than a hollow word. They are actually acting as if they were our only enemy in this world. No other team has even come close to their level of hostility and "difficulty" when it comes to trading.

        I would, however, agree to trade Rep+Theo for no-Sistine, as that would effectively secure Bach's and Sistine's for us, which I consider VERY important - and especially with respect to RPers, as they control much of the world luxury deposits, so it would be them having the upper hand as far as lux/happiness are concerned.

        Republic is old stuff, everybody has it and everybody can trade/gift it to RPers - so throwing it in costs us little and actually undercuts others that may be able to get something from RPers...

        Originally posted by Tiberius
        Let's call their bluff. Theo+Rep for no-Sistine+money or luxuries: sure. But no more than that. Do they want a wonder race? Good; now that the war is over, we need some excitement Besides, don't forget: we have experience in winning wonder-races
        Yeah, that's the word!
        Go, Legoland!

        BTW, I've closely reviewed the map of Spain an found NOT A SINGLE SPANISH CITY we'd have to fear regarding a wonder race... their biggest city is pop 5, not even remotely matching the production potential of Legopolis. We would finish Bach's and Sistine's before they'd be done with Sistine's... (ok, exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea). I will, just for sure, go through the recent saves to see whether they produced any settlers and/or temples to determine how long they may have been prebuilding (IF they are prebuilding at all, which I seriously doubt).

        I do agree that they are bluffing - and not very well. So, let's wait and see if they get back to us with a proposal. If they do, let's settle for Rep+Theo for no-Sistine, but not a single penny more. If they aren't reasonable, wish them luck in their glorious research of Theology and futile attempt to build Sistine's.

        Comment


        • BTW, just a note about something I realized... if ND is really researching Engineering and GoW Chivalry (which I consider believable), then I would believe there must be some sort of a pact between these teams - no one sane would let his neighbour research the tech enabling deadly UUs of both sides (Chivalry gives Riders to GoW and Ansar Warriors to ND), going for a different tech, if there was the slightest chance of a war breaking out.

          So, the only thing that makes sense is that GoW is going to trade Chivalry to ND and these two will attack someone else. As attacking us or GS (aside from being extremely difficult because of having to cross oceans + ND has a long NAP with us) would only let RPers grow even stronger, grabbing quietly all the land they have at their disposal, eventually reaping the "benefit" from their war torn, exhausted Northern neighbours, I think RPers are the most likely target of the GoW/ND coalition.

          I do not think I would do anything to help RPers out. Not until they're very badly damaged (though I can imagine trading them Navigation, enabling Conquistadors, once they are having serious troubles).

          Comment


          • IMHO it is not sure that they have an agreement to attack RP, but they could have a NAP which leads to the same result (only it could be only ND against RP).

            Btw, you're right about the map, Radek. Not only they have only 3 "big" cities, but 2 of them are on the border, and one must be completely insane to build wonder prebuilds on the border. So there is really only one town (Barcelona, IIRC) that could build a wonder, but very-very slowly, IMHO. No need for worries.
            "The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not. "
            --George Bernard Shaw
            A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me and she said "no".
            --Woody Allen

            Comment


            • Heh, just came from BigFree:

              We debated the topic pretty good over here about giving up on the Sistine Chappel and going for St Bachs Cathedral.

              We'd need assurances that you would not build it.

              We'd need Theology and The Republic.

              The debate is still ongoing about what to offer you for Education. Some feel it is fair for you to give it to us since we will be giving up on one of the most powerful Wonders in the game. Some say we have enough luxeries anyways, and St Bachs is a nice consulation.(not may of those.) Some feel it is fair to offer you some gold for Education. It is how much gold that is debated. I'm authorized to offer you 100 gold for it, in addition to the "No Sistine clause."

              Another reason we feel it is neccessary to get Education from you is that we'd have to research Music Theory also before we can even build it. As we are already on our way to The Sistine Chappel we'd need to get to Music Theory fairly quickly so that we don't build something that we don't want to build, in you catch my drift (another Palace).

              We can shift the WF around a bit to delay for a while, but we'd rather have a Wonder sooner than later, as would any team. It ties up production for others items for a long time as it is.


              That would be Lego giving:
              The Republic
              Theology
              Education
              "No St Bach's clause"

              Add RolePlay gives:
              "No Sistine Chappel clause"
              100 gold

              Let me know ASAP so we can make appropriate plans; we are still researching Theology as of this moment and would like to switch to Music Theory ASAP.

              BigFree
              I suggest we (uhm... ok... "politely"... ... at least remotely politely) tell them: sorry, no deal, get stuffed.

              I personally find their demands totally outrageous. If you look at the equation BigFree so nicely put up, they want us to sell them The Republic, Theology, and Education for 100 gold. WTF?!?!?! Do they really believe we are idiots???

              Comment


              • HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAA!!

                They really must think we are idiots. If this proposal weren't so insanely absurd, it'd almost be insulting. You know, even if they beat us to Sistene somehow, they'd have just wasted a lot of energy in building a wonder that they themselves have pointed out they don't need. Again, I think this is just them trying to be the "clever" diplomats they think they are.

                So yes, time to tell them to stuff it, and we'll be taking our business elsewhere.
                I make movies. Come check 'em out.

                Comment


                • Right, after getting the official "proposal" from BigFree, I got pissed off. A lot. Yes, I admit that, I got pissed off a lot. I hate when someone assumes I am an idiot. I am simply very "sensitive" to this kind of treatment. I know I should be working on this, but... oh, well... nobody's perfect.

                  So I have arsed myself to the extent of going through the last 20+ saves to see what the f**k those Spanish bastards are cooking in their kitchen. I was looking for pop drops, city radius expansions, capitals relocations, and stuff like that. I was trying to figure out what are the chances of RPers to beat us to the Sistine's Chapel, if we build The Bach's Cathedral first. Starting on Turn 120, it shall finish the Bach's in ~30 turns (the output will be at least 20 spt). Add two more pop afterwards and the Sistine's should take ~28 turns. That's both wonders on Turn 178. We may be faster, since we shall be able to trade for some extra luxuries, allowing us to add 1 or 2 pop, speeding the builds a little bit... but Turn 178 is a pretty solid ETA for both wonders, I believe.

                  Here is what I found... alphabetically:

                  EDIT: I will edit in new stuff found in the savegames

                  Barcelona: pop dropped from 5 to 4 on Turn 107 (returned back to pop 5 one turn later); as there is no disease risk, a worker must have been built on that turn. Could be "prebuilding wonder" since Turn 107... may have (theoretically!) up to 10*(8-1)=70 shields in bank. The theoretical maximum gross shield output of the city at pop 6 (can't grow beyond that w/o an aqueduct) is 1+4*1+2*3= 11 spt (with forests chopped, all plains irrigated and two hills mined - would need another city be placed NW to extend the radius towards those hills). Considering the city must have at least 1 shield corrupted, that gives at least 53 turns (Turn 169) to finish a 600-shield wonder even if maxxed up NOW. We shall keep an eye on this city, but I am quite sure we will soon be able to omit it from the list of "candidates".

                  Bilbao: founded on Turn 102; pop 1 ever since that, which means that it is "Spanish Logville" - totally corrupt, used to produce workers only. May be safely ignored.

                  Leon: pop dropped from 4 to 3 on Turn 114. As there are floodplains in the city radius, this might have been an outbreak of disease... but I will eat my shoes if this is anything but a worker/settler camp. But even if not... the max pop here is 6 and the theoretical max shield output at pop 6 is 11spt (2 irrigated floodplains, two mined mountains, 2 mined plains). Take 1 wasted shield out and we are at 10 spt... unless we see this city growing to pop 6 and stopping its growth, we can safely omit it from the list of candidates.

                  New Madrid: founded on Turn 106, its radius expanded on Turn 116 -> means a temple was finished 5 turns earlier (the very first build in the city). May theoretically be "prebuilding wonder" since Turn 111. While obviously nowhere near its completion, this would be their best wonder site - may grow up to pop 12, has two high-food tiles. New Madrid could get very close to the production potential of Legopolis, if RPers wanted it to. We shall watch it for growth / pop drops (it is, at the same time, an ideal settler farm).

                  Pamplona: pop dropped from 6 to 4 on Turn 115; means no prebuild is on. Pamplona can theoretically get to 23spt at pop 12 (two irrigated cows, 4 mined mountains, 2 mined bonus grasses, 4 mined grasses), more or less matching the shield output of Legopolis. Although by no means a threat at this moment, we shall watch it closely.

                  Salamanca: pop dropped from 2 to 1 on Turn 117. No threat at the moment, but could be if maxxed up to pop 12 - theoretical maximum is gross 22spt (irrigated cattle, 4 irrigated plains, 5 mined hills, forest chopped and irrigated, irrigated desert). Low waste. Would be a good wonder site if maxxed out VERY SOON. Let's keep an eye on it, but unless we see it growing FAST, we can ignore it.

                  Santiago: pop dropped from 3 to 2 on Turn 116. No disease risk, means a worker or settler build. Thus, no shields in bank. Theoretical max gross shield output at pop 12 (with some lucky bonus grasses made out of jungle) would be ~14-17spt. At least 1spt wasted... and it would still take ~38 turns to build the wonder (at pop 12!). Unless we see this city being pop-maxxed, may be safely ignored.

                  Sevilla: ignored for obvious reasons.

                  Toledo: city radius explanded on Turn 106, which means a temple must have been finished on Turn 101. Might be prebuilding a wonder (up to 70 shields in bank), but has very limited production capabilities - only 1 hill and the rest is mountains. Even with as many mountains mined and worked at pop 12 as possible, the maximum gross shield output is about 15spt (1spt from the city square, 3*3=9spt from three mined hills, 3spt from the mined hill and hopefully 2spt from a lucky bonus grass). Plus, waste at least as bad as in Panama (-2spt). That's some 13spt, so more 41 turns to go even if maxxed ad absurdum THIS TURN. Let's watch it, but I do not believe this city is actually a threat to us at all.

                  Vigo: city radius expanded on Turn 101, which means a temple was finished on Turn 96. May be prebuilding a wonder since Turn 97. However: max pop 6, max gross shield output 8spt (two irrigated grasses, one mined grass, two irrigated plains, mined iron mountain). Waste roughly as in in Farmerville (>25%)... means 6spt if maxxed out. Theoretical ETA of a 600-shield wonder: Turn 197. Can be ignored completely.

                  Valencia: ignored for obvious reasons.

                  Zaragoza: pop dropped from 6 to 5 on Turn 114. No disease risk -> no prebuild (up to 27 shields in bank). The basic problem of this city is the lack of high shield tiles - even at pop 12, the max gross shield output is about ~17-19 spt (with some lucky bonus tiles made out of the jungle). Waste as in Panama (-2spt), means at least ~34 turns to the first wonder (if maxxed to pop 12 RIGHT NOW!). Unless we see this city being pop-maxxed, may be safely ignored.

                  Note, please, that I am using totally absurd calculations, assuming things like ~10 workers being added to cities, ALL tiles improved (which is difficult for a non-industrious nation) and such... even under these ridiculous assumptions, there is NO city that could be even remotely close to completing Sistine's within the next ~30 turns.

                  So, my suggestion. Let's make a table of the cities we should watch, resetting their "starting turn" every time we notice something "strange". Watch out for cities growing to high pops. But unless something weird happens, we should happily proceed with our Bach first, Sistine second plan.

                  Note: actually, the only real threat is RPers being drawn into a war, generating a leader and building Sistine's in a single turn... but then, we will always have a fine backup wonder to build (Bach's, Newton's...), so no real loss will happen. Just that things will not be exactly as we would like them to be...
                  Last edited by vondrack; June 28, 2003, 15:42.

                  Comment


                  • Considering the context and my analysis, here is a draft of the response to RPers (feel free to comment, I am not going to send it out any time soon):

                    BigFree,

                    We are sorry to inform you that we do not see how to strike a deal here. As indicated in the chat, the most we are willing to offer for the "no Sistine clause" is Republic and Theology. We are not ready to include Education or "no Bach's clause" in this deal, even if countered with gold.

                    Sincerely,
                    vondrack
                    Despite feeling badly insulted, I would still go for Rep+Theo for "no-Sistine", simply because we would secure the Sistine's against possible GL-rushes... I am quite sure RPers will be attacked soon and they may get lucky... and they may decide to build Sistine's (though I would expect them to build an army).

                    Anyway, I do not believe they will take it now - they'd "lose their face". So let's forget them and "take our business elsewhere", as ZargonX nicely put it.

                    Comment




                    • Guys, you will not believe this...

                      Last weekend, I happened to have a small chit-chat with BigFree (RP). We have got a close, very friendly relationship from the days I used to be a Consul in the ISDG. Without me even mentioning the topic, he asked about how are we going to react to their proposal on Rep, Theo, Edu... and all that stuff. I said I was not supposed to comment until the team would make a decision... but that it was highly unlikely the deal would go through. He tried to up the gold part, I said it was not the problem.

                      There was only one more person in the room (E_T, another RPer), but I switched to a private channel anyway and told BigFree - strictly in private - that I have gone through the last 20+ saves and was able to verify they are nowhere close to completing the Sistine's. And knowing that, it is not really acceptable for us to agree to the deal as proposed... especially when we are quite sure we will finish the wonder before them. He tried this and that, but I made it very clear the situation was similar to "insuring a car" - you are reasonably sure you will not crash it, but you still consider insuring against "the unexpected". But the insurance costs must not be higher than something - and that this "something" was Republic and Theology in our case.

                      And this has just arrived into my PMbox:

                      Role Play team promises not to build The Sistine Chappel. In return, Lego gifts The Republic and Theology to Role Play immediately upon approval.

                      Signed
                      Togas, King of Spain
                      I am still rolling on the floor, laughing. We called their bluff and they have just admitted it... the "deal" is so simple that there's not even a place for the famous Togas' loophole in it...

                      Gentlemen, we have secured the two key happiness wonders for us.
                      (and we will even have time to build a university and bank before going for the Sistine's in Legopolis )

                      Go, Legoland!



                      Note: I am not going to respond immediately, so feel free to think about any loophole I could be missing... but I do not believe there is anything missing in the "deal" - both techs are already non-resellable, so no NDAs are necessary... and the promise to not build the Sistine's Chapel is as clear as a day.

                      Comment


                      • Well done, Vondrack. The treaty sounds great.

                        Comment


                        • Only possible loophole that I can possibly see is that "Chapel" is spelt incorrectly - shouldn't be "Chappel" - but that would be a ridiculous loophole - one that I would not stand for if they tried something like that...

                          Good job in calling their bluff Vondrack !

                          I agree - we should immediately build a wonder, preferably Bach since I think that is the better wonder.

                          I think we can avoid a war even with the 2 happiness wonders by perhaps agreeing to not build certain wonders that we have no intention of building anyway - so we can safely agree to not build Adam Smith with GS, we already have agreed not to build Leo's with GoW, etc.

                          Comment


                          • Good point about the incorrect spelling - I will correct that before signing the "treaty" and sending it back to the RPers (but I am quite sure that 'Chappel' is just BigFree's idea of the correct spelling... ).

                            Poly going offline for many hours did not exactly help us - no idea how many of you had the chance to read about the new development regarding the no Sistine clause... I am now going to play our turn, which is going to take about an hour or so... Before sending the save to GS, I will be sure to check the forum again for more comments - unless I find something important here, I will sign the "treaty" on our behalf then, PM it back to BigFree and forward the save to GS.

                            Comment


                            • ok, signed and sent. I accidentally sent it at first without fixing the typo, so I re-sent, as follows:

                              BigFree,

                              Please ignore that first PM, that was a mis-send. This is the official treaty:

                              Role Play team promises not to build The Sistine Chapel. In return, Lego gifts The Republic and Theology to Role Play immediately upon approval.

                              Signed
                              ZargonX
                              So, I clearly said which one was official. They can't argue with that
                              I make movies. Come check 'em out.

                              Comment


                              • I've had a chat with RP's ambassador to us and as usual I got some info. RP will be most likely waiting awhile before switching to the republic. Oh, dont tell togas or we may lose the ambassador to an accident he said more then he should.
                                Join the Civ4 SPDG and save the world one library at a time.
                                Term 1 Minister of Finances in the Civ4 Democracy Game and current Justice in the Civ4 Democracy Game
                                President of the Moderate Progressives of Apolyton in the Civ4 Democracy Game Aedificium edificium est Vires

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X