DIPLO: RollPlay Team contact LOG

[notyoueither]

I was approached by BigFree very early this morning. It was soooo early, that it was actually very late yesterday (for me).

Session Start: Wed Jul 09 02:28:25 2003
Session Ident: BigFree
[02:28] Session Ident: BigFree (~bigfree1@c-66-229-58-234.we.client2.attbi.com)
[02:28] *BigFree* hey ther
[02:28] *notyoueither* yoi
[02:28] *BigFree* some PTWDG business
[02:28] *notyoueither* k
[02:28] *BigFree* I ha an idea of how to get that Galley off of your shore quickly
[02:29] *BigFree* it possible in Sp but Im not sure about MP
[02:29] *notyoueither* oh, how?
[02:29] *BigFree* you demand that we remove it
[02:29] *BigFree* in game
[02:29] *notyoueither* i think that is disabled in mp
[02:29] *BigFree* and we opt to have it moived auotmatically
[02:29] *BigFree* ah
[02:30] *notyoueither* no problem with you going back, btw. just avoid the fishies, please
[02:30] *BigFree* sure
[02:30] *notyoueither*
[02:30] *BigFree* can you gusy sell any techs to us?
[02:30] *BigFree* Chiv, Eduaction?
[02:30] *notyoueither* i don't think so.
[02:30] *notyoueither* you have repub?
[02:30] *BigFree* hmm, everyone and therii mothers have it but us
[02:31] *BigFree* yes we do
[02:31] *notyoueither* i think that when we get them, we will be subject to no trade clauses
[02:31] *BigFree* ah, ok
[02:32] *notyoueither* yes. traders are getting smarter
[02:32] *BigFree* was the message passed that we would like a NAp tied to the lux trades
[02:32] *notyoueither* i hope
[02:32] *notyoueither* i know that there is much discussion on the topic
[02:32] *BigFree* a 10 turn revolving NAP
[02:32] *notyoueither* we must decline though, as of now
[02:32] *BigFree* it is vry important as Spain want to be peaceful
[02:33] *notyoueither* so do we.
[02:33] *BigFree* 12:4)1
[02:33] *BigFree* wars cost so damn much
[02:33] *BigFree* compared to waht Lego is dooing
[02:33] *notyoueither* you telling me that?
[02:33] *BigFree* LOL
[02:34] *BigFree* anyways, thanks
[02:34] *notyoueither* yes, lego is chugging along
[02:34] *notyoueither* 'np
... veers into ISDG stuff

[notyoueither]

Approached by BigFree. ISDG bits edited.

Session Start: Tue Jul 15 19:57:05 2003
Session Ident: BigFree
---cut
[20:30] *BigFree* nye, would GS be interested in buying anothe RP lux?

[20:34] *BigFree* have you seen the PTWDG forum lately?

[20:36] *notyoueither* re lux. i am not sure, bf. i'm not sure if we really need it. do you need our lux?
[20:36] *BigFree* no we need cash
[20:36] *notyoueither* how much do you have in mind?
[20:36] *notyoueither* brb
[20:36] *BigFree* maybe 5 gpt
[20:38] *notyoueither* hmmm, that is a reasonable price. just not sure if we need it. gold is preceious rignt now
[20:38] *BigFree* more so for us though now
[20:38] *notyoueither* what is up?
[20:38] *BigFree* GoW and ND are comming for us
[20:39] *BigFree* they made it public
[20:39] *notyoueither* what? where?
[20:39] *BigFree* http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...04#post2180604
[20:45] *notyoueither* references to nd and lego
[20:45] *BigFree* yep
[20:46] *BigFree* we have intel that says ND is ready too
[20:46] *BigFree* so you see the position we are in
[20:46] *notyoueither* not good
[20:46] *notyoueither* on sec
[20:46] *BigFree* if Gs could buy "ivory" from us, we would be indebted to you.

[20:49] *notyoueither* i will take that back to the team
[20:49] *notyoueither* how do your armies stack up?

[20:49] *BigFree* not bad

[20:50] *BigFree* but we ned gold for upgrades

[20:53] *notyoueither* did they attack this turn?
[20:54] *BigFree* no, they are on our border with 10 Riders
[20:55] *BigFree* with a couple of Galley's as well nearby
[20:55] *BigFree* brb
[21:02] *BigFree* back
[21:04] *notyoueither* k. i am busy for a bit
[21:04] *BigFree* k
[21:11] *notyoueither* bf. we already have lux for lux trades in place
[21:11] *BigFree* yes we do
[21:11] *BigFree* this would be in addition
[21:11] *BigFree* maybe help you get a few WLTKD
[21:11] *notyoueither* 3rd lux?
[21:11] *BigFree* yes
[21:11] *BigFree* "Ivory"
[21:12] *notyoueither* oh. let me check. the forum is just starting to stir to the news
[21:12] *BigFree* k
[21:15] *notyoueither* i don't see a need for 1 more lux, right off. it would not hurt, but the help would not be large. however...
[21:16] *notyoueither* we are open to possibilities
[21:16] *BigFree* good, it would also help to cement future relations
[21:16] *notyoueither* i will present your needs to the forum.
[21:16] *notyoueither* one moment
[21:17] *BigFree* would GS entertain a possibility of a RP/GS alliance?
[21:17] *notyoueither* we are open to discussions
[21:18] *BigFree* cool
[21:18] *BigFree* we'd need to get it settle quickly though
[21:18] *BigFree* maybe in a turn or two
[21:18] *notyoueither* unfortunate. we are still mid voxodus
[21:18] *BigFree* We could handle one civ no prob
[21:18] *BigFree* but two prestents a prob
[21:19] *BigFree* yes, we know you are still underway with that
[21:19] *BigFree* how many turn till they hand over to you?
[21:19] *notyoueither* beginning this turn
[21:19] *notyoueither* it takes several turns to complete
[21:20] *BigFree* cool
[21:20] *notyoueither* how do you guys get on with lego?
[21:20] *BigFree* everyone i busy then
[21:20] *BigFree* not bad
[21:20] *notyoueither* i would imagine they will not like this news one bit
[21:20] *BigFree* prolly not
[21:21] *BigFree* but I'd rather ask GS for help than those isolationists
[21:21] *notyoueither* k
[21:22] *BigFree* North Bob would compliment your new Vox holdings
[21:22] *BigFree* at least on the coast
[21:22] *notyoueither* wow. no rest for us wicked
[21:23] *notyoueither* it has been war war war, all day, all night
[21:23] *BigFree* LOL
[21:23] *BigFree* we were hoping to never ever go to war
[21:23] *BigFree* we build mostly defenders
[21:24] *BigFree* but we ended up on the same land mass as the "warmongers" and i guess they have to live up to that name
[21:24] *notyoueither* yeah. i am eating while we chat, btw.
[21:24] *BigFree* sure
[21:24] *BigFree* I dont mind
[21:24] *notyoueither* if i seem to be slow to repond...
[21:24] *BigFree* just dont spit at me! 12;4)1
[21:25] *notyoueither* heh
[21:25] *notyoueither* i'd offer a piece of pizza, but getting it to you might make a mess of my monitor
[21:25] *BigFree* lol
[21:25] *BigFree* I have broadband, would that help?
[21:25] *BigFree* it would get here quicker
[21:26] *notyoueither* most likely

Session Close: Wed Jul 16 00:00:00 2003

[notyoueither]

Approached a second time. This time be WhiteBandit.

Session Start: Tue Jul 15 23:50:39 2003
Session Ident: WhiteBandit
[23:50] Session Ident: WhiteBandit (~whiteband@lsanca1-ar17-4-61-196-172.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net)
[23:50] *WhiteBandit* hey nye! can i steal a moment of your time regarding ptwdg?
[23:50] *notyoueither* sure
[23:51] *WhiteBandit* i'm still not fully aware of all the idiosyncrisies of the ptwdg since i'm still a relative newbie, so you'll have to forgive me
[23:51] *notyoueither* np
[23:51] *WhiteBandit* but would GS be open to making a deal to get us Chiv?
[23:51] *WhiteBandit* I'm not sure if there is some animosity between our sides that would prevent this
[23:52] *notyoueither* we are subbect to an nt clause
[23:52] *notyoueither* *subject
[23:52] *WhiteBandit* we just want something to put ourselves on even footing with those damn riders/ansars
[23:52] *WhiteBandit* hmm
[23:52] *WhiteBandit* is the clause with GoW?
[23:52] *notyoueither* i believe that
[23:52] *notyoueither* yes. we got it from them
[23:52] *WhiteBandit* okay
[23:52] *WhiteBandit* is the clause for a certain length of time?
[23:53] *WhiteBandit* (is it alright if i ask the specifics of it?)
[23:53] *notyoueither* 10 turns, i beleive
[23:53] *WhiteBandit* like... "do not trade to apolyton!"
[23:53] *notyoueither* no trade to no one
[23:53] *WhiteBandit* surely the depositing horses on your territory during the Vox invasion left a sour taste in your mouth though right? i dunno... i feel like, if they don't value their word with teams, why should any other team value their word with them?
[23:54] *notyoueither* we value our word, period
[23:54] *notyoueither* it is our code
[23:54] *notyoueither* we agreed at the start to never break an agreement
[23:54] *WhiteBandit* i understand
[23:54] *WhiteBandit* commendable... i wish we had teams on our continent that were like you guys :-/
[23:55] *notyoueither* did you have nap's?
[23:55] *WhiteBandit* i personally don't know what we had... i'm just trying to work out some deals to even this unfair battle up
[23:56] *notyoueither* that would be good. have you spoken to lego?
[23:56] *WhiteBandit* would you guys be open to dealing with us after the clause is up?
[23:56] *notyoueither* yes
[23:56] *notyoueither* of course
[23:56] *WhiteBandit* not yet... BF might have done it. i see he's already talked to you as well, sorry if i'm covering the same ground he is
[23:56] *notyoueither* np. i understand the stresses. boy do i
[23:57] *WhiteBandit* hehe, in the meantime you guys can sit back and watch another great propaganda war unfold
[23:57] *notyoueither* it is starting very well. togas' poem was great
[23:58] *WhiteBandit* how many turns left on the clause if i may ask?
[23:59] *notyoueither* would be 6 or 7, i think
[00:01] *WhiteBandit* okay, not too bad
[00:02] *WhiteBandit* how is the voxodus going?
[00:02] *notyoueither* one moment
[00:11] *notyoueither* back
[00:11] *WhiteBandit* ahoy!
Session Close: Wed Jul 16 00:26:50 2003

[OPD]

Arnelos asked me to come to the MAST irc room. When I got there he wanted to talk about RP and not MAST.

Will post a full summary later but for now I can remember
- they had a MPP with GoW
- he expects to loose toldeo
- they have cats but they are far away
- they don't have much navy

he talked alot about millitary and tactics I'd be deeply offended if this information were to be passed on to GoW.


*opd> lo
*Arnelos> hey
*opd> hey hey
*Arnelos> oddly, I have to talk to you about PTW1
*opd> just taking in whats going on in ptw1
*Arnelos> as for PTW2... it's been so long since the save moved that the save game thread fell off the front page
*Arnelos> what's going on in PTW1 is that GoW sent their entire d*mn army across half the planet to attack us rather than defending themselves
*opd> I think there may be a no comment from blanket from GS
*Arnelos> as for ND, we knew they were planning to attack us for a while now
*opd> how will things go?
*Arnelos> well, ND is being slow
about it... almost as though their attack is just for show
*Arnelos> GoW has 10 riders and nowhere to send them unless they attack us or ND
*Arnelos> it would take them AGES to get home
*opd> 10 riders is that all
*Arnelos> that's it
*Arnelos> we can beat the riders if luck and tactics are on our side
*Arnelos> they'll be stuck in jungle
for at least 2 turns if they don't try to storm the mountain fortification... if they storm the mountain, they'll lose at least half of their riders doing that
*opd> do you think any cities will fall?
*Arnelos> I personally figure we'll lose Toledo to GoW if we don't get lucky with the moutain and jungle fighting
*Arnelos> as for the ND attack, we
have no idea since they haven't even arrived yet
*Arnelos> the thing that's going for us is that darn jungle
*Arnelos> 3 movement points swallowed per tile... which nullifies the advantage of their UU's until they get out of it
*opd> I can't see their forces just being 10 riders
*Arnelos> GoW only brought 10 riders. ND is the rest of it
*Arnelos> the thing is... I believe 10 riders is all they have for a simple reason: their domestic develop is atrociously bad
*Arnelos> they've built nothing but mil units and barracks the whole game
*opd> really?
*Arnelos> as far as we can tell... they're easily the last place civ in the world other than Vox now
*opd> but they've hardly been in any
wars
*Arnelos> Bob has been a non-stop arms race the whole game
*Arnelos> and GoW's capital... accounting for most of their production, has been busy very SLOWLY building the Great Library for ages now
*opd> if you have cats the jungle will serve you well as a defencsive wall
*Arnelos> our main problem at the
moment is that our cats are too far away
*Arnelos> it will take time to haul them up to the GoW front in the East
*Arnelos> especially with all of those rivers
*Arnelos> if ND attacks through the jungle, though... we can easily beat off a force of ~10 Ansars in the West... a lot easier than the GoW force in the East
*Arnelos> the problem is long-term
*opd> if they've just riders and no defence with jungle to cross
*opd> the prob is GA'a?
*Arnelos> we can certainly bleed GoW and ND of most of their initial armies, but their GA's will kick in and they'll eventually out-produce us unless we get help
*Arnelos> yup
*Arnelos> the thing is... we figure GS and Lego have a concrete
interest in making sure any Bobian war is a bloodbath
*opd> how so?
*Arnelos> bleed as much of the ND and GoW GA's away as possible
*Arnelos> make sure they're weak when the war is over so ND doesn't become an even larger superpower
*Arnelos> that's basically our aim... we can't - long term - defeat a 2-front war... our goal is to bleed them as much as
possible and hopefully (if it's possible) waste their GA's
*Arnelos> we could do that a lot more effectively (even if we eventually get wiped out) if we get some help
*Arnelos> the best situation for us AND for people off-continent is that RP Team survives and Bob remains divided, leaving all 3 civs weak
*Arnelos> but if we can't have that,
we might as well bleed them for as much as we're worth
*opd> do you think you'll be able to take any cities?
*Arnelos> if they keep coming, yes
*Arnelos> GoW might even be able to break through with a few riders in the intial rush
*Arnelos> no idea how many Ansars ND has, so that's harder to gauge
*opd> Nd is more of a power house
*opd> how strong does the partnership
of ND and GoW seem to you?
*Arnelos> the thing is... the whole war makes sense for ND... they can conquer Spanish cities and have them be non-corrupt
*Arnelos> for GoW, it makes almost zero sense
*Arnelos> unless they've consciously decided that the game is over for them anywyas and they might as well play spolier
*Arnelos> *spoiler
*opd> I don't know about that
*Arnelos> if GoW actually takes any RP territory, it's 20 tiles away... hopeless corrupt and with a powerhouse ND in between them and their new territory
*Arnelos> ND can just turn around and wipe out whatever GoW claimed... then take over GoW
*opd> GoW must move through ND land
*Arnelos> assuming GoW doesn't backstab ND, of course
*opd> ND have to be worried about that
*Arnelos> we've been assuming all along that GoW was going to backstab ND
*Arnelos> we put forces near Toledo to guard against GoW attack (and thank god for that), but we still half-figure they might just turn around and backstab ND
*Arnelos> it's a collosal game of chicken
*opd> the good news for RP is neither enemy can bring their full millitarty for fear of backstab
*Arnelos> GoW wants ND to attack first so they can backstab ND rather than wasting their 10 riders against us... ND wants GoW to attack first to prove their serious
*Arnelos> *they're
*opd> I wouldn't trust GoW at all
*Arnelos> we didn't... that's why we
moved our troops up there
*opd> MZ is the king of evil plans
*Arnelos> well... we had MZ's "evil plan" pegged the whole time
*Arnelos> from what they were saying, we knew a force of some riders, no idea how many, were headed south around ND and that ND was ok with this
*Arnelos> we also already knew ND planned to attack us
*opd> have lego commented yet
*opd> You knew ND were going to????
*Arnelos> Lego would like to help us, but they have not been specific
*Arnelos> ND stopped all communication several turns back... we even sent them an offer for Ivory and they just never acknowledged it
*Arnelos> given that they were scouting the border, it was pretty certain what was up
*Arnelos> we'd already SUSPECTED they were going to attack us, but
those two things confirmed it
*Arnelos> the wild card was GoW... we didn't know whether they were going to backstab ND or attack us
*opd> If you knew ND were going to attack why didn't you get GoW on your side?
*Arnelos> we saw their force of riders 2 turns ago I think... GoW told us they'd backstab ND, told ND they'd attack us. We hoped they'd backstab ND, but assumed
they'd attack us and sent troops up there
*Arnelos> We *tried* to get GoW on our side
*Arnelos> GoW pretended, but we didn't trust them
*Arnelos> not with their riders still coming south
*opd> You could have offered most of ND's land adn still be stronger than them
*Arnelos> that's the thing... we DID
*opd> hmmmn
*Arnelos> we offered GoW *exactly* what they asked for... a 50/50 split of the continent
*opd> wow
*Arnelos> in fact, we were allied to GoW before this... technically, that alliance was broken when GoW declared war... we've had an MPP with them for ages
*opd> I guess they must have a NAP with ND then
*Arnelos> in fact, they renewed it somewhat recently (as insurance against ND)
*opd> you had MPP?
*Arnelos> GoW also asked for an offensive alliance against ND
*opd> lol very slippery
*opd> talk about untrustworthy
*Arnelos> We've had an MPP with GoW since before the Lux war
*opd> what???
*opd> did ND know?
*Arnelos> not sure if that's constant... it probably was broken for a period
*Arnelos> nope
*Arnelos> ND never knew to our knowledge
*opd> and so did the MPP run out last turn?
*Arnelos> nope
*Arnelos> it's still active - minus the whole declaration of war thing
*Arnelos> our NAP with ND ran out,
though
*Arnelos> they purposely declined to renew... one of MANY signs they were going to attack us
*opd> are you saying that GoW broke a MPP
*Arnelos> yes, that's exactly what GoW has done
*opd> WTF
*opd> when was it agreed?
*Arnelos> ND has been completely honorable, though... they even
apologized to us in PMs when they finally let us know they were declaring war
*Arnelos> lemme check on the MPP
*Arnelos> active until 500 A.D. it looks like
*opd> so how are they spinning this?
*opd> are there any loop holes
*Arnelos> lemme check the details of the treaties...
*Arnelos> hmm... I can't find the original treaty, just the most
recent proposals for the offensive alliance... I'm still looking... the thing is, the treaty itself was renewed so many times it's hard to find the original
*opd> have RP made this clear in the main forum
*opd> breaking a MPP is something that GS and everyone else takes v. seriously
*Arnelos> you'll have to check with Togas on the exact timing
*Arnelos> here's what Togas sent Darekill, though:
*Arnelos> Your team is noble and intelligent and I don't need to tell you that GoW will ultimately betray you, as they have betrayed us. We had a pact with them which they broke. Additionally they were negotiating with us a longterm alliance up until Monday which they used as a ruse to try to deceive us. Thankfully, my people
are too distrusting and we have sufficient arms to repel their attack.
*Arnelos> ask Togas for confirmation, but I'm rather sure the MPP was still active
*Arnelos> I believe it went through 500 A.D., but I'm not sure
*opd> If the mpp was still active then you should get togas to post in the main forum
*Arnelos> as I said, ND didn't break
any agreements because they refused to renew the ones we had when they ran out a few turns back
*opd> panzer is being quite slanderous about you too?
*Arnelos> GoW, as I recall, was fine with renewing things and even signing new treaties
*opd> you promised help to vox and lux?
*Arnelos> no
*Arnelos> we never promised anything
to either of them
*Arnelos> RP participated in the joint chats where everyone was trying to help out first Lux, then Vox
*Arnelos> but we never pledged to send anything
*Arnelos> hell, we knew it was folly
*Arnelos> with Lux, GoW backstabbed them
*Arnelos> we just realized we couldn't do anything... we
specifically told Lux Invicta there was nothing we could do
*opd> sorry it is GF sayin gyou promised them help
*Arnelos> yeah... GF is... notoriously unreliable
*Arnelos> I don't know the details of the Vox stuff
*Arnelos> I wasn't around for that
*Arnelos> I know we didn't send anything
*Arnelos> for Lux, I was in that
*Arnelos> I know we didn't send anything
*Arnelos> for Lux, I was in that chat... we were actually honest about not being able to help, which Trip found disheartening. GhengisFarb was trying to see if Lux would sell GoW one of their cities in return for military assistance.... when Lux didn't play ball, GoW attacked the city (which Lux razed themselves)
*opd> lol
*Arnelos> of course, GhengisFarb is no longer in charge of Glory of War
*Arnelos> so his sins are ancient history as far as we're concerned
*opd> is he even in gow anynore
*Arnelos> yes, I believe he is
*opd> you remember inchon?
*Arnelos> that was where GoW attacked you guys?
*Arnelos> I don't think I was here for that
*opd> where GS flanked vox
*Arnelos> ah
*Arnelos> nope
*Arnelos> good name for it
*opd> are you prepared for an atempt at dropping units behind your lines by navy?
*opd> vox weren't and that was the killing blow
*Arnelos> true
*Arnelos> the problem is that we don't have enough galleys at the
moment - we'd have to build them... our hope is that Lego or you would do the honors of that part if it's possible
*opd> btw is it possible to agree in game MPP and alliances yet
*Arnelos> the other problem is that ND's forces are highly mobile... 3 move, plus a road network
*Arnelos> alliances - yes, MPP - no
*opd> we have an embassy with you now
*Arnelos> oh?
*Arnelos> oh, that's right... we could see your capital, but nothing around it until we traded maps
*Arnelos> so of course we must have had embassies
*Arnelos> just didn't think much about that
*Arnelos> the thing is... GoW is by far the more dishonorable of the two (ND and GoW), but ND is the
potential superpower
*Arnelos> so it's a toss-up which one we need to concentrate on
*Arnelos> personally, I figure we should concentrate on GoW's 10 riders... once we beat those, it will take GoW forever to reinforce
*Arnelos> but the military strategy is up to dejon and Togas, not me
*opd> BTW one think I always want to know
*opd> why do you not rename any of
your cities>
*Arnelos> lol
*Arnelos> it's the whole "roleplay" theme - the idea is to play *as* Spain
*Arnelos> we actually have renamed all of them. The cities are named for the "region" we assigned the areas of our part of Bob
*opd> nice
*Arnelos> the fact that real Spanish cities largely have the same names
as the Civ3 Spanish citylist is no coincidence
*opd> muhwaahahahahaha
*opd> 5 - 0
*opd> in the coup thread
*Arnelos> lol
*Arnelos> yeah, I was the first vote
*Arnelos> didn't even realize we had 5 active people
*opd> hmmn
*Arnelos> seems like it's just you,
me, bongo, and sometimes Krakan
*opd> krakan and bongo voted
*opd> so I guess either thud or diss is lurking these days
*Arnelos> probably Thud
*opd> I'll give him a medal anyway
*Arnelos> he actually posted in RP today for the first time in a loooong time
*opd> was it a so whats new post?
*Arnelos> lol
*Arnelos> sorta... he posted in the
Armageddon thread with something like that
*opd> the thread dedicated to starting armageddon
*Arnelos> no, the thread dedicated to worrying about armageddon
*Arnelos> we've had a lot of those
*Arnelos> Bob has been in a non-stop arms race since the Lux war
*Arnelos> everyone's stayed "average" to each other militarily for a very long time, but we've all been
building units much of that time
*Arnelos> that's why our land isn't fully settled... we couldn't afford to do that AND keep up in the arms race
*opd> why would you need to be so involved in an arms race if you had a mpp with gow?
*Arnelos> two reasons
*Arnelos> 1 - We never trusted Glory of War to actually UPHOLD the MPP... this is Glory of War,
afterall
*Arnelos> 2 - Even if ND attacks us and GoW attacks them from behind, we'd still be attacked by ND first... and we'd like to have enough defense to repell the attack
*Arnelos> which means that while we have enough force to rather easily repell GoW or ND by themselves, repelling both is going to be a mighty challenge... probably impossible
*Arnelos> though we're certainly going to try
*opd> war can be the best part of the game
*Arnelos> if you're winning it, sure
*opd> the war with vox was both the best and worst part of this game for alot of GS'ers
*Arnelos> I'm sure
*opd> I think the odds were stacked alot higher against GS during the
start of vox war than for RP now
*Arnelos> you guys got a lot of dumping on by every other team in the game, it seems. I wasn't there for that, but I've heard bits of what happened with it
*opd> yeah alot of bitterness there
*Arnelos> our largest problem right now is that our UU won't be available until Navigation
*Arnelos> granted, it's a kickass UU for situations just like this, but
we aren't going to have it for a while
*opd> and so GA while the other 2 are in or will be in Ga's
*Arnelos> imagine using that Spanish Conquistador to attack ND through the jungle in a single turn too bad it's so far away
*Arnelos> I mean... Conquistadors (attack 3, 3 movement, treat all squares as roads) seem nearly ideally suited for hunting down
Ansar Warriors (defense 2, do NOT treat all squares as roads)
*Arnelos> but even Legoland is 2 techs away from Navigation
*Arnelos> and we certainly aren't building a wonder anytime soon
*opd> the perfect UU for this war it would seem
*Arnelos> for fighting through a gigantic jungle.. we couldn't have a better UU... the problem is that we won't have it
*Arnelos> hell, we don't even have knights yet
*opd> yeah but knights might aswell be MI if you're fighting through jungle
*Arnelos> though I still stand by my earlier argument that on defense (once we get down to 1 front, especially) building 1 pike + 1 medieval infantry is probably worth more than 1 knight...
*Arnelos> yeah, that's the other
part of the logic to our defense... that's why we didn't build horsemen, either
*Arnelos> with a jungle and rivers on our border, we could use spears and swords
*opd> time for some food,
*opd> back in a bit
*Arnelos> now for the same 70 shields the enemy builds a rider, we can build 1 MI to attack it and 1 pike to defend against it
*opd> *Arnelos> we offered GoW *exactly* what they asked for... a 50/50 split of the continent
*opd> *opd> wow
*opd> *Arnelos> in fact, we were allied to GoW before this... technically, that alliance was broken when GoW declared war... we've had an MPP with them for ages
*opd> *opd> I guess they must have a NAP with ND then
*Arnelos> yeah?
*Arnelos> I'm pretty sure that's correct
*Arnelos> you'll have to double-check with togas
*Arnelos> the organization for treaties in our forum is atrocious
*Arnelos> as for the offer to GoW... that IS what happened
*Arnelos> we offered them a 50/50 split of the continent when they came to us... hell, if you want, I can see if Togas will let us give
you guys a transcript of the entire IRC chat with Unorthodox
*opd> lo sorry about that
*opd> am copying log to word as I always forget to log chat
*Arnelos> yeah, same here
*opd> must have copied some of it into here
*opd> hmmm transcript of togas chat with UnO would be good
*opd> especially if it concerns a MPP?
*Arnelos> it concerns GoW trying to get us to sign an offensive alliance against ND
*Arnelos> the MPP might ahve come up though
*Arnelos> I'm pretty sure there was no need, though... it's still active I think
*opd> that would be cool

[OPD]

MPP between RP and GoW recieved from togas yesterday while apolyton was down.





This Pact is hereby approved by the Nation of Spain.
May we both prosper while our enemies wither.

Pact signed into action on 590 BC (turn 98)

BigFree
Chief Ambassador to the Crown of Spain
========================================

quote:


DEFENSE PACT BETWEEN THE GLORY OF WAR AND SPAIN:

1) In the event that either party to this agreement is attacked by Neu
Demoglyptica, the other party shall immediately declare war on Neu Demoglyptica
and shall
commit the majority of their military towards the conquest or destruction of Neu
Demoglyptica.

2) Once the war has begun the leaders of both nations shall meet, exchange
combat
and spy information, and attempt to cooperate as much as possible in
the joint war effort.

3) Neither party may negotiate a separate peace with Neu Demoglpytica. Peace
with
Neu Demoglyptica must be agreed on by all parties.

4) This pact shall last for 30 turns upon which it may be renegotiated.



========================================
From my part, and in the name of The Glory of War, we wish Spain the best of
luck
in its endeveours and hope that this treaty is only the beginning of a strong
and
beneficial relationship.

Yours truly

Master Zen
Consul of Foreign Affairs for The Glory of War


* Now talking in #PTWTalks
* Topic is ' GS-RP Embassy'
* Set by BigFree on Wed Jul 16 02:16:31
* opd is now known as opdaway
* Shiber has joined #PTWTalks
*Shiber> Sandwich, mmmm.....
*Shiber> :drool:
* Togas has joined #ptwtalks
*Togas> hello
*opdaway> hello
*Shiber> hi
*Togas> I don't want to rehash old ground that BF or the others have covered
*opdaway> togas I'd like to see the MPP with GoW
*Togas> I'm here mostly to provide information and answer questions you have
*Togas> I will send the MPP via email. Poly is giving me fits
*opdaway> k
*Togas> email?
*opdaway> *******
* opdaway is now known as opd
*Togas> shiber?
*Togas> sent to OPD
*Shiber> Sorry, I was away for a sec
*Shiber> I'm not here representing anyone, I'm just looking for a way to kill a few minutes
*Shiber> Which are up, btw
*Togas>
*Shiber> I'm off to walk the dog (yes, the one in the avatar )
*Togas> take care
*Shiber> thanks
*Shiber> later togas
* Shiber has quit IRC (Quit: Shiber has no reason)
*opd> ok so I see an agreement in place should either of you be attacked by ND
*opd> This agreement shall be broken when ND attack you and GoW don't declare war on them
*Togas> basicly
*Togas> unless ND waits a few more turns, which is possible
*opd> ah when does it run out?
*Togas> 129
*opd> 2 turns
*opd> was there any agreement to keep this secret from ND?
*Togas> not really, next turn is 26 for us
*Togas> of course you guys have probably already played it
*Togas> nothing written into it
about keeping it secret
*opd> other than this you were only in discussions about further agreements?
*opd> such as an alliance with gow
*Togas> we were in discussion for a new agreement that expanded this one further
*Togas> would basicly be a long term alliance with GoW
*opd> and you had no agreements with ND other than a NAP which ran out
a few turns ago
*Togas> yes, no formal agreements with them.
*Togas> They were a little deceptive, of course, but haven't lied to us or broken any agreements with us
*opd> ok so GoW are in the clear aslong as ND don't attack you for a few turns
*Togas> for the most part, yes. There's a lot of implied promises and deception that I could cry
about, but that's silly. Formally. Written Agrement-wise. If they wait for the pact to expire, and ND then attacks, they're in the clear.
*opd> arrggh damn poly
*Togas> I know what you mean
*opd> ok will post this in the GS forum anyway
*opd> I couldn't possibly make any comment on behalf on GS at this point
*Togas> I completely understand
*opd> cheers
*opd> and thanks for the info
*Togas> before you go:
*Togas> Just let them know that, officially, we are open for communications/negotiations on any matters.
*Togas> The propect of facing 2 nations with their UUs and GAs is frightening to us, as you can understand
*Togas> and we will not rule out any options.
*opd> we are indeed
*Togas> good.
*Togas> If you need any further information, please let me know
*opd> cheers
*Togas> later

[ManicStarSeed]

A log from this afternoon

(E_T) Hello
(opd) allo allo
(E_T) Arnie and BF need to talk to as many GS people as is possible
(opd) I will see what I can do
(opd) well I'll contact nye
(E_T) Is Tuberski a GS memeber?
* BigFree has joined #WWB
(BigFree) hey
(opd) hey hey BF
(opd) happy birthday
* E_T sets mode: +o BigFree
(BigFree) thanks
(BigFree) can I have a present?
(opd) no
(Arnelos) hey
(BigFree) maybe about 10 Galleys full of MI's
(BigFree)
(BigFree) LOL
(E_T) or war chariouts
(opd) I think perhaps nye is busy
(BigFree) seriously though, what would it take to get GS as our Ally?
(opd) you didn't summond me here to ask that did you?
(Arnelos) BF - should I lay out what we've seen this turn?
(E_T) I tried to get MSS in here, too
(opd) wow
(BigFree) yes, we know you are the 'real' power behind GS
(Arnelos) we do?
(opd) I'm going to have to edit that out
(BigFree) Yes Arnelos
(Arnelos)
(E_T) Tell all Arnie
(Arnelos) ok... ND has moved 28 military units either into our territory or into the jungle
(opd) I'd be amazed if you could get MSS
(opd) wow 28!!!!!
(Arnelos) given the size of militaries and that we are still "average" to ND, we figure this leaves a skeleton defense in ND's cities
(E_T) Arnie, it is a settler
(opd) what is the make up of the forces
(Arnelos) GoW has now 14 riders on our border, most of which were probably upgrades. This means that most of their money was spent upgrading horses to riders rather than spears to pikes... they probably have a small force of spears defending home. THey're probably counting on their GA funding more upgrades.
(E_T) 10 ansars
(BigFree) We can send screen shots if you like
(opd) are you average or strong compared to GoW
(BigFree) we are pulling out the stops here
(BigFree) average
(Arnelos) It would take GoW at least 8-10 turns to send their 14 riders home
(Arnelos) We are average to both of them, have been for a very long time
(opd) screen shots would be cool
(BigFree) if it were just one of them against us, we can handle it, but with two, and both using their UU's and going into a GA; boy, that is trouble.
(Arnelos) My theory is that both of them have every single military unit at their disposal toward this attack... it's an attempt at overwhelming force, and not a bad one. But it leaves their home cities woefully undefended
(E_T) the main stack is 10 ansars, 3 pike, 4 MI and 1 settler
(opd) 1 stlr?
(Arnelos) the part about their home cities being "woefully undefended" while their ENTIRE armies are south of the jungle means that even if they were attacked, it would take time for their armies to get home
(Arnelos) even a considerably small force landed in the north could probably do untold amounts of damage to their economies
(opd) have you calculated their maximum possible amount of troops
(E_T) we think they are going to open up part of the jungle with it and have an open point into our lands
(Arnelos) calculated possible max units, haven't had time yet... just got the save a bit back... still collecting stuff
(E_T) Oh, does Vox have any military left, or did they disband it all??
(opd) they still have some
(E_T) BF has to go to work in 5 minutes
(BigFree)
(E_T) are they in route to their new land??
(opd) don't they know it's your b-day
(BigFree) HAHA
(E_T) maybe they can land and attack, too?
(opd) I think so
(opd) lol
(Arnelos) given how underdefened GoW must be... it's a possibility, especially on GoW's island
(E_T) get a new land, better than Lego is giving them
(opd) hmmmmn
(BigFree) Yes, GoW land can become Vox Land
(BigFree) LOL
(E_T) Arnie, the only route thaty have to get there is right north of GoW
(Arnelos) E_T, their galleys are headed past it en route to the land Lego is giving them anyhow
(Arnelos) they have to... no other way but across ocean I believe
(E_T) Yes, so they can "drop off" a little bit sooner
(Arnelos) which would help solve their money problem
(Arnelos) the problem is obviously GoW retaliation down the line... Vox isn't dumb enough to do it if GoW will be strong enough to retaliate
(E_T) but with everyone else helping, it would be a possibility
(BigFree) adios
(Arnelos) but if GS were to invade Bob for their OWN reasons, given the sheer level of under-defense in the entire northern part of the continent and GoW's entire army being in RP territory across the map...
(opd) later BF
(BigFree) time to go to work for me, see you all later.
(E_T) it's not something to be discounted
* BigFree is now known as BF|Away
(E_T) and as far as I know, they are still mostly under GS controll, right OPD??
(opd) omg MSS has sent me a PM
(E_T) and ??
(opd) he hasn't a clue whats going on
(opd) he is busy too I think
(Arnelos) OPD - here's the thing... with 28 ND units and 14 GoW riders either in or on our borders, even with our sizable military, we can't beat THOSE odds unless our luck is in the absolute extreme. We are at the point where we would be willing to basically offer GS what they want for intervention... including becoming a "vassal state" as Togas put it
(opd) hmmmn
(opd) what did Togas say?
(Arnelos) We can certainly eat up much of their militaries, but we can't beat it all
(Arnelos) those are actually Togas' words... "vassal state"
(E_T) (ArnCiv3) basically, our only route out of this is to become GS' satellite state... but I'm willing to do that if it thwarts ND and GoW and keeps Spain around
(E_T) (E_T) And they will lose the Lux trade, too
(E_T) (Togas) I'll sign off on that.
(E_T) (Togas) We could be a Vassal of GS
(opd) interesting
(opd) GS fully understands the way things are with regard to this war
(Arnelos) because we can certainly eat up a lot of those attacking forces, but in the end, we'll lose
(E_T) against both, with their GA's, no way at all
(opd) Are you saying that you're willing to forgo any chance of winning the game to see ND and GoW defeated?
(Arnelos) we can certainly try to bleed away and waste as much of their GA's as possible, but in the end, our GA can't start unless we get a GL for the Sistine (and get lucky) or get Navigation
(Arnelos) OPD - yes
(E_T) and you can bet that one or the other will become the super power if that happens
(Arnelos) OPD - with this double invasion, our chances of winning the game are already sunk
(Arnelos) at this point, we have to find a patron and help them out
(opd) Are you willing to agree to a "untill the end of the game" agreement with GS?
(Arnelos) That is exactly what we are saying
(opd) ok here is how things should move
(opd) Togas must send an email to nye with regard to what has been said here
(E_T) we will help you monitarily, we will help you militarily, we will help you research wise, we will give you workers, ect...
(Arnelos) I'd think the first thing would be all of our luxes
(E_T) brb
(E_T) we arfe already tradin g
(Arnelos) not all of them with GS, I believe
(E_T) we are already trading them luxes and were to get them more, but for the war...
(E_T) Everything but Ivory and spices
(opd) Now I'm excited
(Arnelos) lol
(E_T) we just got the Ivory connected and have had to move away from the spices for other things
(opd) So I'm guessing Lego has not exactly been forcoming with help
(Arnelos) well, we have 3 more ivory unconnected
(Arnelos) Lego is willing to help, but we figure they'll only send money and tech
(E_T) We can send them Ivory this turn
(Arnelos) money and tech are nice, but we're sunk if that's all we get
(opd) How willing are you to hurt lego?
(Arnelos) OPD - look... if we become a vassal of GS, does that really matter?
(E_T) Lego really hasn't been much of a help at all, as they know that a peacefull Bob is the worst thing for them'
(opd) ok
(opd) so like I said Togas should send an email to nye stating all that has been stated here
(opd) addressed to GS
(Arnelos) The main reason to keep us around is to keep Bob weak and divided. If the goal is to also attack Lego, sure. But we'll obviously need a while to rebuild for such an endeavor
(Arnelos) alright, Togas is currently driving home from work in RL
(E_T) Realistcly, GS is out of reach of them until Navigation, but anyone on Bob can be in Lego real quick
(opd) this is not some self gratifying thing it is the neccessary procedure
(Arnelos) no, we understand
(E_T) Or, NYE can send it to Togas, He will sign off on it, as you have seen
(Arnelos) E_T... well, if GS and RP have a ROP, GS can send galleys around our south shore without incident or even comment to other civs ;p
(opd) Lego is for the future
(E_T) GS can cross the path much faster, too
(Arnelos) for now, the main goal is to keep Bob weak and divided...
* E_T is now known as E_Tcigare
(Arnelos) RP is already going to be weakened by this war, as will the invading militaries of our enemies. The only thing remaining is to damage their economies.
(E_Tcigare) back in a bit
(opd) good idea ET
(opd) do you mind?
(Arnelos) huh?
(E_Tcigare) No, go ahead...
(Arnelos) yeah, go ahead
(E_Tcigare) OPD is also going to have a smoke
(Arnelos) lol
* E_Tcigare .
(opd) cheers I need a min to take this in
(opd) good idea ET
(opd) do you mind?
(Arnelos) huh?
(E_Tcigare) No, go ahead...
(Arnelos) yeah, go ahead
(E_Tcigare) OPD is also going to have a smoke
(Arnelos) lol
* E_Tcigare .
(opd) cheers I need a min to take this in
(Arnelos) E_T - do you have a log of all of this?
(Arnelos) ('cause I'm manually copying it into one at the moment)
(Arnelos) ok, copied everything into a log
(opd) back
(E_Tcigare) I should have a log
* E_Tcigare is now known as E_T
(E_T) yes, I do
(opd) ok alot has been said here
(opd) what you're proposing is likely to decide the outcome of the whole game
(E_T) Arnie, can you start filling OPD in on the Geo-political situation on our contenant?
(Arnelos) what exactly do you mean?
(E_T) it's beet that we side with someone who can win than to lose completely
(E_T) all of our conjectures about ND and GoW
(Arnelos) ah
(E_T) all of the things that GoW and ND have been doing
(E_T) the "evil plan" that is likely unfolding
(Arnelos) the largest problem for the GoW-ND "alliance" is that it's very fragile. The only thing holding it together at the moment is a desire to steal RP land.
(Arnelos) GoW and ND don't trust each other at all... both played a game of chicken when they approached our borders... both sides wanted the other one to attack first so they couldn't be backstabbed
(Arnelos) finally, they jointly declared war in public at the same time... but GoW first
(Arnelos) ND has fully committed it seems nearly every military unit they have, but GoW has been dodgy... they haven't really moved in yet, just sorta moving about on our border
(Arnelos) We believe GoW wants ND to attack us so that they can backstab ND while RP is weak
(opd) I see
(Arnelos) In fact, that is what we have believed all along... but GoW has had to "prove themselves to ND" by actually declaring war on us and moving their riders into our territory. They have not attacked, we believe, because they want to fight us on the cheap... their real target is ND
(E_T) GoW could have attacked us, what, 2 turns ago?
(E_T) ISDG save is here, back in a bit
(Arnelos) so it's possible that GoW will destroy one city of ours, then turn around and attack ND
(Arnelos) thing is... they saw our stack of pikes and MI come out to meet them and they immediately retreated around to attack another city (1 pop, little defense)
(opd) hmmmn
(opd) so you think GoW is going to backstab ND
(Arnelos) but with the full commital of ND forces, it's questionable whether ND will be able to defend themselves if GoW attacks in the next 2-3 turns
(Arnelos) We've thought that GoW was planning to backstab ND once the ND-RP war started for a long time... we still think that's the plan... they had to alter it when ND got suspicious
(opd) yes but if you think the alliance is going to split then why are you offering to become a GS vassal?
(Arnelos) 2 reasons
(Arnelos) 1 - our forces are split on two fronts... even if one of those fronts evaporates, ND is going to push through the other front with their 28 units and do serious damage to our main production center
(Arnelos) That puts us far enough down in long-term potential that we're going to need a patron anyhow
* nye has joined #WWB
(Arnelos) 2 - GoW may actually still attack in order to raze our 2 cities in the East before turning around
(opd) lo nye
(Arnelos) hey NYE
(nye) hello
(nye) i will be idle, mostly. available again later
(Arnelos) ok
* E_T sets mode: +o nye
(opd) to recap
(Arnelos) The thing is... we're seeking clarity for the endgame. If we know that our chances of actually *winning* the game are sunk, the next best thing we can do is attach ourselves to a potential winner and do everything we can to make sure THEY win
(opd) (Arnelos) OPD - here's the thing... with 28 ND units and 14 GoW riders either in or on our borders, even with our sizable military, we can't beat THOSE odds unless our luck is in the absolute extreme. We are at the point where we would be willing to basically offer GS what they want for intervention... including becoming a "vassal state" as Togas put it
(E_T) Arnie, we will need to make an Embassy with GS to get the RoP
(Arnelos) we already have an embassy
(opd) (opd) Are you saying that you're willing to forgo any chance of winning the game to see ND and GoW defeated?
(opd) (Arnelos) we can certainly try to bleed away and waste as much of their GA's as possible, but in the end, our GA can't start unless we get a GL for the Sistine (and get lucky) or get Navigation
(opd) (Arnelos) OPD - yes
(opd) ok sorry about that
(Arnelos) NYE needs the recap, keep posting quotes if you want
(opd) I think thats it
(nye) thanks
(opd) should this happen it may be possible for RP to strike the killing blow to GoW and ND
(Arnelos) (E_T) Tell all Arnie
(Arnelos) (Arnelos) ok... ND has moved 28 military units either into our territory or into the jungle
(Arnelos) (opd) I'd be amazed if you could get MSS
(Arnelos) (opd) wow 28!!!!!
(Arnelos) (Arnelos) given the size of militaries and that we are still "average" to ND, we figure this leaves a skeleton defense in ND's cities
(Arnelos) (E_T) Arnie, it is a settler
(Arnelos) (opd) what is the make up of the forces
(Arnelos) (Arnelos) GoW has now 14 riders on our border, most of which were probably upgrades. This means that most of their money was spent upgrading horses to riders rather than spears to pikes... they probably have a small force of spears defending home. THey're probably counting on their GA funding more upgrades.
(opd) if that is something you'd like
(Arnelos) we'll see
(Arnelos) I don't think that's as important as that the job gets done
(Arnelos) we'll cross the bridge when and if we come to it
(opd) ok as this is kinda important
(opd) Other members of GS must be informed
(Arnelos) that's fine
(opd) also I gotta go to bed
(Arnelos)
(opd) So leave you with nye
(Arnelos) ok, I've got to log the latest parts of this... my log currently only runs up to when E_T ducked out the last time
(nye) oh oh. i am mid turn in isdg.
(nye) i have to blast back to work to lock up. i can return between 9.30 and 10.30 or so
(E_T) that's o.k., hopefully OPD can get a few more GS people in here
(E_T) OPD, can you e-mail them to come here?
(Arnelos) ok, log updated
(opd) I emailed SR but I guess he's asleep
(Arnelos) NYE - Togas should be online later
(opd) will try Nbarclay
(Arnelos) he's currently driving home from work
(nye) better to reconvene a bit later
(E_T) We will be here
(nye) ok. i will return later
(E_T) we aren't going to play our turn for a while atill
(E_T) *still

[notyoueither]

This evenings chat.

Session Start: Thu Jul 17 18:34:56 2003
Session Ident: #WWB
[18:34] * Now talking in #WWB
[18:34] * Topic is 'Notify us when you get here'
[18:34] * Set by E_T on Thu Jul 17 17:40:20
[18:35] *Arnelos* 2 - GoW may actually still attack in order to raze our 2 cities in the East before turning around
[18:35] *opd* lo nye
[18:35] *Arnelos* hey NYE
[18:35] *nye* hello
[18:35] *nye* i will be idle, mostly. available again later
[18:35] *Arnelos* ok
[18:36] * E_T sets mode: +o nye
[18:36] *opd* to recap
[18:36] *Arnelos* The thing is... we're seeking clarity for the endgame. If we know that our chances of actually *winning* the game are sunk, the next best thing we can do is attach ourselves to a potential winner and do everything we can to make sure THEY win
[18:36] *opd* *Arnelos* OPD - here's the thing... with 28 ND units and 14 GoW riders either in or on our borders, even with our sizable military, we can't beat THOSE odds unless our luck is in the absolute extreme. We are at the point where we would be willing to basically offer GS what they want for intervention... including becoming a "vassal state" as Togas put it
[18:37] *E_T* Arnie, we will need to make an Embassy with GS to get the RoP
[18:37] *Arnelos* we already have an embassy
[18:37] *opd* *opd* Are you saying that you're willing to forgo any chance of winning the game to see ND and GoW defeated?
[18:37] *opd* *Arnelos* we can certainly try to bleed away and waste as much of their GA's as possible, but in the end, our GA can't start unless we get a GL for the Sistine (and get lucky) or get Navigation
[18:37] *opd* *Arnelos* OPD - yes
[18:38] *opd* ok sorry about that
[18:39] *Arnelos* NYE needs the recap, keep posting quotes if you want
[18:39] *opd* I think thats it
[18:40] *nye* thanks
[18:40] *opd* should this happen it may be possible for RP to strike the killing blow to GoW and ND
[18:40] *Arnelos* *E_T* Tell all Arnie
[18:40] *Arnelos* *Arnelos* ok... ND has moved 28 military units either into our territory or into the jungle
[18:40] *Arnelos* *opd* I'd be amazed if you could get MSS
[18:40] *Arnelos* *opd* wow 28!!!!!
[18:40] *Arnelos* *Arnelos* given the size of militaries and that we are still "average" to ND, we figure this leaves a skeleton defense in ND's cities
[18:40] *Arnelos* *E_T* Arnie, it is a settler
[18:40] *opd* if that is something you'd like
[18:40] *Arnelos* *opd* what is the make up of the forces
[18:40] *Arnelos* *Arnelos* GoW has now 14 riders on our border, most of which were probably upgrades. This means that most of their money was spent upgrading horses to riders rather than spears to pikes... they probably have a small force of spears defending home. THey're probably counting on their GA funding more upgrades.
[18:41] *Arnelos* we'll see
[18:42] *Arnelos* I don't think that's as important as that the job gets done
[18:42] *Arnelos* we'll cross the bridge when and if we come to it
[18:43] *opd* ok as this is kinda important
[18:44] *opd* Other members of GS must be informed
[18:44] *Arnelos* that's fine
[18:44] *opd* also I gotta go to bed
[18:44] *Arnelos*
[18:44] *opd* So leave you with nye
[18:45] *Arnelos* ok, I've got to log the latest parts of this... my log currently only runs up to when E_T ducked out the last time
[18:45] *nye* oh oh. i am mid turn in isdg.
[18:46] *nye* i have to blast back to work to lock up. i can return between 9.30 and 10.30 or so
[18:46] *E_T* that's o.k., hopefully OPD can get a few more GS people in here
[18:46] *E_T* OPD, can you e-mail them to come here?
[18:46] *Arnelos* ok, log updated
[18:46] *opd* I emailed SR but I guess he's asleep
[18:47] *Arnelos* NYE - Togas should be online later
[18:47] *opd* will try Nbarclay
[18:47] *Arnelos* he's currently driving home from work
[18:47] *nye* better to reconvene a bit later
[18:48] *E_T* We will be here
[18:48] *nye* ok. i will return later
[18:48] *E_T* we aren't going to play our turn for a while atill
[18:48] *E_T* *still
[18:52] *opd* ok night night
[18:52] *Arnelos* cya opd
[18:53] *opd* arny can you play the mast save?
[18:53] * opd has quit IRC (Quit)
[18:54] *nye* i will come back later
Session Close: Thu Jul 17 18:54:23 2003

Session Start: Thu Jul 17 22:51:44 2003
Session Ident: #WWB
[22:51] * Now talking in #WWB
[22:51] * Topic is 'Notify us when you get here'
[22:51] * Set by E_T on Thu Jul 17 17:40:20
[22:51] *nye_too* here again
[22:58] *Arnelos* hey
[22:59] *nye_too* poly down for you too?
[22:59] *Arnelos* NukeWinter got booted
[22:59] *Arnelos* the rest of us are still there... but I told them to switch
[22:59] *Arnelos* I've been logged in here since the chat with OPD
[22:59] *nye_too* have any of us got back there?
[22:59] * Togas has joined #WWB
[23:00] *Arnelos* everyone's quitting the poly channel
[23:00] * dejon has joined #WWB
[23:00] * mrmitche1 has joined #WWB
[23:01] * MSS_Mowin has joined #WWB
[23:01] *Arnelos* power sagged again
[23:01] *Togas* not our night :/
[23:01] *Togas* should we expect any other GS members?
[23:01] *nye_too* no. not good luck
[23:01] *Arnelos* monsoon season only happens once a year here... it's coming now
[23:01] * MSS_Mowin is now known as mss_
[23:01] * NukWinter has joined #WWB
[23:02] *nye_too* we should have, if poly hadn't crashed
[23:02] *nye_too* i have sent email
[23:02] *mss_* its still up...
[23:02] *nye_too* hi mss
[23:02] *NukWinter* Poly is like a plane with a drunkad on it, it crasehs way too oftenly
[23:02] *Togas* we can begin, and other members can review chat.
[23:02] *nye_too* i am cut off from ploy
[23:02] *Togas* chatlog
[23:02] *nye_too* yes
[23:02] *mrmitche1* i can, i always log everything
[23:03] *mss_* good
[23:03] *Arnelos* the power just sagged 4 more times
[23:03] *Arnelos* as long as it doesn't go OUT...
[23:03] *mrmitche1* like dejon said, unplug your fridge! save poly! ;P
[23:03] *dejon* Arnelos - unplug your microwave too
[23:04] *mss_* turn off your ac
[23:04] *Arnelos* I live in a 4-person apartment and we only have power problems when there's a thunderstorm... I'm pretty sure it's the storm
[23:04] * mss_ nods
[23:05] *Togas* Arnelos, please begin.
[23:05] * mss_ looks at arni
[23:05] *Arnelos* NYE - I assume you've read the transcript. Is there anything you have to ask about all of this?
[23:06] *nye_too* well.
[23:06] *nye_too* it seems strange that a civ that has yet to fire a shot, so to speak, offers what has been offered
[23:06] * asleepath has joined #WWB
[23:06] *nye_too* hello, sleppy
[23:06] *nye_too* *sleepy
[23:07] *asleepath* hey
[23:07] *Arnelos* NYE - granted
[23:08] *nye_too* if all stayed equal, in territory, rp would be massive compared to gs in territory.
[23:08] *nye_too* after nd was taken to pieces
[23:08] *Arnelos* While this is true, even if GS is willing and able to help RP Team, ND will do considerable damage before you arrive
[23:09] *nye_too* that is true. we cannot be there quickly
[23:09] *nye_too* not quick enough, at any rate
[23:09] *Arnelos* so by the time you arrive... the chances of us competing in the winning of the game are relatively slim
[23:09] *Arnelos* We can certainly try to bleed ND and GoW, but we will lose
[23:10] *nye_too* i agree. that is likely
[23:10] *nye_too* btw. i have a couple of questions re the earlier log
[23:11] *Arnelos* go
[23:11] *nye_too* tech from lego was mentioned
[23:11] *nye_too* will they give you chivalry?
[23:11] * WhiteBand has joined #WWB
[23:11] *Arnelos* We do not know. The only tech we have thusfar discussed with them is Education
[23:11] *Arnelos* Chivalry we need far more, of course
[23:11] *Arnelos* but I wasn' in those negotiations
[23:11] *Arnelos* Togas?
[23:12] *Togas* To my knowledge we're still waiting to hear from them about such things.
[23:12] *nye_too* that would help. i am sure
[23:13] *Arnelos* unfortunately, it would not help as much as we would hope. We have yet to BUILD any knights, even if we should obtain the tech.
[23:14] *nye_too* unfortunately, we are bound for a number of turns before we can grant it to you
[23:14] *nye_too* ahh. not many horse, then?
[23:14] *Arnelos* the tech we most need is Engineering, which we believe ND has gained
[23:14] *Arnelos* We have a few horse, but not many
[23:15] *Arnelos* our forces were originally swords and spears... the idea being to stop an invader within the jungle and defend south of the river with spears and attack anything coming south with swords
[23:15] *Arnelos* some catapults
[23:15] *Arnelos* with jungle swallowing so many movement points and we having a road network, a spear/sword combo works
[23:16] * ruby_mase has joined #WWB
[23:16] *nye_too* are the number equal? or do you have a nuymerical advantage?
[23:16] *Arnelos* in the medieval age, we have no Chivalry, but we have Feudalism... 1 Pike + 1 MI = 70 shields = 1 knight... we might as well build pikes and MIs and we can use our road network while the jungle slows an opponent
[23:17] *nye_too* good point
[23:17] *Arnelos* that's part of what has happened, unfortunately for us, fortunate for anyone how attacks ND:
[23:17] *Togas* if we put our entire force against ND's entire force, we could beat them.
[23:17] *nye_too* but you need to be able to cross rivers quickly
[23:17] *Togas* however, our forces are split between GoW and ND
[23:17] *Arnelos* ND has sent almost their ENTIRE military, it would seem... Ansars, pikes, MIs, the whole thing
[23:17] *Arnelos* considering that we are still "average" to them, it MUST be most of their military
[23:18] *nye_too* one moment, looking at the map
[23:18] *Arnelos* yes, our main problem at the moment is the issue of 2 fronts
[23:19] *nye_too* i see
[23:19] *nye_too* where is the nd stack of doom?
[23:19] *Arnelos* Santiago #10
[23:20] *Arnelos* they can attack Zaragosa next turn, but not other cities until the turn after that
[23:20] *nye_too* not so good. is zaragoza secure?
[23:20] *nye_too* what about santiago?
[23:20] *Arnelos* our current plan calls for putting every available pikeman in the area into Zaragosa
[23:20] *Togas* we can secure it, but to do so we would have to sacrifice the other cities.
[23:21] *nye_too* santiago is a write off?
[23:21] *Togas* we have a plan in mind for santiago, but it's still being hashed out.
[23:21] *Togas* it is somewhat contingent upon our talks with you.
[23:22] * mss_ raises eyebrow
[23:22] *nye_too* alright.
[23:22] *Arnelos* part of the idea for our plan was to attempt to lure the ND army of Ansars into outstripping their many pikeman defenders... then we can use MI's to kill Ansars... but if the enemy is cautious and moves slowly, we can't
[23:23] *Arnelos* of course, if he moves slowly, that gives more time for aid to arrive
[23:23] *nye_too* true
[23:24] *nye_too* i am struggling to think of things we could do quickly
[23:24] *nye_too* i cannot think of many
[23:25] *nye_too* a question. assuming that it is possible to preserve RP
[23:26] *nye_too* what territory are you most wed to of Espana?
[23:26] *Arnelos* I believe Togas mentioned (and others agreed) that we are most wed to Pamplona (the capital) and the area of Madrid and south
[23:27] *nye_too* the coast?
[23:27] *mss_* current home??
[23:27] *Arnelos* I believe the argument was that if we lose Pamplona and Madrid for good, we're done for
[23:27] *Arnelos* of course, that may be inevitable... it depends
[23:27] *nye_too* i am wondering if it would be possible for us to help you make new homes north of zaragoza
[23:28] *nye_too* including pamplona
[23:28] *Arnelos* what exactly are you proposing?
[23:28] *Arnelos* we're open to suggestions
[23:28] *nye_too* looking at it, if we are to be able to help rp survive, and if we two are going to win,
[23:28] *nye_too* we are going to have to exterminate nd and gow
[23:29] *nye_too* or at least nd, and severly maul gow
[23:29] *nye_too* we will need bases from which to operate.
[23:29] *nye_too* preferably bases that are within our ability to supply from home without unduw delay
[23:30] *Arnelos* so you want a piece of the eastern coast of Bob?
[23:30] *nye_too* from there, we strike out through RP at the targets, and add ND territory to RP as we gain it
[23:30] *nye_too* that would be this scenario
[23:31] *Arnelos* I take it the idea is to reduce corruption and waste on both ends... the best territory for GS is eastern coast which is less corrupt to your capital... best territory for us is ND which is less corrupt to ours
[23:31] *mss_* it would be one of the fastest ways
[23:31] *nye_too* is there a roa 9 of new madrid?
[23:31] *Arnelos* lemme look
[23:31] *nye_too* yes. but also lines of communication to the home land
[23:32] * BigFree has joined #WWB
[23:32] *mss_* it also gives us ports to disembark in. that is worth a turn/ unit
[23:32] *Arnelos* yes, we figured that... the discussion on our end was that you would need a port on Bob to land at before railroads
[23:32] *nye_too* hello, BigFree
[23:33] * ruby_mase has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:33] *Arnelos* There is no road at Madrid #9
[23:33] * Togas- has joined #WWB
[23:33] *nye_too* damn
[23:34] *nye_too* could there be one, soon?
[23:34] *Arnelos* lemme see how long that would take...
[23:34] *Arnelos* with GoW's army pussyfooting about rather than attacking, we might actually finish one
[23:34] * Togas has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:34] *Arnelos* how many worker turns is that?
[23:35] *WhiteBand* i can tell you
[23:35] *nye_too* 3?
[23:35] *Arnelos* I don't have the worker calculator up
[23:35] *WhiteBand* how many workers and what type of tile?
[23:35] *nye_too* 1 to move
[23:35] *Arnelos* forest
[23:35] *nye_too* hill
[23:35] *Togas-* hill
[23:35] *Arnelos* ?
[23:35] * Togas- is now known as Togas
[23:35] *nye_too* 9 by the key pad. not work force
[23:35] *Arnelos* NYE - MAdrid #9 is forest
[23:35] *nye_too* madrid 2 by wf
[23:35] *mss_* ill bet you 12 turns for non-ind
[23:36] *WhiteBand* if it's a forest, it's 6 turns with 1 worker
[23:36] *Arnelos* oh... yeah, that's a hill
[23:36] *nye_too* no road there?
[23:36] *WhiteBand* same thing for hill
[23:36] *mss_* great
[23:36] *WhiteBand* 6 turns for 1 worker on a hill
[23:36] *mss_* 7 including move
[23:36] *Arnelos* ok... lemme check # of turns to get workers there...
[23:36] *WhiteBand* if we have 3 workers in the area, it can be done in 2 turns
[23:36] *nye_too* never mind
[23:36] *Arnelos* Togas - where did the 2 workers near GoW go this turn? the grasslands tile?
[23:36] *nye_too* that is too long.
[23:37] *nye_too* we would slove it another way
[23:37] *mss_* 2 turns?
[23:37] *Arnelos* NYE... the cows space is roaded, of course
[23:37] *nye_too* yes, i see that
[23:37] *nye_too* i am lookong for places to erect our crusader fortress
[23:37] *Arnelos* Bilbao is also roaded
[23:37] *nye_too* as a base to operate from
[23:37] *Arnelos* ah
[23:38] *Togas*
[23:38] *Arnelos* What specific tile did you have in mind?
[23:38] *nye_too* bilbao is vulnerable.
[23:38] *nye_too* might be two. one temp
[23:38] *Arnelos* true
[23:38] *Arnelos* ok
[23:38] *nye_too* new madrid 6 9 is the ideal site
[23:39] *mss_* I think so
[23:39] *nye_too* but forces there could not move past new madrid
[23:39] *Arnelos* ok, I see that
[23:39] *Arnelos* right
[23:39] *Arnelos* you have engineering?
[23:39] *nye_too* a temporary site at new madrid 3 3 gets us around that
[23:39] *mss_* 2 turns from monsoon
[23:39] *Arnelos* my thoughts exactly

[notyoueither]

cont.

[23:40] *nye_too* while an industrious worker bilds a road at madrid 9
[23:40] *nye_too* hmmm
[23:40] *nye_too* another thing
[23:40] *nye_too* have you thought that a city in gs hands might not be touched by nd or gow?
[23:41] *Togas* we have.
[23:41] *nye_too* that could be used as a block
[23:41] *nye_too* shut a front down
[23:41] *Togas* Bilbao in particular was at the top of our list.
[23:41] *Arnelos* Yes, in fact... we were thinking of giving you Bilbao
[23:41] *nye_too* it could be tried
[23:42] *nye_too* i am not positive gow would not take it anyway, but perhaps worth a try, if we proceed
[23:42] *nye_too* bibao also gets us close to nd cities.
[23:43] *Arnelos* btw... Bilbao will be linked by road to the rest of Spain in I believe 2 turns (would have been 1, but a worker move was messed up)
[23:43] *nye_too* it is an extra turn by sea
[23:44] *Arnelos* of course, we now plan to retreat said workers... they may build a road near Madrid if that would help
[23:44] *nye_too* they will move without building road?
[23:44] *Togas* they're going to finish the final tile in 2 turns
[23:44] *nye_too* that would prolly be advisable, by the shots posted
[23:44] *Arnelos* I'm not entirely sure of their present position
[23:44] *Arnelos* Togas - they're on the grasslands tile?
[23:44] *Togas* 9 of Toledo
[23:44] *Arnelos* ok
[23:45] *Arnelos* that's what I thought
[23:45] *nye_too* long term.
[23:45] *Arnelos* there's still a tile of jungle stopping an immediately GoW rush down there, then
[23:45] *nye_too* would you trade land in the east and south for the north and west?
[23:45] *nye_too* brb
[23:46] *Togas* If that is what is necessary, we would do it.
[23:46] * ruby_mase has joined #WWB
[23:47] *nye_too* there would have to be reason for gs to make such a move. reasons that make sense to the econ crowd
[23:47] *nye_too* there would be one other major objection
[23:48] *nye_too* two actually
[23:49] *nye_too* one would be, how can this game stay fun for RP so that you have reason to abide by what we agree to
[23:49] *nye_too* the term 'vassal' is loaded
[23:49] *Arnelos* granted
[23:49] *nye_too* we would certainly not like to press rp into situations of resentment
[23:49] *dejon* The answer is in our name - roleplay
[23:49] *nye_too* it would have to be fun
[23:50] *Arnelos* NYE - 2 reasons
[23:50] *nye_too* two. rumours of deals and back room whispers
[23:50] *Arnelos* 1 - It is more fun for our team to roleplay our new situation, one which would perhaps even be less stressful.
[23:50] *nye_too* it is difficult for many on gs to trust. any civ
[23:50] *nye_too* good point, arne
[23:51] *Arnelos* 2 - There seems to be a strong desire on the part of the team at this point to join with a winning team, either you or Lego, and help them toward victory. It is more cooperative, which is fun, and provides an avenue for survival of our community.
[23:51] * OctavianX has joined #WWB
[23:51] *nye_too* hello, octavian
[23:51] *OctavianX* Hello
[23:51] * mss_ waves at octavian
[23:52] * dejon waves hello to fellow Monty member
[23:52] *nye_too* octavian joined gs recently, btw
[23:52] *OctavianX* I'm always late to these things...
[23:52] *Arnelos* really?
[23:52] *Arnelos* interesting
[23:52] *Arnelos* welcome, Octavian
[23:52] *OctavianX* Greetings...
[23:52] *mss_* he is also one of your ambassadores, I believe
[23:52] * OctavianX doesn't remember that...
[23:53] *nye_too* mss has been away for a bit
[23:53] *mss_* thats ok
[23:53] *mss_* I have been
[23:53] *Togas* The nation of Spain would beseech upon the great nation of the Storm to act as our guardian and save our people. In exchange for such protection, we would be beholden to you, as a Vassal state. We would share in your greatness to some degree, receive your protection, and retain our freedom, culture, and livlihood.
[23:53] *mss_* lost
[23:53] *Arnelos* (chuckle) I've been away for a bit, too ;p
[23:53] *OctavianX* I know the feeling...
[23:53] *Togas* and many of our lords and noble would receive new land grants to compensate their losses.
[23:53] *nye_too* we will consider this well, Togas
[23:53] *mss_* we will
[23:54] *dejon* and our retired commanders may wish to travel the GS lands detailed in the wonderful guide published recently
[23:55] *nye_too* all are wlecome now
[23:55] *Togas* And if trust is an issue between us, we would submit to any reasonable terms that ensured that the trust would not be broken.
[23:55] *nye_too* *welcome
[23:55] *nye_too* ok togas.
[23:55] *mss_* thank you for offering togas
[23:56] *nye_too* I do not want to press on this issue. it could be a sore point
[23:56] *nye_too* but the question will come up of past rp diplomacy
[23:56] *Togas* The offering is made by myself, and by the Lords of Spain.
[23:56] *OctavianX* true...
[23:56] *Togas* We will do whatever it takes to right any wrongs between us that existed in the past.
[23:57] *mss_* you seem honorable in spirit and we will try to see it as such
[23:57] *Togas* thank you.
[23:57] *nye_too* i know some will want to know asap, just what the heck did go on with vox?
[23:57] *Arnelos* I think our team is most focused right now on saving the community itself and since victory in a highly competitive environment is no longer plausible, to instead seek partnership with others in a cooperative environment.
[23:57] *Togas* Upon the agreement being formalized, we will "declassify" all of our documents on the Vox/GS war.
[23:58] *nye_too* that is fair
[23:58] *Togas* Spain has a very rich community of players with a long history and a great common culture that we want to preserve.
[23:59] *nye_too* alright. is there anything else?
[23:59] *Togas* We have the save right now. We intend on playing it at the 11th hour.
[23:59] *mss_* We will give this matyter much thought
[23:59] *Arnelos* and as long as we are afforded with some level of responsibility in helping in this new partnership, though the junior member, it provides something for the team to *do*
[23:59] *Togas* Which should be around 1-2pm PST tomorrow.
[00:00] *Togas* we know that it isn't much time, but the sooner we hear from you, the sooner we can prepare.
[00:00] *nye_too* alright
[00:00] *Arnelos* Afterall... in effect, we would be essentially the second GS Forbidden Palace
[00:00] *nye_too* i fear though, that gs will not ratify this in less than a day
[00:00] *mss_* This is a 2-3 day discussion
[00:00] * dejon muses that the 'Poly outages could be blamed for a slight delay, if truly necessary
[00:01] *Togas* undestood, would it be possible to let us know about Bilbao sometime tomorrow?
[00:01] *nye_too* yes. that could be possible
[00:01] *nye_too* when did you get the save?
[00:01] *mss_* hell, take a penalty and grab a day
[00:01] *Arnelos* yeah... at this point, I'm not seeing why not
[00:01] *Arnelos* don't we have a lot of hours stored?
[00:01] *nye_too* i have two questions actually
[00:02] *Arnelos* NYE - go
[00:02] *nye_too* 1. do you want to make this relationship public?
[00:02] *Togas* we just might sit on it and blame poly, we've only had 4-5 hours of time to post.
[00:02] *mss_* exactly
[00:02] *nye_too* is that desirable for your rp?
[00:02] *Arnelos* NYE - That depends upon the tactics of the situation
[00:02] *Togas* I believe that it will eventually be made public
[00:02] *Togas* but there's no rush.
[00:02] *nye_too* yes, but you would wait for our blessing?
[00:03] *Togas* we certainly will.
[00:03] *Arnelos* It will eventually be made public, no doubt. However, in the short run, would it be more or less advantageous for it to be public before any GS help arrives?
[00:03] *nye_too* 2. how many turns can you hold out before you start crumbling in critical places?
[00:03] *Arnelos* I think it would be more advantageous for it to remain secret until GS is ready to have it made public
[00:03] *Togas* it all depends on what ND does.
[00:03] *Arnelos* dejon?
[00:04] *dejon* Hmm, I can't mention some aspects as yet, can I?
[00:04] *Togas* go ahead.
[00:05] *dejon* We are considering a 'tactic' that may grant us a few turns, but it is not yet confirmed.
[00:06] *dejon* If it doesn't go ahead, the pessimistic numbers have ND Ansars taking Pamplona in maybe 5 turns.
[00:06] *nye_too* that is good news
[00:06] *nye_too* to us
[00:06] *nye_too* some of us feared quicker
[00:07] *dejon* quicker is possible, i suppose, but only with *very* bad luck.
[00:07] *nye_too* alright
[00:07] *Arnelos* NYE - if they run straight for Pamplona, we can pick off their Ansars with MI's... they have to be more methodical
[00:07] *nye_too* ok
[00:08] *dejon* yeah, they'd have to beeline and beat off all counter attacks against odds
[00:08] *nye_too* alright then. is there anything else?
[00:08] *dejon* GoW will definitely take Bilbao next turn
[00:08] *nye_too* so you either give it or rubble it
[00:09] *dejon* it will auto-raze
[00:09] *nye_too* but they get gold
[00:09] *dejon* true
[00:09] *dejon* we'd rather gift it and see
[00:09] *nye_too* ok. that makes sense
[00:10] *dejon* The east defense forces and Toledo should fare better than the west
[00:10] *nye_too* some good news then. they can hold out indefinetly?
[00:11] * Togas looks to Dejon.
[00:11] *dejon* Depends on GoW mtn/jungle manuevers - possibly, but they'd have to make sub-optimal choices
[00:11] *nye_too* ok
[00:12] *Arnelos* GoW has not attacked yet and now that they've moved a turn AWAY from Toledo, it will take them time to get down there
[00:12] *dejon* which they already did once, and backed out of
[00:12] *Arnelos* it will take 2 turns for GoW to be in striking distance of Toledo
[00:12] *nye_too* they moved away? since the screen shots?
[00:12] *Arnelos* if they go that way
[00:12] *Arnelos* yes
[00:12] *Arnelos* they moved around toward Bilbao/north
[00:12] *nye_too* i can see why you think gow will back stab nd
[00:13] *dejon* yes
[00:13] *Arnelos* the thing is... last turn they were 1 turn from Mavdad... they are now 4 tiles (2 turns)
[00:13] *dejon* I think they simply want a victorious battle, against anyone.
[00:13] *nye_too* mavdad doesnot matter that much, does it?
[00:13] *mss_* very suspicious
[00:13] *Arnelos* We think they may indeed backstab ND, it's what we've thought all along, but we figure they're they want to make sure RP is weakened first
[00:14] *nye_too* if they back stab, what of these proceedings?
[00:15] *Togas* if we sign this agreement, then it's done. We stick to it regardless.
[00:15] *nye_too* ok
[00:15] *dejon* Still valid, I think - ND is the greater threat
[00:15] *dejon* what Togas said
[00:15] *Arnelos* ND is indeed the much greater threat
[00:15] *Togas* We know there's a chance that things could turn around next turn, but the ultimate risk is too great.
[00:15] *Arnelos* especially with half our army up pussyfooting about with GoW rather than defending Cow Valley
[00:16] *dejon* We rather ensure our survival than roll the dice, as it were
[00:16] * Togas nods.
[00:19] *dejon* The Spanish Commander has one request
[00:19] *nye_too* yes?
[00:19] *BigFree* 4Back
[00:19] *dejon* We would like to be the one to eliminate GoW from the game, when it comes to that point.
[00:19] *nye_too* heheh. that could be done
[00:20] *nye_too* do you folks like wind?
[00:20] *dejon* Thank you.
[00:20] *dejon* I like a blustery day, yes.
[00:21] *Togas*
[00:21] *nye_too* there tends to be a bit of it that follows us around
[00:21] *nye_too* we have... people who assure it
[00:21] *dejon*
[00:22] *mss_* Do you think that they are pussyfooting to "honor" their last few turns
[00:22] *Arnelos* MSS - I *seriously* doubt it
[00:22] *mss_* K
[00:22] *Togas* IMO, they saw the stack we placed on the mtn in their path and decided to try and outflank us.
[00:23] *mss_* nod
[00:23] *Arnelos* We've *long* suspected that GoW wanted ND to invade us so that GoW could then backstab ND. They've only gone this far into the attack in order to ensure the ND invasion actually happens
[00:23] *dejon* The King and I were on the mtn - we frightened them off.
[00:23] *Togas*
[00:23] *mss_* It happens
[00:23] *Arnelos* this is also true... they saw our stack of pikemen and MI's on the mountain while they were down in the jungle... a direct assault would have been folly
[00:24] *mss_* nod
[00:26] *dejon* Don't suppose this arrangement could somehow grant *our* galleys extra movement, eh?
[00:26] *dejon* Too bad you can't share wonder-effects
[00:26] *mss_* Look, this is a lot to hash out. GS needs to discuss this.
[00:26] *mss_* hehe'
[00:26] *dejon* of course
[00:26] *nye_too* yes. and poly is back up.
[00:27] *nye_too* i sugest we break for now.
[00:27] *mss_* I need to make like a baby and head out
[00:27] *nye_too* not many moments to lose
[00:27] *mss_* I do not have a log of this. Arne, do you?
[00:27] *nye_too* i have a log
[00:27] *dejon* I have one
[00:28] *mss_* good. Can you post it then?
[00:28] *Arnelos* I can make a log, yes
[00:28] *nye_too* i will post logs
[00:28] *Arnelos* I will post logs as well
[00:28] *mss_* I will get the thread going
[00:28] *nye_too* ok. i will say g'night
[00:28] * mss_ is now known as mss_windi
[00:29] *Arnelos* NYE - wait a moment...
[00:29] *dejon* Nice chatting to the Storm.
[00:29] *Arnelos* NYE - should we draw up a formal treaty for this?
[00:29] *mss_windi* nice and calm
[00:29] *nye_too* you could work on that, arne. we will be discussing
[00:29] *Arnelos* ok
[00:29] *nye_too* just remember, that gs prefers plain language.
[00:29] *Arnelos* indeed
[00:29] *mss_windi* this deservres it
[00:30] *Arnelos* that's why Togas would probably make *me* write it
[00:30] *nye_too* i will be on for a bit. if something comes up, ring me up
[00:30] *nye_too*
[00:30] *nye_too* gotta go. the american posters are losing time on seeing this material
Session Close: Fri Jul 18 00:30:56 2003

[notyoueither]

Received from Arnelos.

Treaty of Permanent Partnership Between the Gathering Storm and Spain

Purpose
The purpose of this treaty is to affirm the creation of a permanent partnership between the nations of the Gathering Storm and Spain, the purpose of which is to ensure the security and prosperity of both nations for all time to come. The member nations shall seek to cooperate with one another in the future to ensure joint success in the competition of the nations through a victory on the part of the Gathering Storm and prosperity for Spain.

Article I - Non-Aggression

1. Neither nation shall ever attack the other.

2. Neither nation shall ever declare war upon the other.

Article II - Sharing of Luxuries

1. The partner nations shall share all available luxuries with one another unless Clause 2 or 3 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the two nations, they may decide to forgo one of their nations having a luxury in order to sell it to a foreign power.

3. If only one source of a luxury should exist between the partner nations, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide what nation that luxury shall go to.

Article III - Partnership in Technological Research

1. The partner nations shall share all technologies in their possession with the other unless Clause 2 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the partner nations, they may decide to forgo sharing a given technology with one or the other nation.

3. Cooperative research goals shall be discussed between the partners and if any conflicts exist, they shall be resolved by a decision by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

Article IV - Wonders of the World

1. The partners shall inform each other of what wonders of the world they are planning to construct.

2. If any conflict exists in plans by the partners to construct wonders of the world, the nation of the Gathering Storm may make a decision on what wonders it will construct that the nation of Spain will not.

Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance

1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner.

2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

3. If the nation of the Gathering Storm decides to declare war upon a foreign power, the nation of Spain shall do so as well if this is requested by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

4. If the partners jointly agree, the nation of Spain may unilaterally declare war upon a foreign power that has not invaded its territory.

5. The partners shall cooperate in all military matters during any war by sharing information about troop positions, intelligence about the enemy, and plans.

6. For any territory conquered from a foreign power in war, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide to which partner the territory shall eventually be awarded and when it shall.

Article VI - Exchange of Territory

1. Areas along the Eastern shore of the continent Bob in Spanish possession which the nation of the Gathering Storm wishes shall be transferred from Spanish possession to the possession of the Gathering Storm.

2. Spain shall keep its lands in Cow Valley and the rest of Western Spain.

3. Spain shall be awarded any lands claimed by the Partnership through conquests in Neu Demogyptica with the exception of any Neu Demogyptican lands along the Eastern coast of the continent Bob which the nation of the Gathering Storm wishes to claim.

4. The details of the territorial exchanges in Clauses 1 through 3 shall be worked out by the partners and jointly agreed upon at a time determined by the nation of the Gathering Storm. The partners swear upon their honor that they shall do their best to work out a mutually acceptable exchange by the above guidelines and then execute the exchange.

5. The partners may exchange additional territory by mutual agreement at any point in the future and such agreements may include the exchanging of lands with nations not a party to this partnership at the mutual agreement of both partners.


NOTES:

* note: Should there be a clause in Article III about contributing research to the partnership and cases where the slider may be moved to 0% science because of a need for cash, etc.? Or can we just trust each other to work that out cooperatively? It's up to you.

* note: Should there be an article about money and gifts/loans or can we just handle that as situations arise and on the basis of mutual trust and cooperation? Also up to you.

I did my best to try to keep the language clear and unambiguous, but there are a lot of bases to cover with such a sweeping agreement.

Along those lines, I have the nagging feeling that although I've tried to cover all of the bases, there might be something I've left out of this agreement that could come back and be a source of disagreement between the partners. I've done my best to attempt to lay down a way for all such things to be resolved, but there might be some things I'm forgetting. If so, my hope is that we can cooperatively decide what to do about them as they are encountered.

The ultimate goal of this agreement is to establish cooperation between our teams as a complete replacement for the antagonism that exists in general between all teams in this game. We are indeed serious about this being a binding agreement for the rest of the game, essentially a "locked alliance".

Let me know what you think of it and send back any suggestions or requested edits.

Thanks.

- Arnelos

[notyoueither]

Chat with Arnelos regarding the treaty.

Session Start: Sat Jul 19 17:11:48 2003
Session Ident: Arnelos
[17:11] Session Ident: Arnelos (~Arnelos@ip68-0-179-26.tc.ph.cox.net)
[17:11] *Arnelos* NYE
[17:11] *notyoueither* hi
[17:12] *Arnelos* there is one small issue that seems to have cropped up among our roleplay camp (we have a sizable one) concerning hte treaty
[17:12] *notyoueither* shoot
[17:13] *Arnelos* they have a concern, being roleplayers, that we're gifting "catholic" lands into the hands of a "non-christian" civ... Pope Calixtus I (History Guy) is particularly upset about this... perhaps we could asauge them
[17:13] *Arnelos* with something completely meaningless in-game
[17:13] *notyoueither* hmmm, anything in mind?
[17:14] *Arnelos* two things: GS "converts" and you get to have several cardinals that can vote on the next pope or, at the least, those lands "remain catholic, respecting local cultural blah, blah, blah"
[17:14] *Arnelos* History Guy is aiming for the former, but he and the other roleplayers might settle for the latter
[17:14] *notyoueither* i think that the storm can respect the cuctoms of the local populous
[17:15] *Arnelos* since it's completely meaningless in game and it placates our roleplayers, I'd think it's possible
[17:15] *notyoueither* the church is valued of course, to maintain order and to supply sucor to the masses during these dark times
[17:16] *notyoueither* btw, we are leaning towards leaving as much of th south in rp hands as possible, and take more in the north
[17:16] *Arnelos* that makes more sense corruption-wise
[17:16] *notyoueither* we understand the importance of the land to your people
[17:17] *notyoueither* well, we could have put a govt centre down in the south, or the north
[17:17] *notyoueither* the north makes more sense
[17:17] *Arnelos* personally, I'd just want to decide the boundaries of the lands based upon corruption to various capitals... may even placate your "economics" crowd
[17:17] *notyoueither* that makes sense
[17:17] *Arnelos* my personal recommendation is that you put your FP somewhere near where Bilbao currently is and stretch your lands north along the East
[17:17] *notyoueither* what is being discussed is that we occupy toledo to defend it, and free up your entire army for pamplona-zaragoza
[17:18] *notyoueither* we would return toledo when the danger is past
[17:18] *Arnelos* ah
[17:18] *notyoueither* we would need nm for a turn or two, to speed our troops to the front
[17:18] *notyoueither* then it is better you have it, unless toledo falls
[17:19] *notyoueither* which i doubt it will
[17:19] *Arnelos* yeah, we'll see
[17:19] *notyoueither* if we can get there quickly
[17:19] *notyoueither* 16 or 18 combat units on the way
[17:20] *Arnelos* that's quite a sum
[17:20] *notyoueither* first wave
[17:26] *Arnelos* I think we just won over History Guy hew: ... that will help with the roleplay crowd.
[17:28] *notyoueither* very good
[17:30] *notyoueither* arne, can we chat this evening? about the treaty?
[17:30] *ArnIDLE* yes
[17:30] *ArnIDLE* but only between now and ~7 p.m. my time
[17:30] *ArnIDLE* so in the next few hours
[17:30] *notyoueither* cool. maybe after the strat chat breaks up
[17:30] *ArnIDLE* I have to be out of here by then
[17:30] *notyoueither* oh. ok
[17:30] *ArnIDLE* *IF* it breaks up by then
[17:33] *notyoueither* i will nip out soon.
[17:49] *notyoueither* ok, arne
[17:50] *ArnIDLE* 4BACK (for now)
[17:51] *notyoueither* ok.
[17:51] *notyoueither* the treaty.
[17:51] *notyoueither* 1st issue
[17:51] *notyoueither* most of the clauses would have to be subject to other agreements with other civs
[17:51] *notyoueither* tech, for instance
[17:51] *notyoueither* if we trade for a tech with a nt clause
[17:52] *Arnelos* true
[17:52] *notyoueither* the nap would never be subject to
[17:52] *Arnelos* I suppose that can be added
[17:52] *notyoueither* ok
[17:53] *notyoueither* 2nd issue
[17:53] *Arnelos* I didn't even think about that... knew there were things I was overlooking
[17:53] *notyoueither* would rp rather keep land in the south and give up land from nd?
[17:53] *Arnelos* That's what it sounds like most of the team is arguing
[17:53] *notyoueither* the north and midlands of nd
[17:53] *notyoueither* they are for it?
[17:54] *notyoueither* or they are arguing over it?
[17:54] *Arnelos* it's one of those things where Togas and I are agreeable either way, but most of the REST of the team seems rather partial to our current lands
[17:54] *notyoueither* we understand that. it is perfectly reasonable
[17:54] *notyoueither* i knew it would be an issue after i thought about it for a short bit
[17:55] *Arnelos* the way our team works is that we seem to have over a long time formed a "game-oriented" group that roleplays, primarily those in leadership positions and we have a strictly roleplay-oriented group.
[17:56] *notyoueither* understood
[17:56] *notyoueither* we want a partner, more than a servant
[17:56] *Arnelos* the landswap was an automatic sell to the gameplay-oriented people, not so much for the rpers
[17:56] *Arnelos* yes
[17:56] * notyoueither nods
[17:57] *notyoueither* we would seek to maintain coastal outposts, and return other cities, like toledo when the need for us to defend it passes
[17:59] *notyoueither* long run, i think the only important position would be nm 6 9
[17:59] *notyoueither* and a patch of jungle 9 9 9 9 of nm
[18:00] *notyoueither* brb
[18:00] *Arnelos* ok
[18:00] *Arnelos* Togas just came back on... but he keeps losing his connection. We'll keep chatting and I'll relay it to Togas with logs
[18:01] *notyoueither* ok
[18:02] *notyoueither* so. to be clear. is it likely that rp would want to preserve historic lands in exchange for nd lands.
[18:02] *notyoueither* ?
[18:02] *Arnelos* yes
[18:02] *notyoueither* cool
[18:03] *notyoueither* 3rd issue
[18:03] *notyoueither* confidentiality
[18:03] *Arnelos* (another thing I forgot to write in)
[18:03] *Arnelos* I knew I was forgetting stuff
[18:03] *notyoueither* we would like the treaty to be kept under wraps until gs agrees to make it's existance known
[18:03] *Arnelos* yeah, that was the original discussion
[18:04] *notyoueither* and then, that it's extent would still remain under wraps
[18:04] *Arnelos* correct
[18:04] *notyoueither* great
[18:04] *Arnelos* funny thing about that... you should see the post I wrote in the RP forum telling people to do just that
[18:04] *notyoueither* heheh
[18:04] *Arnelos* because it's critical to our own security that ND and GoW not realize what's up until later
[18:04] *Arnelos* especially Lego
[18:04] *notyoueither* i have to fetch something from our forum
[18:05] *notyoueither* that is very true. we do not want a 3 way with lego joining the bad guys
[18:06] *Arnelos* well, and Lego, with all of the heart they have for us, is being magnanimous enough to send us 150 gold to help defeat ND and GoW. It's pocketchange, but we won't turn it down.
[18:08] *Arnelos* as dejon already told you... Lego has a non-interference agreement with ND and GoW which they signed several turns back.
[18:08] *Arnelos* the agreement is basically that Lego is not allowed to put a single unit on Bob and ND and GoW are not allowed to put a single unit on Legos
[18:09] *Arnelos* they can't accept cities, either
[18:09] *notyoueither* but, nd could void the treaty
[18:09] *notyoueither* with lego agreeing
[18:09] *Arnelos* something like that
[18:10] *notyoueither* 4th issue. Posted by Aeson.
[18:10] *notyoueither* 'Also I would prefer it if the clause to include something along the lines of "Either team may allow the other to forgo declaring war if it serves the alliance". It may serve us better if RP doesn't have to declare war with Lego in the future, and thus can be our go between (trading, investigating cities, ect.)... situations like that.'
[18:10] *Arnelos* agreed
[18:10] *notyoueither* ok
[18:10] *Arnelos* in fact... there's something I'm willing to spill the beans on
[18:10] *Arnelos* We've had an agreement with Lego since the start of the game
[18:11] *Arnelos* Lego is not allowed to invade RP Team until I bleieve 1000 A.D.
[18:11] *Arnelos* not that they would
[18:11] *notyoueither* that is very good
[18:11] *notyoueither* it could keep them out of the war for longer
[18:11] *Arnelos* they are also responsible for giving us technologies at discount... though we note that ZargonX hasn't been as good about upholding that part of the treaty as Nimitz and Spiffor were with vondrack
[18:12] *notyoueither* hmmm.
[18:12] *notyoueither* any chance they will give you chivalry?
[18:12] *Arnelos* they are bound by the nt clause with GoW
[18:12] *Arnelos* same as you
[18:12] *notyoueither* ok
[18:12] *Arnelos* Education is the tech we were somewhat miffed they didn't trade us
[18:13] *Arnelos* but they did recently give us 2 techs for FREE, so we didn't complain about Education, just politely asked them for an offer
[18:13] *Arnelos* of course, the 2 techs for free was in return for our promise not to build Michaelangelo's, I believe
[18:13] *Arnelos* they REALLY REALLY want it, not having luxuries
[18:14] *notyoueither* yes. we are aware of that one
[18:14] *notyoueither* 5th issue. Posted by Arrian
[18:14] *notyoueither* 'The rest of it looks good, although I'd amend clause 2 of section 1 (neither nation shall even declare war on the other) to include the possibility of a DoW being necessary for cooperative purposes - such as maybe exchanging some cataputs or something along those lines.
[18:14] *Arnelos* yes, that one has been discussed in the milOps channel, I see
[18:15] *Arnelos* agreed on that
[18:15] *Arnelos* it just never occured to me because I didn't know about that little trick
[18:15] *notyoueither* heh
[18:16] *notyoueither* Article VI
[18:17] *notyoueither* how do we rework this?
[18:17] *Arnelos* lemme look at the treaty
[18:17] *Arnelos* ah, exchange of territory
[18:17] *Arnelos* well... what exactly did you have in mind as the new demarkations?
[18:18] *notyoueither* ok. we specify that certain lands of Spain be trasferred to GS for protection during the war.
[18:18] *notyoueither* All but Bilbao to be returned to Spain
[18:19] *notyoueither* unless you guys really want Bilbao back.
[18:19] *Arnelos* that only covers the most southern regions of Bob
[18:19] *Arnelos* we don't need Bilbao
[18:19] *Arnelos* it's a good port for you guys to use if it survives (which it may not)
[18:20] *notyoueither* we would have rights to build and keep ports from nm 3 3 and north of there
[18:20] *notyoueither* neither of us would accept a flip, and would return any cities which did flip
[18:21] *notyoueither* (if we don;t have a choice)
[18:21] *Arnelos* got it
[18:21] *notyoueither* Marlowa
[18:21] *notyoueither* Arneblanca
[18:22] *notyoueither* Neu Theban
[18:22] *notyoueither* Trippolis
[18:22] *notyoueither* Mavdad
[18:22] *notyoueither* their environs, and land south of them are to be granted to the Nobles of Spain
[18:23] *notyoueither* that extends Spain up to the ND mountains
[18:23] *Arnelos* ok, and to GS?
[18:24] *notyoueither* most of the north
[18:24] *notyoueither* we have our eye on a govt centre
[18:24] *notyoueither* maybe some other bits and pieces could be swapped back and forth
[18:24] *Arnelos* build your FP around where Lux and ND had their contesting cities?
[18:25] *notyoueither* near there
[18:25] *notyoueither* would need two things
[18:25] *notyoueither* victory
[18:25] *notyoueither* and a gkl
[18:25] *notyoueither* *gl
[18:26] *Arnelos* you just might get a GL defending us... there will certainly be enough die rolling
[18:26] *notyoueither* what we are hoping, arnelos, is that Espana never has reason to regret this treaty.
[18:26] *Arnelos* right
[18:26] *Arnelos* from the looks of it, we won't
[18:26] *notyoueither* i hope so.
[18:27] *notyoueither* i have had my differences with togas in the past, but I hope that is the past.
[18:27] *Arnelos* with Togas, seemingly it is
[18:27] *notyoueither*
[18:27] *Arnelos* he seems to be fully behind this
[18:27] *notyoueither* is there someone else mad at me?
[18:28] *Arnelos* not at you
[18:28] *notyoueither* at gs?
[18:28] *Arnelos* as I said, some of the RP'ers have wounded prides at the moment due to the ND and GS invasions
[18:28] *Arnelos* I mean GoW
[18:28] *notyoueither* ahh. yes. np
[18:28] *Arnelos* handing over land to GS was something they didn't want to do... there are 1-3 people who'd rather just go the way of Lux
[18:29] *Arnelos* History Guy was one of them, but he seems to have been won over
[18:29] *notyoueither*
[18:29] *Arnelos* mrmitchell and lzpst are the others, I think
[18:29] *notyoueither* hopefully, we can put them at ease
[18:29] *Arnelos* MrWIA is also unhappy, but this is the first time he's even posted in the RP forum in months (perhaps longer than me) But he's just upset we even signed an MPP with GoW
[18:30] *notyoueither* haha
[18:30] *Arnelos* he certainly has nothing against GS as far as I can tell
[18:32] *notyoueither* OK. DeepO's comments
[18:32] *notyoueither* Article VII
[18:32] *notyoueither* is missing...
[18:32] *notyoueither* we need some points on agreements with other nations as well, and even on proposals from / to other nations. E.g. we can't have RP signing a MPP with Vox, if we want to invade them later on. Further, we can't have RP sell techs if we want to kepe them secret. Stuff like that.
[18:32] *Arnelos* I see
[18:33] *Arnelos* should then all agreements with other civs be mutual agreement?
[18:33] *Arnelos* or only certain types?
[18:33] *notyoueither* dont know
[18:34] *notyoueither* tech can only be traded with other civs with the approval of GS?
[18:34] *notyoueither* we will be researching most of it
[18:34] *Arnelos* true
[18:34] *Arnelos* I think that was already covered in the techsharing area, though
[18:34] *Arnelos* lemme check
[18:35] *Arnelos* oh... I took that part out
[18:35] *Arnelos* because I wasn't sure how to word it
[18:35] *Arnelos* was that in the notes?
[18:35] *Arnelos* no, it's not
[18:35] *Arnelos* odd
[18:35] *notyoueither* yeah
[18:35] *notyoueither* what about mpps and naps?
[18:35] *Arnelos* well, I was thinking about adding a clause whereby whoever originally researched a tech would have control over who it was traded to
[18:36] *Arnelos* or at least veto
[18:36] *Arnelos* MPPs and NAPs... would those be by mutual agreement?
[18:36] *notyoueither* i would like to. not sure if gs would accept it though
[18:37] *notyoueither* can rp live with a gs veto on nap's and mpp's?
[18:37] *Arnelos* yes
[18:37] *notyoueither* we may be planning a war, and not want entanglements.
[18:37] *Arnelos* yeah, that would be consistent with other areas of the treat
[18:37] *Arnelos* *treaty
[18:37] *notyoueither* ok. btw, i will leave you to write these things in. so that you guys are happy with it.
[18:38] *Arnelos* np
[18:38] *notyoueither* we have been pleased with your writting style
[18:38] *Arnelos* probably not until much later this evening
[18:38] *notyoueither* i might veer towards legalese
[18:38] *Arnelos* as I mentioned in the notes, I've been trying to make it as clear and unambigous as possible... but cover all the bases... which inevitably make it look "legalise"
[18:39] *notyoueither* you are doing a fine job of it
[18:39] *Arnelos* I happen to be of the opinion that making it vague would only cause arguments down the line over interpretation
[18:39] *Arnelos* and that's something I'd rather we avoided
[18:39] *notyoueither* re tech, could rp live with a gs veto on trades?
[18:39] *Arnelos* probably
[18:39] *notyoueither* agreed on the avoiding arguments
[18:39] *Arnelos* I'll add it and see what RP thinks

[notyoueither]

cont.

[18:40] *notyoueither* ok
[18:40] *notyoueither* back to Article VII
[18:40] *notyoueither* Some paragraph on that we can't foresee all situations, and in case discussion occurs on some point not covered here, both will do their best to find a mutual beneficial solution, with GS having end-responsibility
[18:40] *Arnelos* oh, about the notes... any mention of the money concerns I raised or is it better to just leave that out?
[18:41] *Arnelos* ok, sounds workable on article VII
[18:41] *notyoueither* ok
[18:42] *notyoueither* other things will come with time, trust, and friendship
[18:42] *Arnelos* true
[18:42] *Arnelos* I think my original thought was that what you just suggested as a paragraph in Article VII is implied, but it wouldn't hurt to state it
[18:43] *notyoueither* well, about note 1
[18:43] *notyoueither* it is difficult to put words together that require certain things without humiliation for one of us
[18:44] *Arnelos* true enough
[18:44] *Arnelos* I figure a number of these things can be worked out seperately... my thought is that we only put into the permanent treaty rules we want to be... well... permanent
[18:44] *notyoueither* i think clause 3 of tech is about as direct as we need
[18:44] *notyoueither* agreed
[18:45] *notyoueither* i read clause 3 that gs directs research, after discussion
[18:45] *Arnelos* exactly
[18:45] *notyoueither* in practice, it will often be us saying we can get x and y, best to shoot for z
[18:46] *Arnelos* something like that
[18:46] *notyoueither* * note: Should there be an article about money and gifts/loans or can we just handle that as situations arise and on the basis of mutual trust and cooperation? Also up to you.
[18:46] *notyoueither* i think that we should work back and forth as the game goes on
[18:46] *Arnelos* right
[18:47] *notyoueither* right now, you need gold for rushes, but we need it for knights
[18:47] *notyoueither* it is a turn by turn decision of what does most for the 'union'
[18:48] *Arnelos* which can be decided by the partners together, ok that works - no need for it to be in the agreement, which was my instinct. I just included it in the notes in the event that was a concern.
[18:48] *Arnelos* because I figured someone might raise it
[18:48] *notyoueither* ok
[18:49] *Arnelos* btw... I was working on something of a theme for our avatars that some of you guys might be interested in (should avatars ever come back...)
[18:49] *notyoueither* yes?
[18:50] *Arnelos* I've made a rather nice set of King Theoden avatars for Togas... working on other Rohirrim avatars for other RP people
[18:51] *notyoueither* Rohirrim?
[18:51] *Arnelos* if you guys do indeed show up and this thing blows wide open, related temporary avatars might be cute. Just a propaganda thing I was cooking
[18:51] *Arnelos* Lord of the Rings
[18:51] *notyoueither* ohhhhh. that would be wonderful *clap clap*
[18:51] *Arnelos* you see... we're the ones holed up inside Helm's Deep getting our asses besieged
[18:52] *notyoueither* are we the elves, or are we darker...
[18:52] *Arnelos* and GoW bears some... resemblance... to orcs
[18:52] *notyoueither* please go on
[18:52] *Arnelos* the analogy breaks down in several places, but oh well
[18:53] *Arnelos* you guys could use elven and Gondor avatars
[18:53] *notyoueither* being elves would explain the fixation on nature, and the cotrol over winds and seas
[18:53] *Arnelos* the implication being that ND and GoW are the hordes of orcs created to destroy the world of men
[18:53] *notyoueither* hehe
[18:53] *Arnelos* We had an "alliance" with GoW... Saruman?
[18:54] *notyoueither* heh
[18:54] *Arnelos* it was just a cute idea I came up with while watching the Two Towers in the cheap theatre with friends last night
[18:54] *Arnelos* $2.50 for that movie is great
[18:55] *notyoueither* i am waiting to see them all. 1 2 3, the same night
[18:55] *Arnelos* the dvd's?
[18:55] *notyoueither* unfortunately, 1 came on tv one night
[18:55] *notyoueither* or in a theatre
[18:55] *Arnelos* the dvd's all three of them would be something like 10-11 hours put together
[18:55] *notyoueither* theatres may well do that
[18:56] *Arnelos* that's a daylong activity
[18:56] *Arnelos* but I agree it would be great
[18:56] *Arnelos* so yeah... if we ever get avatars back, we could certainly work on that
***diverged into some talk regarding ISDG and personalities. Then lengthy dead air.
Session Close: Sat Jul 19 22:40:52 2003

[Harovan]

Not really diplomacy, but a contact anyway. To History Guy by PM:

To His Holiness Pope Calixtus I

Your Holiness,

please accept a humble greet from your lowly servant Frater Ralphus, missionary of the Holy Catholic Church in the Lands of the Storm. As you know, our warriors are crossing the sea to help fighting the black and the yellow plague, threatening the Holy See and the whole nation of Spain. As their shepherd, I am always with them, to give spiritual assistance in the hardships of the battle. Please forgive them, Your Holiness, that they are heathens and don't yet believe in The Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They still worship their own deity and call it the Holy Chicken. We will have hard work with them, but are not without hope.

They are mighty warriors and with no doubt will fight bravely for Spain and crush her treacherous enemies. This way, they also do their service to the Holy See and the whole Holy Catholic Church. Albeit nonbelievers, they deserve your blessing. May I humbly ask you to consecrate them and their glorious campaign? I hope, you are pleased with my hard work and may be one day will award me with the title of the Archbishop or even Cardinal of the Storm.

Your humble servant,

Frater Ralphus, missionary of the Storm

[notyoueither]

Revised document received from Arnelos.

Treaty of Permanent Partnership Between the Gathering Storm and Spain

Purpose

The purpose of this treaty is to affirm the creation of a permanent partnership between the nations of the Gathering Storm and Spain, the purpose of which is to ensure the security and prosperity of both nations for all time to come. The member nations shall seek to cooperate with one another in the future to ensure joint success in the competition of the nations through a victory on the part of the Gathering Storm and prosperity for Spain.

Article I - Non-Aggression

1. Neither nation shall ever attack the other unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners for the purpose of exchanging artillery units.

2. Neither nation shall ever declare war upon the other unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners for the purpose of exchanging artillery units.

Article II - Sharing of Luxuries

1. The partner nations shall share all available luxuries with one another unless Clause 2 or 3 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the two nations, they may decide to forgo one of their nations having a luxury in order to sell it to a foreign power.

3. If only one source of a luxury should exist between the partner nations, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide what nation that luxury shall go to.

Article III - Partnership in Technological Research

1. The partner nations shall share all technologies in their possession with the other unless Clause 2 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the partner nations, they may decide to forgo sharing a given technology with one or the other nation.

3. Cooperative research goals shall be discussed between the partners and if any conflicts exist, they shall be resolved by a decision by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

4. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sell a technology to a foreign power.

Article IV - Wonders of the World

1. The partners shall inform each other of what wonders of the world they are planning to construct.

2. If any conflict exists in plans by the partners to construct wonders of the world, the nation of the Gathering Storm may make a decision on what wonders it will construct that the nation of Spain will not.

Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance

1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner.

2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

3. If the nation of the Gathering Storm decides to declare war upon a foreign power, the nation of Spain shall do so as well if this is requested by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

4. If the partners jointly agree, the nation of Spain may unilaterally declare war upon a foreign power that has not invaded its territory.

5. The partners shall cooperate in all military matters during any war by sharing information about troop positions, intelligence about the enemy, and plans.

6. For any territory conquered from a foreign power in war, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide to which partner the territory shall eventually be awarded and when it shall.

Article VI - Exchange of Territory

1. Parts of Spain, as jointly decided by the partners, shall be transferred from Spain to the Gathering Storm during the war to aid in the defense of allied lands on the continent of Bob. At the war's end, all such lands ceded to the Gathering Storm shall be returned to Spain with the exception of the port city of Bilbao.

2. Spain shall keep, as its official possessions, all lands historically within the boudaries of Spain and all lands to the south of current Spanish territory upon the continent of Bob with the exception of Bilbao and another Gathering Storm port to the northeast of Madrid.

3. When the lands south of the central Bobian mountains in Neu Demogyptica are conquered by the alliance, the cities of Marlowa, Arneblanca, Neu Theben, Trippolis, Mavdad, their environs and lands south of them will be granted to Spain.

4. All land on the continent of Bob not reserved to Spain in Clauses 1 through 3 shall be given to the Gathering Storm upon its conquest by the alliance.

5. Neither partner shall ever accept the cultural conversion of a city belonging to the other partner. Should any cultural conversion of a city take place from one partner to the other anyhow, the city in question shall be immediately returned to its original owner.

6. The partners may exchange additional territory by mutual agreement at any point in the future and such agreements may include the exchanging of lands with nations not a party to this partnership at the mutual agreement of both partners.

ARTICLE VII - Additional Agreements

1. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a non-aggression agreement with a foreign power.

2. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a mutual-protection agreement with a foreign power.

3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by the partnership with foreign powers.

ARTICLE VIII - Ratification

1. Once this treaty has been signed by the representatives of each partner, those representatives are responsible for taking the treaty back to be ratified by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm.

2. Upon ratification by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm and notification of this ratification in each case is sent to the other nation, this treaty will go into effect and the partners will be bound by its terms.

ARTICLE IX - Ammendments

1. This treaty may be ammended if representatives of the two partners mutually agree to an ammended version of the treaty and such an ammended treaty is then ratified using the guidelines found in Article VIII.

[Harovan]

From History Guy, by PM

To His Eminence Cardinal Ralphus of Aegyptus

Good and true son of the Church,

I thank you for you kind letter. May God bestow His manifold blessings upon you and your flock!

My good and true friend and brother in Christ, I officially appoint you the sixth Cardinal of the Curia and Missionary Bishop of Egypt. Either I myself or the Archbishop of Spain and Missionary Bishop Polaris Winterius [Nuclear Winter] shall send a private messenger to you with the news on all official polls in the Madrid Curia, and you can cast your vote that way (that is, hopefully, until we’ve managed to figure out a way to get such things done in the general forum or something to that effect). In this position, you may vote on Papal elections and on decisions of the House of Cardinals. In fact, I am working on plans now to open a thread in the general forum to formerly allow free discussion by members of the Curia from all different countries. I would welcome any suggestions on how this may be effectively done.

As Missionary Bishop, you shall appoint fellow members of your country, trusted disciples of Christ, as priests or bishops of different provinces of Egypt. Also, you shall try your best diplomatically to convert other nations to Christ once the Church is firmly established in Estonia.

Also, let me stress how very pleased the Church by such warm reception in your lands. We shall certainly be very glad to bless and consecrate the forces under the command of Egypt in this campaign, and they shall carry with them the Papal Banner. I have sent along the flag of the Vatican so that it may be flown with the other colors of the bannermen. Even in such a war, God shall be glorified, for the oppressive Arabs and Chinese have long directed aggression towards the One True Faith and towards the True Cross. As such, the joint war of the Spanish and Egyptians armies has been declared by the Curia to be a great crusade.

Finally, I appoint you the third paladin of the Church, and have sent along a burly bodyguard of Swiss Guardsmen.

Thank you again for your letter. Go with my blessings, friend and brother. May God protect you.

I send greetings to my Christian brothers in Egypt and to the King of that fair country.

Pope Calixtus I

[notyoueither]

Gentlemen, we have a treaty.

Treaty of Permanent Partnership Between the Gathering Storm and Spain

Purpose

The purpose of this treaty is to affirm the creation of a permanent partnership between the nations of the Gathering Storm and Spain, the purpose of which is to ensure the security and prosperity of both nations for all time to come. The member nations shall seek to cooperate with one another in the future to ensure joint success in the competition of the nations through a victory on the part of the Gathering Storm and prosperity for Spain.

Article I - Non-Aggression

1. Neither nation shall ever attack the other unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners for the purpose of exchanging artillery units.

2. Neither nation shall ever declare war upon the other unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners for the purpose of exchanging artillery units.

Article II - Sharing of Luxuries

1. The partner nations shall share all available luxuries with one another unless Clause 2 or 3 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the two nations, they may decide to forgo one of their nations having a luxury in order to sell it to a foreign power.

3. If only one source of a luxury should exist between the partner nations, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide what nation that luxury shall go to.

Article III - Partnership in Technological Research

1. The partner nations shall share all technologies in their possession with the other unless Clause 2 is activated.

2. By a joint decision of the partner nations, they may decide to forgo sharing a given technology with one or the other nation.

3. Cooperative research goals shall be discussed between the partners and if any conflicts exist, they shall be resolved by a decision by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

4. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sell a technology to a foreign power.

Article IV - Wonders of the World

1. The partners shall inform each other of what wonders of the world they are planning to construct.

2. If any conflict exists in plans by the partners to construct wonders of the world, the nation of the Gathering Storm may make a decision on what wonders it will construct that the nation of Spain will not.

Article V - Mutual Protection and Military Alliance

1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner.

2. The timing of such a declaration and of the arrival of military aid as in Clause 1 shall be discussed between the partners and ultimately decided by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

3. If the nation of the Gathering Storm decides to declare war upon a foreign power, the nation of Spain shall do so as well if this is requested by the nation of the Gathering Storm.

4. If the partners jointly agree, the nation of Spain may unilaterally declare war upon a foreign power that has not invaded its territory.

5. The partners shall cooperate in all military matters during any war by sharing information about troop positions, intelligence about the enemy, and plans.

6. For any territory conquered from a foreign power in war, the nation of the Gathering Storm shall decide to which partner the territory shall eventually be awarded and when it shall.

Article VI - Exchange of Territory

1. Parts of Spain, as jointly decided by the partners, shall be transferred from Spain to the Gathering Storm during the war to aid in the defense of allied lands on the continent of Bob. At the war's end, all such lands ceded to the Gathering Storm shall be returned to Spain with the exception of the port city of Bilbao.

2. Spain shall keep, as its official possessions, all lands historically within the boudaries of Spain and all lands to the south of current Spanish territory upon the continent of Bob with the exception of Bilbao and another Gathering Storm port to the northeast of Madrid.

3. When the lands south of the central Bobian mountains in Neu Demogyptica are conquered by the alliance, the cities of Marlowa, Arneblanca, Neu Theben, Trippolis, Mavdad, their environs and lands south of them will be granted to Spain.

4. All land on the continent of Bob not reserved to Spain in Clauses 1 through 3 shall be given to the Gathering Storm upon its conquest by the alliance.

5. Neither partner shall ever accept the cultural conversion of a city belonging to the other partner. Should any cultural conversion of a city take place from one partner to the other anyhow, the city in question shall be immediately returned to its original owner.

6. The partners may exchange additional territory by mutual agreement at any point in the future and such agreements may include the exchanging of lands with nations not a party to this partnership at the mutual agreement of both partners.

ARTICLE VII - Additional Agreements

1. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a non-aggression agreement with a foreign power.

2. By a joint decision of the partners, the nation of Spain may sign a mutual-protection agreement with a foreign power.

3. Future agreements between the partners and with foreign powers may be created and both partners pledge to do their utmost to find mutually beneficial solutions for the partners in all such cases, but ultimately the nation of the Gathering Storm has the right to veto potential agreements by Spain with foreign powers and thus carries an obligation to honor future agreements made by Spain with foreign powers.

4. With the exception of Article I, this treaty is subject to restrictions which Gathering Storm may be under due to agreements with foreign powers. If Gathering Storm is unable to fulfill a clause of this treaty, because doing so would cause a violation of an agreement with a foreign power, then Gathering Storm will not be considered to have violated this treaty.

5. The existence of this treaty, and the terms of it, are to be kept secret from all civs and individuals who are not members or citizens of Gathering Storm or Spain. Gathering Storm may grant permission to disclose the existence of this treaty or specific details of it when Gathering Storm feels it would be beneficial to do so, at which time specified details may be disclosed, but the remainder will remain secret.

ARTICLE VIII - Ratification

1. Once this treaty has been signed by the representatives of each partner, those representatives are responsible for taking the treaty back to be ratified by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm.

2. Upon ratification by the House of Lords in Spain and the Council of the Storm in the Gathering Storm and notification of this ratification in each case is sent to the other nation, this treaty will go into effect and the partners will be bound by its terms.

ARTICLE IX - Ammendments

1. This treaty may be ammended if representatives of the two partners mutually agree to an ammended version of the treaty and such an ammended treaty is then ratified using the guidelines found in Article VIII.

SIGNATURES

Francisco Clemente
Senor Francisco Clemente, Representative of Spain

notyoueither (signed and ratified)
Notyoueither, Representative of the Gathering Storm

Certification of Ratification by Spain and Papal Approval:

Justino Togas
King Justino Togas of Spain

Libre
Senor Libre, Deputy Lord Chamberlain of the House of Lords

Calixtus I
Pope Calixtus I