DIPLO: RollPlay Team contact LOG

[DeepO]

GodKing wrote on 10-01-2003 00:25:

DeepO;

Vox is the one team we have not met, nor have we been able to open relations with them in any significant way. We have met Lux and GoW. Lego and ... I cannot remember their name (ND?), are close to us and we expect to make contact with both of them soon IIRC.

You are on another continent. We have explored to our south and find an ocean between us. We have heard rumor that Vox is close enough to see, but is separated by water. Only rumor, so we have nothing to confirm with. Another civ is near Vox who is toward your NE we suspect.

We respect the right of secrecy. We are attempting to have good diplomatic relations with all civs. One cannot do that if one is a back stabber, liar, and so forth. Therefore, we regard anything said between civs as confidential. Any trades made between civs are confidential. That is why when asked earlier if we would trade another civs map - I had to answer no. Explicitly stated in the trades is the idea that it was between the two civs, and therefore not an option. The same holds true with your civ. If for example you tell me you have... oh say Code of Laws (love those goodie huts) and are willing to trade it, we will not tell any other civ that you are the one that gave it to us in exchange for Construction. That does not mean that we will not offer to sell it if it is to our advantage to do so, same as you would. But the knowledge of how we acquired said tech is nobodies business but ours. Does this make sense? The same holds true with maps at this stage. However, once we are in the later stages where map trading is possible, we expect world maps to go for lots, and territory maps to be the prime source of trading between civs. We hope to be able to trade territory maps at the appropriate time with most civs, but that is a ways away from now.

Current trades we would like to discuss:

Non aggression pacts: For X number (we have used 50) turns after our civs meet, there will be no aggression between our peoples.

Tech trades. Keep in mind what you have, and what you want. Once our civs meet up is more appropriate time to discuss such trades, but always keep in mind the what’s. I suspect we will try to send a boat (galley) your way soon. Trading current mini maps is a good way we can arrange this as we will know if there are land bridges we can send it across without sinking. We have also explored a lot of land, the most of any other civ that we have traded maps with, with perhaps the exception of Lego (who we traded to first and at that time were about equal to our area).

Wonder Agreements. You build a wonder, and we build another. Even if we don't get our wonder and have to waste the shields, we will not switch to your wonder. You do the same.
- Wonders we are potentially interested in are pyramids & Great Library.
- Wonders we are not interested in are Colossus & Lighthouse.
- The great wall, hanging gardens and oracle we are debating on.

Anything you might wish to trade or discuss. Sorry I have not been able to communicate as much as I would like lately, however that daemon RL keeps popping up. I hope the transition to nye leaving has not seriously effected your team much. Wishing you to come in second place….

GodKing
RolePlay Team ambassador to Gathering Storm.

[DeepO]

DeepO wrote on 10-01-2003 13:36:
Thanks GodKing, for a very informative and complete reply. I'm going to ask my team what to do with the proposed deals, we have been talking about tech trades and non-aggresion pacts, but the wonder agreements are something else.

I'll get back to you (most likely) this evening, with more to tell.

Greetz,
DeepO

[DeepO]

The following message was sent to GodKing in three parts, as it couldn't fit the PM length. Damn restrictions

Dear GodKing,

My apologies for not being able to get back to you sooner. there is certainly alot going on within our team, which tends to makes any discussion slip past proposed deadlines. Also, Meshelic lately needs to focus more and more on rl issues, and won't be able to be so active in the position of GS foreign minister, and ambassador to your people. I hope that, for the time being, me replacing him as interim ambassador won't cause any problems.

I'll try to answer all your questions in proper order.

1. Vox.
We have maybe eased tensions between our nations a little, which is good. However, at this point there is little reason to believe that Vox will proof to be the long-term trading partner we hoped to get as a neighbour. The sooner we can meet other Civs (and yes, Spain has always held our highest regard), the better.

2. Non-aggression pact.
Certainly, a non-aggression deal between our nations sounds good, but there are some diplomatic catches which make it difficult for us to agree to one formally. First of all, we have stated before that we are going to honor all deals, and generally play the game honorably. While in essence a noble cause, lately it has come to our attention that there is more then one snake under the grass, it certainly makes this game more challenging.

One of the problems here is the concept of non-aggression: we are a peaceful tribe, and would love to ratify our position more officialy. But, we can't foresee what might happen in the far future, and thus feel wary to commit to long term deals. OTOH, all deals with a fixed end date (like your 50 turns after meeting) are in itself tense, and seem to imply that it is kind of a countdown for hostilities once the deal ends. This scares us even more, as we don't like to imply this, tension is something that builds up over time, and is not supposed to eplode so immediate.

Also, it makes us a bit vulnerable, as it would take away the proverbial stick. For instance, once we would agree to a non-aggression for a longer duration, anybody could sail a settler to what we plan as our future territory, and plop down a city completely surrounded by our territory, undefended. Indeed, it could rely on us for its protection against other civs, as they most likely need to pass through our territory to reach that lone city, which we can't accept because we are sworn to non-aggression. There are more issues like this, and I agree that with a bit of friendliness and openess this kind of situation shouldn't appear in a game, but we don't want to get our hands tied on deals that initially seem beneficial for two parties, but after a while proof to be too constraining for us.

But, these smaller issues could be resolved with a few modifications... the above city-building problem can be easily resolved by including a paragraph in our deal that states that Civ A will not build a city in the neighbourhood of Civ B's territory (e.g. on the same continent within 8 tiles) without Civ B's approval. This approval should be easily given in most cases, but at least it takes away the aggressive nature of settling too close to someone's borders.
Also, the fixed duration issue should be able to be worked around with for instance a running deal: agree to 20 turn non-aggression, but negotiate all 10 turns. So, when a negotation crashes, it would still leave both parties 10 turns to prepare their defense, meanwhile trying to glue the pieces together, and reach a deal anyhow.

3. minimap / contact
In the same respect, we would welcome trading current minimaps with you, certainly as it will guide trading galleys accross the high seas relatively safely. But, those minimaps can also be used to explore possible colony sites on the other continent, and we don't need colonies of any civ near our borders soon. The available land on our piece of land is most likely going to be divided (hopefully peacefully) between Vox and ourselves, there is no abundance, just barely enough. I know, we might seem territorial to you, but at least territorial is better than warmonging. Again, it is a show of honesty that I share with you these concerns, we really would like to avoid becoming them any issues later on. And, we can understand you have similar issues when it comes to your beloved homeland, and would like to anticipate them as well.

If you could agree to such a deal, where we promise not to use minimaps to chose the best spots on the other continent, I'm sure we will be fast to trade our minimap (full proposal will need to get polled in our senate).

BTW, when I was talking about the piece of land explored, I forgot that you are expansionist... through luck, we have explored a lot of land (up until we bumped into Vox, after which scouting stopped), but surely we can't keep up to your glorious explorers. My mistake, for which I apologize.

Also, you were talking of acquiring galleys soon. We have been working toward a similar goal, but the tension with Vox has delayed our progress. Do you have a rough estimate on how long it would take for you to arrive on our shores, and be welcomed with the biggest welcoming party our people could afford? Not only would it make planning for the festival easier, but maybe it could also guide us in our research, so that we can complement each other instead of doing things twice.

4. Tech trades:
we would welcome this very much. As you have contacted many civilizations, we can only imagine you will be advanced in many disciplines. However, we of Gathering Storm are proud to announce we have the best facilities when it comes to research, and our analysists say that the gap between us and the rest of the world will most likely only increase in the coming years. Maybe we can't share any interesting techs with you now (I doubt it, but maybe), but certainly we have the potential to become your best partner when it comes to research. You are right in that this might not be the best time to discuss it, but a lot depends on when you foresee to arrive on our shores. If that moment would already be very close, it might be best to start planning common research goals, instead of just dealing with what we have.

5. Wonder agreements
Sadly, we can't commit to this deal at this point in our game. Of course, our nation also longs for the Great Library, even if we may not be so focused as other teams in building it. But we can't rule out any unforeseen situations: if one of our troops would for instance be promoted to a leader at the right time, I'm certain that the GL would be a sure demand in our team, we can't be constrained then. Case by case deals may be possible, but I doubt that we will get a majority when it comes to 'giving' the GL to any other team, however sweet the deal would be.

5. Secrecy.
Don't get me wrong, but to be honest, proposing to gain the minimap of another civ was a bit of a test from our side. Whatever the result of negotiations would have been, we were not going to acquire a minimap in such a dishonorable way. However, we liked to assess how safe our information would be in your hands, how much we could trust you. After all, this is still a fairly young world, and you never know who you deal with. I hope it didn't damage our relations, but it was one of the few options we had to test you, and you passed brilliantly.

We regard secrecy of deals very high, and will never betray our trading partners in such way. But, as you have said before, there is a difference: techs acquired through deals are not the property of the original owner anymore, and can freely be sold again. Where the tech came from is something else, we are not going to tell the origins of any tech. This is certainly different from minimaps, which do kind of belong to te original owner, and are not to be shared. Also, I told you a bit on the relations between us and Vox, this is completely from observation, and nowhere the result of any diplomatic contact between our two civs. What is said in diplomatic contacts will remain secret on our side, to the best of our abilities.

I hope this is a decent reply to your proposal, please contact me if I would have forgotten anything. Also, please don't mind my English: I'm fully aware that it doesn't grasp the little differences in meanings natively spakeing people see and understand. Whereever there is doubt, understand that I do not want to imply anything wrong, it most likely is just a language error of me. This is part of the reason I needed this much text to explain myself, I really want to avoid any imsunderstanding.

I wish you the best of luck, and let's hope to meet your explorers soon,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Hello DeepO;

I am in receipt of your messages. I have posted them in our forum and people are currently discussing them. I wish to apologize for the delay in writing you back. RL has had me running around a lot lately, and I have not been able to devote the time I would have liked to the demo games.

Your English is excellent. I do understand the problems associated with writing and thinking in a foreign language however as I lived for 3 years in South America. If there is anything that is not clear, please feel free to let me know and I will be more than happy to help clarify.

Our research is currently geared toward mapmaking; however I do not know when we will acquire the technology. I suspect it will be soon, but with REX in progress it is difficult to predict. When we have more concrete information, I will gladly relay it to you so as we may arrange a meeting.

I must also apologize for an error I made earlier. We have made contact with three teams in the game. Lux, ND and GoW. Lego is apparently on another continent (last I had heard there was hope still that they were on ours, but alas that hope has faded).

Your trade proposal regarding non-aggression for 10 turn increments so far has received favorable approval. Particularly if it would be combined with a clause prohibiting you from colonizing our continent and us from colonizing your continent. Once the discussion in our forum concludes on this I will be more than happy to contact you and make a formal agreement.

Regarding a trade of mini-maps… our team has at this time decided that we do not wish to trade them as we are not ready for sending a galley across the ocean yet. Perhaps at a later time when our navy is in place and we prepare to make first contact. We are not ruling out trading it in the future, just at this time.

We are glad that tensions between you and Vox have eased up. We fear that with their immortals that they may be rather difficult to deal with in the early stages of the game.

Wishing you good luck;

GodKing

cc – Togas, supreme leader and despot of the RP team.

[DeepO]

Thank you GodKing,

All positive news, it seems. Don't worry about the late contact, I fully understand RL things... it wasn't very critical to read my messages the day I sent them anyway, these are all long duration deals, nothing urgent.

I'll get your reply onto our forum, and will reply in full once I get more time (currently at work too). But, one quick comment: we don't particularly fear immortals, as we are not planning an attack, and on defense our generals are more then capable to hold off any force at this moment, certainly of slowmovers. However, it would be very unfortunate if we have to divert all these resources to military goals when we still have so much expansion ahead of us...

Hoping to speak to you soon,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Greetings GodKing,

Just a short note, with what we hope will be news... We just ran across our first barbarian camp. This seems news, as we heared quite some comments on the general forum, assuming there were no barbarians, or only sedentary barbs in this game we're playing.

We don't know if you already saw barbs yourself, but as a kind warning, we decided to tell all teams we have diplomatic contact with of 'our' barbarians, in the hopes you can protect yourself against possible outbreaks.

Best wishes in this game,
DeepO of Gathering Storm.

[DeepO]

GodKing wrote on 28-01-2003 23:00:

Thank you for the note. I will pass it on to our team.
GK

[DeepO]

Dear DeepO:

We here on the RP team have a concern that is of interest to both of our teams. I suspect that Vox may have a contact with a team on our continent. We do not know this for a fact, but our intelligence has come to the conclusion that there is a high probability of this being so, if not through a land bridge, then through an area of land that is close enough to be visible from each side.

We suspect that you are researching the new concept of Writing. We ourselves are researching this technology. We have already made arrangements to sell this technology, and fear that Vox may acquire it prior to your ability to sell it to them. We would be willing to delay our sale a couple of turns if you will agree to the following:

“RP and GS will release the technology of Writing to the world at the same time, in the year_____”.

By this we assume that you will have it researched within the next 4-6 turns. If this is not the case, we will of course to what is best for our nation. If it is slightly higher than the 4-6 turns, say 6 to 10 or so, we will see what we can do to not trade it to the nation in particular until the appropriate time, but no promises as I will have to clear this with our Lord Togas. In order for this to work, we need the following information from you: Are you researching Writing? If so, when will you have it? As a gesture of good faith, I will tell you that we are researching it and expect to have it within 3 turns. Please of course keep this information confidential within your team.

As an additional note, we do appreciate your warning regarding the barbarian tribes encountered. We ourselves are encountering barbarians and have sent several war parties to deal with them. May you deal with the heathens you encounter most effectively.

Peace between us;

GodKing

Diplomat to the Pharaoh of Gathering Storm
Royal Chamber Pot Cleaner to our Lord Togas, Despot of the Tribes of Spain, Subjugator of the Heathen Visigoths, Purveyor of all that is Good and Holy, and maker of a fine beer called Togas Bru.

[DeepO]

Thanks, Godking, for this message.

It certainly is interesting to us, allow me to post it to our board, and reply you later with better-thought out things. I do know our research, of course, but I both don't know when exactly we will get writing, nor if we would be willing for such a deal (I can't see why not, although it would favor you more then it would favor us, as you have more contacts.)

Let me get back to you this evening, in the mean time I wish you well.

DeepO

[DeepO]

DeepO - I will be out for the next couple of days if my schedule works like I suspect it will. So if you can please send any corispondance to both myself and Togas (who by cc of this message I am letting him know of my absence as well). I should be back on Monday if it works out. Thanks. Appologies for any inconvenience.

GK

[DeepO]

GodKing,

I'm sorry to be late in answering you, it both was a busy weekend, and we needed to discuss this.

First of all, we would be happy to have some kind of limited non-disclosure agreement on writing. But there are a few problems with it, in that we fear that there won't be enough reason for you to do it. You will discover writing before us, it seems, as we will have some 2-3 turns left to research when you complete it. The (in)stability with Vox has left us to work on our defensive capabilities first before we could search for nobler goals like the concept of writing. Further, if there is one thing the tense peace between Vox and GS has learned us, is that their research capabilities are rather limited, most likely we won't be able to trade writing away the moment we discover it for the simple reason there won't be anything to trade for....

So if you would be willing to delay trading writing away, it is easy for us to agree to do the same as we can't speed up the release of writing into the world; it would be completely at your pace.

As to the contact of Vox: yes they have one contact with a team outside us. I'm not sure if you were assuming this already, but the team of Lux Invicta are in close proximity to them. We can't reach Lux for the moment, so we effectively have to deal with a middleman when it comes to trading our knowledge around. We're hoping this situation gets resolved quickly. It would please us to know whether you have direct, in-game contact with Lux.

One of the ways to do get out of our isolation is to build boats soon, or be reached by boats soon. As a result, Map making is high on our research list, but there are other choices too (and we're discussing what's next). Do you intend to research MM soon, building a few boats to explore the nearby coasts? Maybe we can trade this technology in the near future, if either of us will go for it first.

Kind regards,
DeepO of Gathering Storm

[DeepO]

Hello GodKing,

I never got a reply to my last message, but I can certainly understand, it seems the past week has been very hectic diplomatically speaking. Allow me to ask for some more information regarding possible tech trades between our nations.

Since last time, we've inched closer to our discovery of writing, and hope that we have secured a trade with Vox when we'll get it. But, as this technology will soon be discovered, we were thinking on what to research next. Would it be possible to set up a deal between us, so that one partner goes down one path, the other researches something else, and we meet at the end to trade what we got (if needed with some compensation to whoever would be disadvantaged)?

We were assuming that you were going for literature, as you mentioned before that the Great Library interests you, if this is the case, we could focus on e.g. Code of laws or philosophy, with a possible third tech partner this should get us to both libraries and republic as fast as possible. Would you be interested in such a deal?

Further, we hear some strange rumours coming from the main continent (BTW, have you named your continent? Ours is either called Estonia or Stormland, depending on who you ask), that the situation is quite tense. We hope you're not involved in any wars, as war is bad for business. Would you be so kind to tell us your fears when it comes to nations? It seems Vox wants to sell our contact information to a couple of nations, we might be in contact sooner then we hoped. If so, it would be best for us if we have some idea on who is a willing, and reliable trade partner, and who is not. Of course, I'm talking about your personal opinion here, we really would value some kind of partnership between our nations, it would be best if we don't ally with your foes before that

Kind regards,
DeepO of Gathering Storm

[DeepO]

Just received (and answered) by e-mail:

GodKing,

I'm sorry to hear you've got problems with your PC... I was already curious why I didn't hear from you. 'poly has been buggy, lately, maybe that is part of your problems. I hope to hear back from you soon.

Togas,
indeed, please send us an interim ambassador for as long as GodKing is unavailable. It seems (or at least I hope) we've got some issues to discuss.

Greetz,
DeepO

RICHARD OLSON wrote:

Togas (and perhaps DeepO)

My computer is still acting up. Damn this new firewall. Togas, if you could please responde to DeepO with a PM - and hopefully this email will go through now. DeepO, if you are able to read this, please know that I am resigning as ambassador to GS because of computer problems. I enjoyed working with you, and hopefully in the future we will be able to work together again. Togas is in the process of finding another diplomat to take my place. I wish to apologize in case this causes any problems. I will still be around, however, I am unable to reliably send and receive emails, along with not being able to use the PM function on poly. I was unable to even post on poly for the last week or so. Good luck and keep on civin'

GK

[DeepO]

Another e-mail and response, this time from Togas.

Thanks Togas. Have you been kept informed of all communications between myself and GodKing (i.e. do your team keep logs)? I guess so, but if not, I'll forward the last messages to you. I think there might be some possible deals you might want to look into.

DeepO

Tom Ogas wrote:

DeepO,

I am currently taking applications for replacement for GodKing. I will send to
you his name and contact information. In the mean time, you may contact me for
all diplomacy matters between our team.

--Togas

[DeepO]

just in... short reply included.

Thank you, Togas, for the very informative and pleasant answer. Allow me to post this on our board, and get back to you tomorrow... it's getting late here, and I want to be fresh not to miss anything when replying.

DeepO

DeepO,

This message is in response to the PM you sent to GodKing:

We have aquired Writing and are researching Literature, as GodKing informed you. We have only sold Writing to one other civilization, but are presenting negotiating with others for the sale of writing.

We now have contact with Vox, and have negotiated contact with your people. We hope to have acheived Contact with you by the next time we get the save.

We think it is wise to agree to research different knowledge so that we have something to give each other. We have experimented with future trade deals here on our own continent amongst our neighbors and ran into all sorts of struggle and pitfalls. It seems that as time changes and relationships change, future tech suggested trades become "promises" to one party and "mere suggestions" to another. Or (as we experienced with Lux) one party simply doesn't research AT ALL, they trade for the tech they promised to research (in exchange for the promise of our tech) and then pretend that they researched it themselves.

We think that it's best, for now, to just try to stay on different paths so that when the knowledge comes, each team can be sure to have something worth trading around. Hearing that you wish to research Philosophy or Code of Laws sounds like an admirable plan and we support it. We would be willing to pledge not to research those knowledges to allow you to have the first opportunity to sell them.

War is brewing in the north of our continent. Thankfully, we are not a part of it ... yet. We hope to stay neutral. There is great friction between Neu Dem and Lux Invicta over the founding of two rival cities a mere 2 tiles apart. Both sides claim that war is inevitable. We have tried to mediate and will continue to do so. We fear that the Vultures of War (GoW) will swoop in and feast on the carnage that is caused, taking in a great deal of money, territory, and technology in the process.

It would be unfair of us to suggest who you should trade with and who you should not, but I will share with you my personal experience with the other 3 nations in our land:

Lux Invicata -- make very reasonable offers, but are sly like a fox. Their scheme was only recently uncovered. For the longest time they did barely funded any research of their own, and lived merely as a knowledge middle-man, with a secret connection to Vox as their ace in the hole. GoW found this out and destroyed it by "stealing" contact with Vox and then selling it to us.

Glory of War -- very difficult to deal with, but surprisingly adept businessmen. If you can stand their boasts, threats, and insults (if you don't do what they want), you can often walk away with a decent bargain from these war merchants.

Neu Dem -- fair, but very quiet. They rarely communicate, but when they do, they are quite pleasant to deal with. Their lack of initiative has left them somewhat behind the rest. They take a while to get back to you.

These are my personal opinions. I hope that they will be of some use to you as your people venture forth into our very complex world.

Lastly, I would like to say that we look forward to future deals with your people. I am now searching my land for the best possible replacement for GodKing. Your representative will be one of our finest.

--Togas