DIPLO: RollPlay Team contact LOG

[DeepO]

Just received from GodKing, by e-mail, as an unofficial channel. Very interesting!

GodKing, nice of you to contact me.

We were already seriously considering that option, yes. Maybe you can confirm something else: was it part of an agreement to get Port Isolation back from GoW?

I'm wondering how you see this 'action'; clearly it would do good to all of Bob if GS would be limited somewhat in our expansion, we can understand that. But do you think teams plan to take advantage of this situation, invading either Vox or our home country as we are busy fighting a war? It might affect when we would release feudalism, possibly followed by chivalry, of course. I wouldn't recommend it to any team though. We think Vox might be underestimating our potential, certainly with our GA coming up. This war should be decided long before knights become available.

As to the feudalism deal: I thought an official offer has been sent to you, but clearly I was wrong...my apologies. I'll repeat:
Feudalism for 200 gold (less then 30% its beaker cost), or 12 gpt for 20 turns upon delivery of Feudalism. After Feudalism is received, a 7 turn Non Disclosure Agreement is in effect, in that you agree not to trade / give it to any other team. After those 7 turns, you are free to do as you please with the tech.

Feudalism should be ours in less then 8 turns for certain, but exactly how much sooner is still something we need to decide. The situation has changed considerably in a few hours time, we could get the tech much sooner, but are likely to save on cash a little first Who knows what clever tricks Vox pull out of their sleeves.

Also, there is a strong possibility that we'll go for Chivalry after feudalism, and if we would not be too much hampered by Vox, we should again be the first to research it, our GA will see to that. Would you perhaps be interested in getting this from us too? Maybe in exchange for a tech, or for a similar gold deal as given above?

Glad to have heard from you, keep in touch,
DeepO

RICHARD OLSON wrote:

Just a heads up... and I will deny anything about this note... you do realize that Vox is going after you and not anybody on Bob, correct?

Rich / Godking of Role Play (Espania)

As a side note, and the official if completely unofficial (as I am un-official assistant to diplomates aka chamber pot cleaner for his Majesty Lord Togas) what price and when would you have Feudalism available for purchase / trade? We are currently broke due to our plans, but may be able to work something out in the near future.

Sir Ninot, our official ambasador to your team, is missing in action and you can direct any offical messages through Togas, and unofficial ones to me. Thanks, and have a nice day.

[DeepO]

Another e-mail, as unofficial communication. Trying to gently set them up against GoW or ND...

Godking,

I think our 'secretiveness' is playing jokes on us. I find it extremely difficult to believe that everybody on Bob seems to think we will surely lose this war. I admit, there may be a few tense turns at the beginning, but Vox is not nearly a match for our production potential. They know we can outbuild them, by at least double the amount, and we were able to do this for many turns past. Also, they are still despots, so their GA is giving them mainly exta commerce, instead of also extra shields.

I find it weird, both Betahound and conquest are good players, they shouldn't be fooled by the military advisor when their forces are still out of sight of our cities. That's the only place where they have an advantage over us... and it will be gone very soon. I can imagine that because they talk a lot to other teams, and we have chosen to keep our strengths hidden, other teams are influenced by this, but we don't feel threatened, it is our belief we will come stronger out of this war then before it was started.

Actually, it wasn't so bad they declared war on us, they know that our part of the continent is getting very full, we would have needed to find space to expand to relatively soon... they have just hastened our plans, and given us a very good and honorable motive to find it close to home. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the main reason why Vox was pushed into this war by Bob: with Vox as our 'friends' there was a chance we would have needed to find expansion space on Bob instead of taking Vox; now we've got all we need right here (e.g. ways of triggering our GA before riders and Answar's become available), and the threat of 'invading' Bob is gone.

As to Feudalism: I can imagine GS is offering it, only a few turns later then our 8 turns (7 by now), and at a lower price. But I don't think you're aware of all the details: GoW has been pressuring us into speeding up research (we should be able to get Feudalism in 2 or 3 turns if we would put the slider to the max, losing money we currently can't afford to loose), by offering a better deal. We are discussing that, but GoW seems to assume it will happen in 2 turns, even if we tried to explain our situation (need for upgrade money) to them.Because all teams we are offering the tech to get the same NDA requirements, they would be able to sell it in 10 turns if we would sell it to them soon, would that by any chance be the duration they are currently projecting to you?

Quite clever of them, to pretend they are close in discovering the tech, while our analysis shows them (and any other team) to be many, many turns behind us at 100% research (which is unlikely to keep if your UU is coming closer). But in this case, they don't tell that the rest of the world will have access to the tech 7 turns before they sell it to you. I'm not sure if this is what you were hoping for...

BTW, in case GoW would become an independent seller, you can be certain our price will drop considerably. In which case you might consider which team you want to give gold to: the one who genuinely put a lot of effort in getting the tech, or the warmonger, needing cash to upgrade to one of the best UUs in Civ3.

Lego: I can imagine your fears. We don't know how big their continent is, but we're quite sure it's a continent, and not an island. However, if it really is that big, it should not be possible to claim that all of that is theirs to settle, like the Bobians have done. So maybe there are possibilities there, I can imagine that the one settling closer to Lego will get an advantage in the long run. We however, have other concerns right now

Discussing planning for the long term future: certainly, why not. We are always looking for someone closer to us then other teams, that can have many advantages for both teams. However, seeing as what happened to our last 'friend', you should be aware that our trust has fallen in general, we have become quite a bit more cautious.
I agree that Lego is probably the best candidate to win this game, if the current peace / tension / very occasional war is kept, but a lot will depend on how the UUs will do on Bob. If GoW or ND join a pact with someone (either the other one, or you), it's reasonable to assume that they will win greatly, a lot more then what we are going to win in the war with Vox in the best of cases. Then, Lego would become an easy target, instead of the peaceful builders they are now.

Our relation with Lego has been amicable so far, and we certainly have no reason to change that now. We would like to remain amicable with most teams for a long time to come, as we were hoping to become a regular tech provider to most teams. Unfortunately our test case of Feudalism isn't going perfect so far. We are already losing money on it relative to the other teams if everyone would be happy and accept our proposal, but seeing as we have the advantage of a fast switch of governments, we thought that to be fair. But now that buyers start dropping as flys, maybe we should revise our long term goals, this is starting to cost us a lot.

Please understand that, even if it is a lot of text, these are my personal views, and no official position of GS. I just like to type lengthy e-mails

Greetz,
Steven

RICHARD OLSON wrote:



No current plans to interfear with GS and Vox. Currently, sides favor a Vox victory, although you probably have more information than we do.

There is some small talk, but only talk, about using this distraction to settle a few border issues here on Bob. I suspect it will simply remain talk and that no actions will actually be taken.

We have received an offer from GoW regarding Feudalism. It is similar to yours except the time is a little later (by a couple of turns only) and the price is less. We will probably go with them in this regards as we are hurting for gold right now (we have been purchasing most of our techs as we are commercial). If you could lower the price we may consider your offer. Chivalry doesn't interest us, but I am sure ND and GoW are VERY interested as that will provide them with their UU's. At that time will things get interesting here on Bob, I am quite sure. Therefore, we are activally interested in making sure that they DON'T get that particular tech until we say so. Any thoughs on this?

Our biggest fear is Lego. They are refusing to sell their map, and GoW is currently exploring their coast. Thay appear to have a very very large landmass and are happily expanding and growing without any interference. As it appears, they will win this game shortly. Depending on how things go here durring the mideval age, we may have to discuss this in the future. I advise you to start considering this now as planning will be key.

Respectfully,

Godking, Chamber Pot Cleaner to his Majesty, Lord Togas

[DeepO]

Togas,
Ninot,
Godking,

I'll be taking up my old role as ambassador to RP again (well, I never resigned, but that red telephone got a bit dusted the past few weeks), Zeit is off his post as FM for a couple of weeks due to a trip abroad.

Feudalism: We are very close to discovering it (normally 2 turns, 3 turns at most in case of unforeseen circumstances), so we would like to offer the proposal to you again. I hope you don't mind we increased the NDA term a little, we don't want Vox to get access to Feud before they are wiped out, I hope you will understand.

So: We will offer Feudalism to you immediately after researching it (should be turn 96, 97 at most), in exchange for 200 gold, or a 12 gpt (20 turns) payment. You agree to respect a 10 turn Non Disclosure Agreement, in that you will not trade / give Feudalism to any other team in those 10 turns after receiving it.

Our team has ratified this proposal, so if you would be interested, please send us a formal acceptance. If you want to discuss it further, please do so, however know that the price is not negotiable, it could at most be transformed from gold into other valuables.

BTW, as far as we know, we are the only ones to currently research this tech (well, Vox might, but good luck to them in getting it). If not buying it from us, you will have to wait 10 turns before this tech will become available to the open market; at which time we would still be interested in making an offer, of course

Certainly there is interest from our team in coordinating future tech plans, however please understand that currently, all discussion is going to the war, we have little time to debate other things right now. All ideas will be welcome, however.

Kind regards,
DeepO of Gathering Storm

[DeepO]

Togas,

Thanks, I'm sure we'll be in touch later. I can understand you have to wait, and yes, please contact us before you would accept an offer from GoW. I'm sure we will try to meet their price, however it is much too soon to negotiate how much that would be.

The risk of waiting would be moderate, chivalry can be easily researched in 7 turns or so, but that might not leave enough time for the UUs to reach you. However, the risk of advantaging a middlemen, who gains relative to both the buyer and the researcher remains... It's good to see you have enough trust in your relation with GoW to even consider such a trade.

See you soon and good luck on Bob,
DeepO

DeepO,

Thank you for your offer of Feudalism. At this time we cannot afford to purchase it. We may be in contact with you @10 turns from now to see if you can beat the price GoW has quoted to us of 75g.

Do note that GoW has already begun shopping Feudalism, however, they have not indicated they would violate the No-Trade, and we do think they will abide by it.

--Togas

[DeepO]

just arrived an e-mail, as response to my last one (in which I told them that GoW was getting Feud from us). Basically, it says Vox has at least 23 immortals.

No time to respond, or to comment now, but I didn't want to keep this from you, now that our turn is getting planned.

Hi Steven / DeepO,



Just to let you know, what Vox has done is not connected their iron, put their sliders on zero research, and pump out a large number of warriors that have been upgraded to Immortals. We (members of the team, not me) have seen a screen shot of over 23 heading towards you, and have been told that more exist (we cannot confirm or deny). Although you obviously have far better production, and have been preparing for a while (I know I would have been if Persia was my northern neighbor) the general consensus is that in the initial rush, they will punch deep into your territory. Weather or not they can maintain their momentum after punching their spearhead into your belly is what will determine the war. Either way, your continent will still take quite a bit of time to recover. From what members of Vox have said, they will leave a scorched earth policy if they are forced to retreat…. As you both will be in your GA, I suspect you may have a harder fight than you think. However, prep work will hold you well, and I am holding any bets until events go further.



I suspect Bob will get into a war within 10 turn after Chivalry makes our shores. Togas is slowly coming to my thinking, and therefore our Military has taken a priority lately. We are ready for war now, and when the Riders and Ansars come on line (both teams are saving up for upgrading) they will march and we will be ready then also. Which way they march is unknown. ND is going to loose no matter what. They are in the middle, and have the worst position. They are however powerful, with a nice compact core area for good production. We are to the south, have large jungle expanses without roadways (that anybody but us know about…), and have a huge advantage with swordsmen and strong defensive locations. If ND lets GoW attack us, we will consider that an act of war and will retaliate. If ND attack us alone, they will die. If GoW attacks ND, we can choose to join in or not and in the meantime continue to grow. IF and a big if it is, both ND and GoW attack us (and if you were ND would you allow GoW to march through your territory?) we have the defenders advantage, and a large enough strike force to make them pay in blood. Then after they loose momentum, our swords take out ND. Our outer cities are within 7 or so moves of ND’s capitol and other core cities, while our core cities are over 20 from their nearest point. We are set to win ourselves. The only way ND wins is if GoW chooses to attack Lego. We will not be aggressors at this time (too many tree hugging peace nicks in RP team if you ask me…)



In case you haven’t guessed, I am the War Monger on my team. I am the one who has developed contingencies for attacking and defending against all the other civs, with combination plans for those civs most likely to join together and attack us jointly. I am also the one pushing us to attack ND, but I know that that will never occur unless things change radically within my team. ND has had some of the most insulting diplomacy, and one of our ambassadors has refused to even talk to them any more. May they get what is deserved….



Every teams relations with Lego (except GoW) have generally been excellent. However, we know that this is a continent world. We know that your continent is fairly small, and Bob is normal sized. We suspect that Lego has as much land as we have here on Bob (they have a land bridge with a sub-continent). With their builder tendencies, the lack of opposition, and the fact that they obviously have several luxuries all to themselves, and the size of land to occupy, they are the dominant team.



GoW – what a team. I was suspecting that they may be trying to do something like that….



Got cut off. Where was I…. Ok. Sorry This didn’t get to you earlier, but I have had computer problems here at work lately and it appears they have just been resolved. Lets talk later after your war progresses a bit. We have to prep for what I fear is coming to our lands. Good luck.



Rich / GK



PS – Oh ya, these are my personal views, not the teams, as you are aware…

[Arrian]

Here is the PM I sent GodKing after his post in the public forum which referenced Legoland:

PTW Demogame
[Disclaimer] This is just me talkin', not GS.[/Disclaimer]

From your comments in the "GS Public Announcement" thread:

quote:
Two things are surprising me in this whole conversation: 1) why isn’t anybody focusing on the long term problem of Lego’s dominance. They have a huge landmass, no competition (except some barbarians) and the traits to be a powerhouse.


Clearly. That's pretty obvious (though the exact extent is impossible to determine, since we don't have their map). I just don't think there is much the rest of the world can do at this point, especially GS. If anybody can hurt Lego, it's the Bobians. Coordinating some sort of consortium of several civs to compete with and/or attack Lego would be very difficult. We at GS have had enough trouble just trying to deal with teams on a 1-on-1 basis, let alone complex alliances.

GS is in a war, and nearly all of our energy is directed at winning it. We are. But it's not like we haven't broken a sweat (which I'm sure the other teams are pleased by - hell, I would be if I were you).

Some of us strongly suspect Lego is about to trigger their GA (they're switching governments, and if they complete the Colossus, voila! GA for them). That's going to make them THE players for a while. And again, I'm not sure what we can do about it. I'm sure as hell not going to pick a fight I don't think I can win. Right now, we're just trying the make the best of a so-so situation (our land just isn't very good, to be honest, and we got immortal rushed).

-Rob

[Arrian]

And GodKing's response:

RE: PTW Demogame


quote:


[Disclaimer] This is just me talkin', not GS.[/Disclaimer]




Ditto. I should have also made it clear that my post was also just me.... perhaps a quick edit is needed.

I can completely understand having to deal with "Short" term emergencies rather than focusing on the long run. This game wouldn't be the same if that wasn't the case.

I am just surprised that nobody but me on my team seams to recognize that Lego is going to win unless something radically changes for them. Heck - I was just exiled to an island and beheded there for being a heritic on my team (first casaulty of the spanish inquisition ).

You are correct, in that there is a general mistrust between out teams (you have been a leader in science, one area Togas wants us to have I think) and we have a good starting position. We also have ND and GoW on our north - and who would trust them with their UU's about to come on line.

So, a proposal if you will. Each of our teams will keep an eye on the long term future, looking to destabalize Lego when and if the opportunity arises, and to keep the others awair of such long term issues. Nothing really formal, just a general understanding to not just focus on the short term but look at the long run as well.

Rich - GK

ps - I agree with your assesment of Lego going for their GA soon. I have suspected that they would once they reach 15+ cities, and judging by what I see that shouldn't be a problem for them.

[Arrian]

And my response to his response :

RE: RE: PTW Demogame
Yeah, Lego is definitely the 400lb Gorilla.

As for the science lead... well, consider that our GA is effectively blown on the war. Add in your commercial trait & your palace move (good decision, btw) and you guys have a better long-term situation (leaving the possibility of a nasty Bobian war aside for a moment). Of course, choosing Monarchy over Republic (I have to assume that was a roleplaying decision) pretty much kills aspirations of tech leadership, doesn't it?

Anyway, look, I'm really frustrated with what I perceive to be a general dislike/distrust of my team by the others (at least those that are vocal), and the leader of your team in particular. I'm also frustrated because it appears that some people have designated us as the "big dog" and that just ain't the truth - as you point out, it's Lego. And that will become more and more apparent as the game progresses, because the Bobian civs & Lego will continue to expand, while we run out of room. Plus everyone else has GAs still to come.

So yeah, obviously we should keep an eye on Lego. I'm also watching Bob, because I'm really curious to see what a war over there will do. Who will attack who? Will it be 2 on 1? 1 on 1 with the other staying out of it? Frankly, Lego's position rocks even more because none of the Bobian civs can afford to mess with Lego unless you all come to some sort of agreement (and trust in that agreement) not to attack each other - and even then, theoretically you have us to worry about.

Lego is in the catbird seat.

-Rob

[OPD]

Recieved about 5 mins ago

Chat with RP
Is someone from your team avaialble for a chat with RP?

BigFree

[nbarclay]

I just had a nice chat with BigFree and E_T. The the main topic is that they have two luxuries they can trade in the near future and two more they can hook up eventually, and they want to know whether we're interested enough to make hurrying up the process of hooking up the luxuries worth their while. (Even with them pushing the pace a little, it will take a while since they're not industrious.)

I hope no one is too annoyed at my being relatively open with them regarding our status and plans (including the likelihood that we won't let Vox survive on our continent), but I think we're better off diplomatically if we don't try to keep things secret when there's no compelling need to. This way, if Vox tries to make us sound like we're being unreasonable, RP knows our reasons.

[23:24] %BigFree% ok, back to business
[23:24] %nbarclay% So did you get anywhere in discussions with OPD other than finding out we don't have a harbor yet?
[23:25] %BigFree% we knew that already
[23:25] %E_T% anyways, as we were telling OPD, we will be having several luxurues connected up relatively soon and will need customers for them
[23:25] %BigFree% he didn't have to say
[23:25] %nbarclay% Knew from the fact that trades were grayed out?
[23:26] %E_T% we actually don't know if you have a city that already has one or if you are even building one sometime soon
[23:26] %BigFree% We saw a Galley of yours near our coast and since we don't havbe a sea route yet, you must not have a harbor.
[23:26] %E_T% Yes, cant even try to trade with you
[23:27] %nbarclay% Would trades show up on your end if you don't know where our harbor is? I'm not sure how the mechanics of that work.
[23:27] %nbarclay% (With AIs, you pretty much always have their map by this point.)
[23:27] %E_T% Brb, need to have a smoke, too long after dinner and I didn't get one after OPD left
[23:27] %BigFree% If you canb trade with us, then we can trade with you, it works both ways
[23:28] %E_T% pathfinder ruotine needs an endpoint that it can route to
[23:28] %BigFree% As sson as we saw you Galley, a sea route was opened, but no harbor to connect to.
[23:29] * E_T is now known as E_T_outside_smoking
[23:29] %BigFree% If you had a harbor, as soon as you saw ours, a path would have been open
[23:30] %nbarclay% In any case, yes, we will need to build a harbor before we can start trading. The question is, is there a prospective trade that would make it worth our while to speed up that process.
[23:30] %BigFree% anyways, it is apparent that we could trade luxes.
[23:31] %nbarclay% I thought Lux was gone.
[23:31] %BigFree% we have extra luxes and you have large cities that need them
[23:31] %BigFree% LOL
[23:32] %nbarclay% How many luxuries do you have that you're in a position to trade right now?
[23:32] %BigFree% We could probably go one for one on the Luxes and then if we have extra's we could do other deals, most likely fo rtech and such.
[23:32] %BigFree% WE can get them linked up very soon, we have two right now,IIRC
[23:33] %BigFree% the other two, very soon
[23:33] %BigFree% depends on how fast you need them
[23:33] %BigFree% and what we would get in return
[23:34] %Trip-% so you mean you have 4 total?
[23:34] %BigFree% yes
[23:34] %Trip-% confusion :P
[23:34] %BigFree% back to the hole now
[23:34] %BigFree% what is so confusing
[23:35] %Trip-% [21:33] %BigFree% WE can get them linked up very soon, we have two right now,IIRC
[23:35] %Trip-% [21:34] %BigFree% the other two, very soon
[23:35] %BigFree% he asked what we have avaialble for trade "right now"
[23:35] %BigFree% so, two "right now"
[23:35] %BigFree% then the other two depending...
[23:36] %Trip-% chat with him, not me :P
[23:36] %BigFree% thta's what I said "back to the hole now"
[23:36] %nbarclay% Any thoughts on what you would want for the luxuries once we get them hooked up?
[23:37] %BigFree% well, like I said; one for one on the luxes till you have no more to offer, then we can trade the other lux(s) for techs and such; it's up for negotiating.
[23:37] %nbarclay% you get them hooked up
[23:37] %nbarclay% I mean
[23:37] %BigFree% right
[23:37] %BigFree% Iknew
[23:39] %BigFree% If you have two, we trade those straight up most likely. Then if you have no other luxes we can substitute gold/tech/other stuff for the trades.
[23:39] %BigFree% What would you offer for two luxeries?
[23:40] %E_T_outside_smoking% one thing that we are in the "decision crux" is how soon to connect up our extra luxes
[23:40] %nbarclay% At the moment, I don't think trading two would do us much good. Extra luxuries only matter if they let you change the luxury slider setting.
[23:41] %nbarclay% And in a GA, with big cities, each notch of the luxury slider is pretty big.
[23:41] %E_T_outside_smoking% as we have non-industrious workers and lots ou mountains to deal with, it take time and effort to get things done
[23:41] %E_T_outside_smoking% but if we know that we have a customer for the "goods", then we can look at expiditing thigs somewaht
[23:41] %BigFree% but,you GA willnot last forever
[23:42] * E_T_outside_smoking is now known as E_T_taking_trash_out
[23:42] %E_T_taking_trash_out% BRB
[23:43] %nbarclay% Agreed that the GA won't last forever. But keep in mind that we also have a timing question: how high a priority do we make a harbor?
[23:44] %BigFree% true, it's up to you on that; we can only offer what we have for right now and you can make a counter offe to see how important it is too your team.
[23:44] %Trip-% trade uranium for aluminum and rubber :P
[23:44] %BigFree% let's say we go straight up on two luxes for two luxes; how important is that to your team?
[23:45] %nbarclay% I think this is something I'll need to post to the team message board and see what our level of interest is. We'll also have to check what other civs on your continent have the same luxuries.
[23:45] %BigFree% then is your team willing to trade techs for the other 2 luxes?
[23:45] %BigFree% sure
[23:45] %BigFree% I can tell you now though
[23:46] %Trip-% "They would be insulted by this deal!"
[23:46] %nbarclay% Insulted by what deal?
[23:46] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +o Trip-
[23:46] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -o Trip-
[23:46] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -v Trip-
[23:46] %Trip-% that's always what the AI says :P
[23:46] %BigFree% LOL
[23:47] %BigFree% the AI is a Moron though, but that's why you get along with him I guess.
[23:47] %E_T_taking_trash_out% Trip, your here to observe
[23:47] %nbarclay% Tech-for-luxury deals work great for human players who have a nice lead over AIs.
[23:47] %nbarclay% But this game is a whole lot closer.
[23:47] %Trip-% the AI doesn't like vice versa though :P
[23:47] %BigFree% It is a close game
[23:48] %BigFree% each team will try to kockey for the most of their resources
[23:48] %nbarclay% Kockey?
[23:48] %BigFree% We would not blame you for that either
[23:48] %E_T_taking_trash_out% one moment
[23:48] %BigFree% *Jockey
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +m
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v Trip-
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -v Trip-
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v nbarclay
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v E_T_taking_trash_out
[23:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v BigFree
[23:49] %E_T_taking_trash_out% there
[23:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out is now known as E_T
[23:49] %E_T% he can observe but not talk
[23:49] %nbarclay% I think this is complicated enough that I'll need to take it back to the team for discussion of what we might want to do.
[23:49] * Trip- has left #ptwtalks
[23:50] %BigFree% RP will try to get the most it can reasonably get for our resources, GS would be wise to do the same; no one can blame anyone for trying to do that.
[23:50] %nbarclay% Agreed. The real fun is trying to find overlap in our concepts of what is "reasonable."
[23:50] %BigFree% You have to take what the game mechanics allow you to take
[23:51] %BigFree% right
[23:51] %E_T% also, please remember that we have to work to get them available, so it's no little effort on our part, either
[23:51] %BigFree% that's the diplomacy model the AI cannot do the "right way"
[23:52] %BigFree% yes, he knows that we don't go to he far reaches of our Civ to hook up uneeded Luxes
[23:52] %nbarclay% I assume you'd be willing to take gold rather than techs if we can find common ground on the amount?
[23:52] %BigFree% but if we have a proposal on the table, we'll make it a priority
[23:53] %nbarclay% I understand about your problem of trying to figure out how big a priority to make hooking up luxuries for trading purposes.
[23:53] %BigFree% gold versus techs?? We'd be inclined to take techs, but if theres enough gold to buy one form someone else, then that's all the same to us.
[23:53] %E_T% or maybe a discount for the techs, in conjunction with the luxes
[23:54] %BigFree% right, we are flexible and would rather make a fair deal than try to rob you.
[23:54] %nbarclay% Frankly, after what happened with Feudalism, GS is going to be a LOI more reluctant to push the tech pace than we would have been.
[23:54] %nbarclay% We thought we had deals lined up in advance with GoW and ND.
[23:55] %nbarclay% ND pulled out because the deal hadn't gone through proper procedural channels, and ended up getting it from someone else.
[23:55] %BigFree%
[23:55] %nbarclay% You went for the cheap price from GoW.
[23:55] %BigFree% sounds like BS to me
[23:55] %E_T% we are traders at heart and want to have good relations with our customers, both now and in the future
[23:55] %nbarclay% Lego got it from someone else.
[23:55] %BigFree% BS on the ND part of the deal
[23:55] %nbarclay% And the whole thing was a total disaster for us. The tech ended up costing us several times what it did anyone else.
[23:56] %BigFree%
[23:56] %BigFree% you should sell to everyone at once or none at all perhaps
[23:56] %nbarclay% I can understand your desire to get the best deal, but there's such a thing as killing the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak.
[23:56] %BigFree% agreed
[23:56] %E_T% we are sorry, but we did try to work on that, but were told that it was a final price
[23:56] %BigFree% yeah, i had heard that 200 was "final"
[23:57] %E_T% as we were paying other people (more than 1) for other tech, we just coudn't afford it at that time
[23:57] %nbarclay% According to the last posts to the GS board, 200 was final if you wanted the tech immediately.
[23:57] %BigFree% If we had know we could buy it from you at 75 gold, we would have.
[23:58] %BigFree% 10 turns later of course
[23:58] %E_T% we then looked elsewhere and found a beter price from GoW (who likely sold it to the others, too)
[23:58] %BigFree% yes, GoW is the ones who provbably whored your tech
[23:59] %nbarclay% If I'm remembering the cost correctly, 75 gold would have been less than 1/10 of what we paid to research it. To me, that seemed more like a joke than like a reasonable offer.
[23:59] %E_T% or even a little more sooner than 10 turns
[23:59] %E_T% well, GoW likely got that, 3 times
[23:59] %nbarclay% Especially since Togas worded it as if we needed to beat that price.
[23:59] %E_T% and they payed you what, 200
[23:59] %BigFree% It is really cheap, I was surprised, when i joined this game 6-7 weeks ago, that Techs were sold so cheaply
[00:00] %E_T% that has actually been GoW's fault
[00:00] %E_T% they are really whoring the tech and we still haven't found a way to beat them at it
[00:00] %BigFree% but when you have two Civs who hav a tech, and they oth want somnething for it, they are going to drive the prices down unless the cooperrate and fix the price.
[00:01] %BigFree% and when the price is fixed, you split the difference when people pay you for it.
[00:01] %E_T% we were actually the ones who had first started the 10 turn no resale clause, to try to keep GoW reigned in, but they still got around it
[00:02] %E_T% they would underbid quite a bit
[00:03] %BigFree% Would your team be interested in trading Maps?
[00:03] %E_T% and then we had to pay quite a bit for techs to get into the Middle ages and didn't get anything for Monarchy, which we put a lot of our effort into
[00:03] %E_T% yes, the maps will defiately be needed to get the lux trades going
[00:04] %nbarclay% We've already obtained a map of your continent. Vox sold it to us, and then turned around and used the gold to help pay for their attack on us.
[00:05] %BigFree% HAHA
[00:05] %E_T% it happens, we thought that they were fools to have started a war with you while they were still in despotism
[00:05] %BigFree% one of those laugh and cry at the same time comments
[00:06] %E_T% we didn't even understand why they didn't even want to get Monarchy from us for that, but we now know that they needed the cash for their war
[00:06] %nbarclay% I thought they were fools at first myself, but then I ran the numbers on troop support costs. It's actually not that bad a government for them, and they couldn't have afforded the time it would have taken to change governments.
[00:07] %E_T% true, but even with a few turns of anarchy, being in monarchy would have helped greatly
[00:08] %BigFree% I agree
[00:08] %nbarclay% Would it? Monarchy only provides free support for two units from towns size 6 and under. Despotism provides free support for four. (If I'm remembering right.)
[00:08] %BigFree% the commerce and shield in a GA are very noticble bewtween the two goverments
[00:09] %E_T% Yes, but you don't get the despotic reduction in sheilds
[00:09] %nbarclay% Do you have a map of Vox's territory?
[00:09] %E_T% or trade
[00:09] %BigFree% yes, we do
[00:09] %E_T% Yes, we got it about the time that the war started
[00:09] %E_T% we have seen your now cities
[00:09] %E_T% *new
[00:10] %BigFree% Inchon, Inchoff very creative
[00:10] %E_T%
[00:10] %E_T% should have been Inchin, Inchout....
[00:11] %E_T%
[00:11] %nbarclay% I assume you see the significance of the name Inchon?
[00:11] %E_T% I'm not naive...
[00:12] %nbarclay% It's not a question of naivity. It's a question of knowledge of history.
[00:12] %E_T% because you have royally screwed them...
[00:12] %E_T% On, I was thinking of something else, but yes
[00:13] %E_T% WWII
[00:13] %nbarclay% Korean war.
[00:13] %E_T% close, I'm not a war buff
[00:14] %BigFree% North invaded the South, right?
[00:14] %nbarclay% Right.
[00:14] %E_T% but I do now remember that they were loading and unloading almost on the same days
[00:14] %BigFree% I've heard about it, but have not read about it
[00:14] %E_T% first part of the war, IIRC
[00:14] %E_T% before they brought Macarther in to fight it
[00:15] %E_T% then they later fired him
[00:15] %nbarclay% The Inchon campaign was an amphibious landing behind North Korea's front lines.
[00:15] %nbarclay% MacArthur was the one who pulled off the Inchon landing.
[00:15] %nbarclay% But yes, he was fired later.
[00:15] %E_T% yes, that was it
[00:16] %E_T% yes, he wanted to Nuke China after they had come into the war
[00:16] %BigFree% he got fired cause he didn't have enough Luxes to satiate the people back home.
[00:16] %nbarclay%
[00:17] %E_T% we figure that you're researching Chivalry
[00:17] %BigFree% I though *** was Nationalism...
[00:18] %E_T% for the war effort, If we get this lux deal hammered out, how about letting us have first crack at it?
[00:18] %E_T% we know that GoW is researching it and that if ND wasn't, they are now after they got Feudalism from GoW
[00:19] * E_T still doesn't know why GoW sold them that
[00:19] %nbarclay% Actually, we've had our research on hold since we got Feudalism, originally using gold to rush troops and now building up some gold we haven't decided what to do with yet.
[00:20] %E_T% not even a specialist doing 1 turn research?
[00:20] %nbarclay% (One of the quirks of Republic, especially with a big standing army, is that you can build up a big cash stockpile and then do a lot of research in a hurry instead of researching a little at a time.)
[00:20] %BigFree% right
[00:20] %nbarclay% What's the point in a specialist doing 1-turn research if you know you'll have the tech in under 40 turns?
[00:21] %E_T% true
[00:21] %BigFree% you use deficit spending, though you have a abnk to draw from
[00:21] %nbarclay% But I would advise against placing bets on our researching Chivalry ourselves rather than buying it.
[00:21] %BigFree% with the deficit being for that turn, not what is in the treasury
[00:22] %BigFree% so you will buy from GoW?
[00:22] %nbarclay% Right. Build up a reserve and then research at a deficit. That provides a little more flexibility.
[00:23] %nbarclay% I won't say more than that the possibility of our buying it from GoW does exist.
[00:23] %E_T% true, except you have to keep all of those people happy, too
[00:23] %BigFree% It does, it worke nicely in Civ3
[00:23] %nbarclay% Keeping track of where the luxury slider will have to be set is definitely part of the process.
[00:24] %E_T% well, we can try to help you with that part
[00:24] %nbarclay% For the right price?
[00:24] %E_T% one thing that we are curious about, is what your intentions towards Vox will be
[00:25] %E_T% we have heard that they are trying to talk pease with you
[00:25] %E_T% and we know that they will likely not be able to repeate themselves for a very long time
[00:26] %BigFree% ahh, finish them off.
[00:26] %E_T% if ever
[00:26] %BigFree% send them to Trp Land
[00:26] %BigFree% *Trip
[00:26] * E_T sets mode: -m
[00:26] %nbarclay% With the current tone on the GS discussion boards, if Vox survives, it is unlikely to be on our continent. I hope that won't upset RP too much.
[00:27] %E_T% they have been good business partners of ours
[00:27] %BigFree% we will be bummed about losing a trade partner, but you guys seem like you could fill in where they will leave off.
[00:28] %nbarclay% And they used the proceeds of their sales to you to attack us, forcing us to waste the better part of our GA to build up our military instead of for economic investment.
[00:28] %E_T% they have been good when it comes to trade talks and have given on a few things when we have asked
[00:28] %E_T% Yes, and we are sorry about that
[00:29] %E_T% we had worked out deals with them sometime in advance of the war and didn't see this comming
[00:29] %nbarclay% The real problem, though, is that after their earlier treachery, what could they say that would assure us they won't try it again if an opportunity arises?
[00:30] %E_T% Part of our talks were ongoing when they first had established that city on our contenant, in old Luxia

(Continued next post)

[nbarclay]

(Continued)

[00:30] * MSS_BRB has joined #PTWTalks
[00:30] %E_T% the fact that you wooped their asses
[00:30] * MSS_BRB is now known as MSS
[00:30] * E_T sets mode: +o MSS
[00:30] %MSS% Hey folks..
[00:31] %E_T% Hey MSS, long time, no see
[00:31] %nbarclay% Did victory in World War I prevent Germany from starting the European part of WWII?
[00:31] %MSS% please continue
[00:31] %E_T% no, but it was a different situation
[00:31] * MSS waves at E_T
[00:31] * E_T waves back at MSS
[00:32] %nbarclay% Hi MSS.
[00:32] %MSS% What is the general point of discussion?
[00:32] %E_T% trades
[00:32] %MSS% Hey NB
[00:32] %nbarclay% The big thing RP wanted to talk about is the possibility of trading luxuries to us.
[00:32] * MSS nods
[00:32] %MSS% what are our options
[00:32] %BigFree% Lets try not to compare real world war issues to Civ 3, they are different in more respects than not.
[00:33] %nbarclay% They have two hooked up and are trying to find out whether they can get enough from us to make it worth making hooking up the other two a high priority.
[00:33] %MSS% it does confuse an issus
[00:33] %E_T% not only that, but to help open lines of communications, so that the little thing that happened in the public forum doesn't happen again
[00:33] %nbarclay% I'll grant that real world and Civ 3 can be very different, but Vox could provide a ready-made ally if someone else wants to attack us.
[00:34] %BigFree% true
[00:34] %E_T% very much so
[00:34] %BigFree% who's be dumb enough for that though
[00:34] %MSS% Are we arguing for peace with Vox and allowing them to share our contenent?
[00:34] %BigFree% *who'd
[00:34] %E_T% the one that we really have our eye on is lego
[00:34] %BigFree% yes
[00:35] %E_T% they even have it set in the CoL not to trade their map
[00:35] * MSS nods at legothrea=t
[00:35] %BigFree% Lego is prolly just laughing their asses off
[00:35] %BigFree% They are build happy right now
[00:35] %MSS% they are in a position of power
[00:35] %nbarclay% RP asked what our intentions were toward Vox and I told them that if Vox survives, it's unlikely to be on our continent.
[00:35] %MSS% Manifest Destiny
[00:35] %nbarclay% (I figure they'll find out sooner or later, if only when it happens. )
[00:35] %E_T% they are more than likely helping to keep the war going, AKAIK
[00:36] %MSS% They brought it on...
[00:36] %MSS% Lego helping Vox?%
[00:36] %nbarclay% Who brought it on?
[00:36] %MSS% Vox
[00:36] %E_T% we have word from GoW (they want to sell us their map) is that Legoland is very large
[00:36] %MSS% they unleashed us, the only way we can be pacified is with our contenent
[00:37] %MSS% pacified is teh wron word...
[00:37] %MSS% appeased is better
[00:37] %nbarclay% Aeson's run calculations on how many tiles there "should" be that we can't see, and those bear out the idea that Legoland is a big place.
[00:37] %BigFree% GS will be content with the continent
[00:37] %MSS% and that frightens me....
[00:38] %MSS% BF.. Yes
[00:38] %E_T% it also frightens us
[00:38] %BigFree% Lego is huge, no doubt, Im hoping for a lot of dester and Mountains
[00:38] %BigFree% *desert
[00:38] %BigFree% with jungle thrown in for measure
[00:38] %BigFree%
[00:39] %E_T% which is one reason that we are worried about losing a good trading parter with lux and not having one to fill the void, so to speak
[00:39] %E_T% Lego go quite a sum from us a while back and they have been skinflints for anything else
[00:39] %nbarclay% We're definitely interested in trading if the terms are fair.
[00:40] %BigFree% so are we
[00:40] %E_T% not lux, vox
[00:40] %E_T% same fate, wrong civ
[00:40] %nbarclay% Now if we can just agree on "fair".
[00:40] %MSS% Cant we go lux for lux for now?
[00:40] %BigFree% lets see if we can get some proposals sent back and forth
[00:41] %MSS% That sounds good
[00:41] %E_T% with the way that GoW had underpricesd the tech market, we really are trying to still figure the difinition of fair
[00:41] %nbarclay% MSS, we don't have a harbor yet, and at the moment, trading two of our luxuries for two of RP's won't help our luxury slider setting. So while I like the idea, it's not worth making a harbor a higher priority for.
[00:41] %BigFree% No kidding
[00:41] %MSS% gotcha NB
[00:42] %nbarclay% (We're working on a harbor, but it's not exactly in one of our most productive cities.)
[00:42] %BigFree% we understand
[00:42] %E_T% plus we will need your map, as the pathfinder routine need to "see" your harbor to get the trade initiated (from us to you)
[00:42] %MSS% So we are looking at cementing a deal in the neax 5-10 turns?
[00:42] %BigFree% just thro a couple of captured Voxian workers in there, drop to Desops then rush them bastards to death!
[00:43] %MSS% SICK
[00:43] %MSS% hell were relgious
[00:43] %BigFree%
[00:43] %E_T% we are still working on getting stuff connected up,. but if we don't have customers, then it's not a priority
[00:43] %BigFree% a catch 22
[00:43] %E_T% if we do have potential customers, then it does become a priority
[00:44] %MSS% What is a reasonable non-prioty time frame?
[00:44] %BigFree% we will get them hooked up at a reasonable rate anyhow, cause we know GS want to do a deal at aome point in the near fuutre.
[00:44] %E_T% MSS, we are also Non-Industrious and we have mointains that we are still crossing
[00:45] %MSS% and our harbor? care to divulge et of compleat
[00:45] * MSS nods at E_T
[00:45] %nbarclay% Do both sides need to see the trade route, or just one?
[00:45] %BigFree% I though only one, but i guess I could be wrong
[00:46] %E_T% If We through enough workers at this, it will still be atleast 8 turns to connect (travel time included)
[00:46] %MSS% Just one that I know of. Both need harbors. Kind of like trading maps befor Map Making
[00:46] %BigFree% right
[00:46] %BigFree% thta' the way I looked at it
[00:46] %MSS% so we have 10 turns to work this out in detail
[00:46] %BigFree% sounds fair
[00:46] %E_T% but we can have more than 2 luxes likely within 20 to 30 turns
[00:47] %E_T% You likely have our map, so you know what we have available in luxes
[00:47] %nbarclay% You're figuring 20-30 turns as the fastest you'd reasonably be able to hook up the remaining luxuries?
[00:47] %BigFree% or sooner depending on what is offered for them
[00:47] %MSS% We can cross tose bridges then. Assuming that we have no other source, we would love to trade
[00:48] %MSS% NB, how many luxes do we need to make a change in Lux slider?
[00:48] %BigFree% our workers have other priorities right now
[00:48] %E_T% at first cut, but we can see what else we can do to speed things up
[00:48] %E_T% like more than 3 workers on a flat tile will still only use 3 workers to road it
[00:49] %E_T% and then you have to wait for the next tile to get roaded before you can move to the next
[00:49] %nbarclay% It sounds like the additional luxuries wouldn't come into play until after our GA and the war with Vox are over. I don't know what the picture will be then; Aeson very possibly might if he's kept track from his earlier tests.
[00:49] %nbarclay% (That is, beyond the first two.)
[00:50] %E_T% but we should have 2 within 12 turns, the others, depends on what they are pulled from to get there
[00:50] %MSS% gotcha.... so it sounds like GS has some homework to do.
[00:50] %BigFree% ok, just let us know how important it i to you and how fat you'd need them.
[00:50] %nbarclay% In theory, a six-worker crew could use a leapfrog approach to advance one tile per turn. But in practice, the cost of that would probably be prohibitive.
[00:51] %E_T% especiall in workers
[00:51] %nbarclay% In workers, and in what else could be built instead of workers.
[00:51] %E_T% which we are still trying to gather..... we are geting there, but sometimes roleplaying has it's disadvanteges
[00:52] %BigFree% yes, with the 6 worker, 3 are idle each turn
[00:52] %nbarclay% No. Three are not idle.
[00:52] %E_T% I know what he's talking about
[00:52] %nbarclay% Three road, and then the other three move over the road.
[00:52] %MSS% We might be able to help with that (workers), I will check in with the team.
[00:52] %BigFree% oh, I was still thinking about the mountains
[00:53] %MSS% Mountains take time....
[00:53] %E_T% part of our problem had been terrain, lots of mountains and hills
[00:53] %nbarclay% Would RP be willing to allow GS workers with pike escorts onto your lands to help with the connection, if GS is interested?
[00:53] %E_T% like the silks are in jungles....
[00:53] %MSS% Good for production if you have the food...
[00:54] %E_T% That is something that we can't answer right nos
[00:54] %nbarclay% It's just an idea I came up with; I'm not sure how good or practical it would be.
[00:54] %E_T% *now
[00:54] %MSS% That way we get the industrial trat working for us....
[00:54] %MSS% Us= RP+GS
[00:55] %E_T% and that would likely have to be discussed and polled on, but I really don't think that the team would go for it
[00:55] %E_T% we will present it to them and we can see
[00:55] %nbarclay% Understood. I'm not sure whether we could spare the galleys soon enough to make it practical either.
[00:55] %E_T% as you said, it is an idea that we can explore
[00:56] %BigFree% it's possible, but the rest of the team doesn't like the idea of inving people over to as of yet, unsettled lands.
[00:56] %E_T% more than likely, the timeing would not be favorable, as buy the time that you got them here and such, we would likely be almost finished
[00:57] %BigFree% true
[00:57] %MSS% nod, a worker dal would need to be decided in the next turn or two to mak it worthwhile., But those other two luxes hook-up would benefit greatly
[00:58] %E_T% it would actually be faster for you to sell them to us, as being industial "slaves", they should work just as fast as our regular ones
[00:59] %BigFree% pssibly, we'll ask the team
[00:59] %BigFree% hmm
[00:59] %BigFree% never thought about that
[00:59] %E_T% and then as part of the deal, when we are done with connecting them, we trade them back
[00:59] %E_T% but IIRC, we still need that harbor/map
[00:59] %BigFree% a very novel idea
[00:59] %nbarclay% The speed of slaves is based on the buying civ's traits, not the selling civ's traits.
[01:00] %BigFree% yep, you are right
[01:00] %E_T% I tried to do that in one of my PBEM's and couldn't without those 2 things
[01:00] %nbarclay% It would be rather more than two turns before we'd have galleys to spare.
[01:00] %MSS% Hey this is good stuff and I am glad we are talking. My folks are in from NYC, so Ishould go and spend some time with them.
[01:00] %BigFree% LOL
[01:00] %BigFree% we are your =family damn it
[01:01] %E_T%
[01:01] %E_T% GS and RP needs to talk more often
[01:01] %nbarclay% Civs have to have cities on the same continent to trade workers.
[01:01] %MSS% hehe
[01:02] %E_T% we had almost the same kind of problem with GoW and then we talked it out and are good neighbors
[01:02] %MSS% Well my parents are cooing over my new son. Take care. Chat at ypu all latter....
[01:02] %BigFree% adios
[01:02] %nbarclay% Bye.
[01:02] %BigFree% take care
[01:02] %MSS% parting is syuch....
[01:02] %E_T% Hmmm, maybe we can get Vox to "gift" us one of their cities
[01:03] %BigFree% LOL
[01:03] %MSS% TWISTED E_T......
[01:03] %E_T% Yes I am....
[01:03] %E_T%
[01:03] %MSS% bye
[01:03] * MSS has left #PTWTalks
[01:03] %E_T% later
[01:04] %E_T% let MSS know that Congrats on his son
[01:04] %nbarclay% If he reads the log, you just did.
[01:05] %E_T% 4 oh, a quick reminder, when you post this log in your forum, make sure that you edit any ISDG things that can be construed as a sensitive nature
[01:06] %BigFree% any other concerns or questions from GS?
[01:06] %nbarclay% Will do.
[01:06] %E_T% ty
[01:07] %nbarclay% I just looked at the map, and with where most of the luxuries that need hooked up seem to be, I don't think the idea of our bringing over workers is going to be viable enough to be worth asking your team about.
[01:07] %E_T% I thing we are done, my ass is a peice of lead now.....
[01:07] %E_T% that's what I though, too
[01:07] %BigFree% ok nathan
[01:08] %nbarclay% I can't think of anything else that needs discussed. I do very definitely like the direction relations between our teams seem to be going now.
[01:08] %BigFree% as do we.
[01:08] %E_T% same here
[01:08] %BigFree% maybe we had the wrong people talking before
[01:08] %BigFree% edit that out though :P
[01:08] %nbarclay% Or the wrong people not talking?
[01:08] %BigFree% LOL
[01:08] %E_T% Trip could have been in on a historic event, but he couldn't keep his mouth shut
[01:09] %BigFree% HAHA
[01:09] %E_T% so much for a passive observer
[01:09] %nbarclay% So shall we sign off now?
[01:10] %BigFree% sure, this cahnne is permanent now, so any time you can drtop by is fine
[01:10] %E_T% history is full of the wrong people talking or not talking at the wrong times
[01:10] %BigFree% have you choose to log this nathan?
[01:11] %BigFree% do we need to send you a copy?
[01:11] %E_T% do you need us to send you a log?
[01:11] %E_T% crosspost
[01:12] %nbarclay% What I normally do is copy and paste from the screen buffer, so I don't have to set up logging in advance. Actually, I haven't even figured out how to on the program I use (IceChat).
[01:12] %BigFree% we will send you a copy, it is much easier that way
[01:12] %nbarclay% Okay, thanks.
[01:13] %BigFree% try getting mIRC
[01:13] %BigFree% just give me your addy
[01:13] %E_T% we'll send you a long, I still have you e-mail addy, you just need to edit out the ISDG stuff and we'll be o.k.
[01:13] %nbarclay% As I recall, you're supposed to pay for mIRC if you use it for any length of time. IceChat is completely free.
[01:13] %nbarclay% Will do. Thanks.
[01:14] %E_T% You can register it, but.....
[01:14] %E_T%
[01:14] %BigFree% ok then, goodnight
[01:14] %nbarclay% I feel better about using a program that's truly free, and IceChat works well enough.
[01:14] %E_T% nbarclay(AT)hiwaay.net
[01:14] %nbarclay% Thanks for a nice chat.
[01:14] %E_T% right?
[01:15] %nbarclay% Right.
[01:15] %BigFree%
[01:15] %BigFree% adios
[01:15] %E_T% later
[01:15] %nbarclay% Bye.
[01:15] * nbarclay has quit IRC (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net )
[01:15] %E_T% back in a moment
Session Close: Mon Jun 09 01:15:38 2003

[OPD]

chat with rp about 12 hours ago.
This first bit isn't that important just shooting the breeze a bit.

Session Start: Sun Jun 08 20:57:52 2003
Session Ident: #PTWTalks
[20:57] * Now talking in #PTWTalks
[20:58] * E_T_outside_smoking is now known as E_T
[20:58] * BigFree sets mode: +o E_T
[20:58] *E_T> who is going to be here?
[20:58] *BigFree> I talked to OPD
[20:58] *BigFree> he may show up
[20:58] *BigFree> I just sent him the info
[20:58] *BigFree> I asked if he could chat and he said when, then I sent this
cahnnel info
[20:59] *E_T> do we want the big harry eyeball here?
[20:59] *BigFree> we'll see
[20:59] *BigFree> LOL
[20:59] *BigFree> as a MOD
[20:59] *BigFree> LOL
[20:59] *BigFree> sure
[20:59] *BigFree> he can come
[21:04] * Trip- has joined #ptwtalks
[21:04] *Trip-> what's goin down in here :P
[21:04] *E_T> waiting for GS to show
[21:04] *Trip-> ahhh
[21:04] *Trip-> fun
[21:04] * Trip- is now known as Trip[gone]
[21:04] *Trip[gone]> I'll be back later
[21:05] * Retrieving #PTWTalks info...
[21:05] *Trip[gone]> say hello for me :P
[21:05] *E_T> Your just here as the big harry eyeball....
[21:05] *E_T>
[21:06] * BigFree sets mode: +o Trip[gone]
[21:10] * opd has joined #PTWTalks
[21:10] *opd> lo
[21:10] *E_T> hello there
[21:10] *opd> Finally made it
[21:11] *opd> was on Undernet
[21:11] *E_T> Yes, it's the back up...
[21:11] * E_T sets mode: +o opd
[21:11] *opd> So whats new then guys
[21:11] *E_T> but with polychat back up...
[21:12] *opd> Do you chat alot in RP?
[21:12] *E_T> we feel that GS and RP need to communicate more often than has
previously been done in th epast
[21:12] *opd> Very true
[21:12] *opd> there is alot of changes underway in GS
[21:12] *E_T> RP is almost always has someone in our chatroom
[21:13] *opd> concerning the way diplomacy is carried out
[21:13] *opd> really?
[21:13] *E_T> that and just general communication
[21:13] *opd> I should have joined RP methinks
[21:13] *E_T> we have a lot of fun at times
[21:14] *opd> GS is very different to the SPDG
[21:14] *E_T> we even roleplayed the poly crash and the game crash
[21:14] *opd> lol
[21:14] *opd> BTW due to GS regulations I've kinda gotta record this is that ok
[21:14] *E_T> we called the poly crash, the Great storm of whatever year it was.
[21:14] *BigFree> hola
[21:15] *E_T> We have no problems with you recording the chat
[21:15] *opd> ok so how do I save teh chat
[21:15] *opd> I did know once
[21:15] *E_T> just log it
[21:15] *BigFree> for me it saves automatically
[21:15] *E_T> are you using mIRC?
[21:16] *opd> yup. How do I log
[21:16] *opd> no wait have figured it out.
[21:16] *E_T> the little box on the top of the screen that says PTWTalks, right
click and check logging
[21:17] *opd> cheers
[21:17] *E_T>
[21:17] *BigFree> cool
[21:17] *E_T> are you setup now?
[21:17] *opd> yup
[21:17] *BigFree> we can always send you one too
[21:18] *opd> So is there someone in this channel at all times
[21:18] *E_T> yes, if you so wish, just to get the first few lines...
[21:18] *BigFree> no, I just set it up
[21:18] *E_T> not this one, but the RP one, yes
[21:18] *opd> Can anyone join the RP one?
[21:18] *BigFree> no only RP'ers
[21:19] *BigFree> it has a password on it
[21:19] *opd> Is the password sandwich?
[21:19] *BigFree> LOL
[21:19] *BigFree> Bologna Sandwich
[21:19] *BigFree> or Ham Sandwich, I forget...
[21:19] *BigFree>
[21:19] *E_T> but I imagine that BF can set up a room for specific GS-RP chats
for a later talks, etc
[21:19] *BigFree> at any time
[21:19] *BigFree> I can leave this one up too
[21:20] *BigFree> we can make this permanent if youlike
[21:20] *opd> Yeah cool.
[21:20] *E_T> Oh, just to let you know, Trip is here to record for postarity
(not his posterior), our talks....
[21:21] *E_T> I would rather that we make a different room for future use
[21:21] *opd> So whats the deal with GoW they want us to select their leader
[21:21] * ChanServ sets mode: +tr
[21:21] *E_T> call it GS-RPtalks or some such
[21:21] *E_T> I think that GF did a shiber
[21:22] *opd> Ok E_T prob best contact MSS he's in charge of FA now
[21:22] *opd> Shiber?
[21:22] * BigFree changes topic to 'GS-RPtalks '
[21:22] * opd changes topic to 'RP-GStalks '
[21:22] *E_T> Remember the first few weeks of the PTWDG, shiber posted in the
open forum something that was supposed to go in our private one?
[21:23] *opd> lol sry I just figured out how to do that
[21:23] *opd> lol wasn't around for that
[21:23] *E_T> we all had a big laugh about it
[21:23] *E_T> And I had actually done one, too. But Edited it before anyone had
read it....
[21:24] *opd> Don't see you guys in the SPDG much anymore?
[21:24] *opd> Did you hear about the chat on sat
[21:24] *E_T> Too busy with Real life, for me that is
[21:24] *E_T> No, what happened?
[21:25] *opd> We took 2 cities and can sue for 4 more
[21:25] *E_T> damn
[21:25] *E_T> they are doing very good for a deity game
[21:25] *opd> I think were doing better than the original
[21:25] *opd> Gk has really turned things around
[21:25] *E_T> I had attended a couple of chats, but didn't like the speed of
play
[21:26] *E_T> I'm just spoiled from teh other game I guess
[21:26] *opd> not like in the olden days
[21:26] *E_T> I like to download the save every turn
[21:26] *opd> I may be doing a chat this week
[21:27] *opd> If so I'm going to race through it to make GK look really slow
[21:27] *E_T> and then look at things (whick messes up the RNG) and then
download the next turn fresh
[21:28] *BigFree> At Diety, there's not much of a chnace still, but thing s are
begining to look better
[21:28] *E_T> but If i "play" along, I can't do that as much without having a
thing or 2 different
[21:28] *opd> One change I've noticed is that pretty much everything is done in
the chats these days
[21:28] *E_T> But then again, that's my style of play
[21:28] *opd> BF I think were going to do it.
[21:28] *BigFree> I hope so
[21:29] *BigFree> I did have my doubts early on.
[21:29] *BigFree> If we didn't win tha first battle, it would be over now
[21:29] *E_T> of course, it does take time for everyone to get the save, but
then, if someone can't make the chat for whatever reason, they have the saves to
look at later
[21:29] *E_T> Anyways, communication
[21:30] *opd> ok

[OPD]

continued. They all disappear for about 10 mins at the end of this section.

[21:29] *E_T> Anyways, communication
[21:30] *opd> ok
[21:30] *E_T> We at RP feel that we need to talk
[21:30] *E_T> grrrr, brb
[21:30] *opd> smoke break?
[21:30] *BigFree> Did you guys ever talk peace at all with Vox since this war
has begun?
[21:31] *opd> Yes
[21:31] *opd> BTW I must mention
[21:31] *opd> I don not represent GS in any official capacity
[21:32] *BigFree> sure
[21:32] *opd> Some things I cannot tell you and somethings I can only give you
my personal opinion on
[21:32] *BigFree> who's going to be your ambassador if the current one wuits?
[21:32] *E_T> had to help in the kitchen, dinner is just about ready...
[21:32] *opd> Don't know.
[21:33] *opd> I think DeepO may stay on
[21:33] *BigFree> ok, cool
[21:33] *opd> it could be me or maybe zeit, shiber or MSS
[21:33] *opd> only time will tell
[21:33] *BigFree> pass him the info for this channel if you would
[21:33] *opd> will do
[21:33] *BigFree> who's MSS?
[21:34] *opd> ManicStarSeed
[21:34] *E_T> hmmm, I have sometimes had trouble reading his PM's when we did
get them
[21:34] *BigFree> thnaks
[21:34] *E_T> DeepO that is
[21:34] *opd> I can bring that up if you like
[21:34] *E_T> sorry, I have to go
[21:34] * E_T is now known as E_T_dinnertime
[21:34] *opd> Ok
[21:35] *BigFree> so what kind of peace was offered?
[21:35] *BigFree> was it recent long ago pr both?
[21:35] *E_T_dinnertime> talk to him about the possible lux trade and what we
will need for that
[21:35] *BigFree> sure
[21:35] *BigFree> eat and enjoy
[21:36] *opd> gotta check forum
[21:36] *BigFree> sure
[21:36] *opd> BB et
[21:37] *opd> hmmmn
[21:37] *opd> not to sure about the peace with vox as wasn't around much
[21:37] *BigFree> oh, you just joined GS recently?
[21:38] *opd> There has always been alot of on going talk about what would be
acceptable for peace
[21:38] *BigFree> I joined RP about 6 weeks ago myself
[21:38] *opd> no IIRC correctly was one of the first to join GS
[21:38] *opd> back when it was all about beating trip
[21:38] *BigFree> oh, you mean you have not been that active...
[21:38] *BigFree> LOL
[21:39] *opd> thats right have been internetless
[21:39] *BigFree>
[21:39] *BigFree> so are you guys now offering peace to Vox?
[21:39] *opd> We have had talks around peace with Vox recently
[21:40] *BigFree> CP
[21:40] *E_T_dinnertime> anything promicing?
[21:40] *E_T_dinnertime> back for just a moment
[21:40] *BigFree> don't type with your mouth full..
[21:40] *BigFree>
[21:40] *opd> The concensus view is still too much that we were badly screwed
over by vox
[21:40] *E_T_dinnertime> it's almost ready, I had to make the salads...
[21:41] *BigFree> my diiner
[21:41] *BigFree> is ready too
[21:41] *BigFree> NY steak
[21:41] *opd> Alot of us are unsure about peace aslong as the chance of them
doing it again.
[21:41] *BigFree> that would be a concern
[21:41] *opd> is still there
[21:41] *E_T_dinnertime> we agree, but we also don't want to lose a good trading
partner (to us that is)like vox
[21:41] *E_T_dinnertime> not atleast without someone to replace them
[21:41] *BigFree> LOL
[21:42] *opd> Are you aware of the peace talks going on between GS and Vox
[21:42] *BigFree> we have some lux we can trae you, but you don't have a harbor
yet
[21:42] *opd> don't we?
[21:42] *E_T_dinnertime> We don't think that they would try to do anything like
that again, atleast for a very long time
[21:42] *BigFree> nope, we can't trade with you on the screen
[21:43] *E_T_dinnertime> If you do go with peace, what will their status be?
[21:43] *E_T_dinnertime> we don't know of one, that's the most imprtant thing
[21:44] *opd> hmmmn they will not pose a threat to GS
[21:44] * Togas has joined #ptwtalks
[21:44] *opd> lo togas
[21:44] *Togas> hello
[21:44] *E_T_dinnertime> If you do have a harbor, without some form of map to
let us know were it's at, we can't trade to you
[21:44] *BigFree> brb, getting my dinner
[21:44] * E_T_dinnertime sets mode: +o Togas
[21:45] *opd> We can certainly arrange a harbour and map linking
[21:45] *E_T_dinnertime> 2 people having dinner, and togas just finished his
[21:45] *BigFree> we should be the food team!
[21:45] *BigFree> Spanish Food Team
[21:46] *opd> We are aware that you helped vox out in some way at the beginning
of the war.
[21:46] *E_T_dinnertime> please, Hey OPD, have you joined a PTWDG II team yet?
Join team sunshine...
[21:46] *opd> Am a master. I could always switch though
[21:47] *opd> It is my view that Vox were seen as long term trading partners for
yourselves
[21:47] *E_T_dinnertime> we had trade dealings with Vox, but as I said, they
have been very good trade partners with RP
[21:47] *E_T_dinnertime> so the begining of the war and our deals just happend
to coinside
[21:48] *opd> So vox status
[21:49] *opd> I wouldn't count on them as anything other than a tech at the
start of a new era.
[21:49] *opd> And even that may be in doubt
[21:49] *E_T_dinnertime> as did deals that were already made that occured after
the war had started, but were finalized long before the war had started
[21:49] *E_T_dinnertime> one of the things that RP doesn't want to to renig on a
deal and then be called bad things from it
[21:50] *E_T_dinnertime> I have to eat, back in a while
[21:51] *opd> Ever drink desperados?
[21:52] *opd> tastes too limey
[21:53] *opd> So anyway
[21:53] *opd> anyone there?
[21:53] *opd> ????????
[21:53] *opd> oh how rude
[21:54] *opd> and I thought we were making progress
[21:54] *opd> still pinging at 1 sec
[21:54] *opd> ok back in 5 mins
[21:54] *opd> were just about to get somewhere
[21:56] *Togas> OPD, sorry!
[21:56] *Togas> I'm not sure where the other two are, but I'm doing the save
right now in another window
[21:57] *Togas> If you have any questions, let me know.
[22:03] *opd> You there?
[22:04] *Togas> yes
[22:04] *Togas> but trying to finish up save ... I have houseguests right now,
we're going bowling shortly
[22:04] *BigFree> back
[22:04] *opd> can we continue this some other time?
[22:04] *Togas> so I've been mostly idle
[22:04] *opd> wb BF
[22:04] *BigFree> I can talk now
[22:04] *BigFree> sorry about that
[22:04] *opd> is ok
[22:05] *Togas> please keep chatting, I'm going to take screenshots now, then
send off the save.

[OPD]

Last bit. Didn't know that my irc said that when I leave.

22:05] *BigFree> let mne review what has been said so I can continue
[22:06] *opd> cannot stay much longer
[22:06] *BigFree> ok, fished reading
[22:06] *opd> it's 3 am here and have been at work all day
[22:06] *BigFree> we were dealing with Vox well before the war
[22:07] *opd> ok
[22:07] *BigFree> and the made deals before the war even started with us
[22:07] *opd> thats understood
[22:07] *BigFree> we have not made any deals since the war has begun
[22:07] *opd> so now perhaps you are looking for a new trading partner
[22:07] *BigFree> the war took us by complete surprise
[22:08] *BigFree> maybe they thought they couldn't truyst us to tell us that
they were going to attack you
[22:08] *BigFree> I guess they could have thought GS and RP were buddies
[22:08] *opd> Do you know if any other civs played a role in the war?
[22:08] *BigFree> except for that skirmish with GoW, no
[22:09] *opd> How did lego react tot he war
[22:09] *Togas> OPD, I think that GS has been far too supicious. If you guys
would have just talked to any of us and kept normal relations during the war,
there wouldn't be all of this paranoia and finger pointing.
[22:09] *BigFree> How does Lego react to anything, they don't, they are happy
being all alone to be able to build, they are not intersted in concerniong
themselvs on other Civ's affairs.
[22:10] *opd> there is a belief among some people that vox had a puppet master
[22:10] *Togas> That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
[22:10] *BigFree> I think Vox took it all upon themselves to do this
[22:11] *BigFree> They knew they had a certain window in which to use thier
Immortals
[22:11] *opd> I must note that this is not at all a stumbling block towards
trades and relations between RP and GS
[22:11] *BigFree> I think you guys hsould have been more prepared for it,
frankly.
[22:11] *Togas> if we were in on it, they would have been a Monarchy before they
attacked you.
[22:11] *opd> yeah probably
[22:11] *Togas> E_T was crying over the fact that we couldn't get them to buy
Monarchy after they attacked you
[22:12] *BigFree> He was, it was fuuny, even after the fact
[22:12] *opd> it's just that they recieved alot of money to upgrade to immortals
[22:12] *opd> but thats all in the past
[22:12] *opd> no onw is in anyway pointing any fingers
[22:12] *BigFree> maybe they've been banking all their cash for a while
[22:13] *opd> perhaps
[22:13] *BigFree> All I know is that we have two Civ's on Estonia that we wnat
to trade with, it hurts us not too.
[22:13] *opd> so anyway I really don't think we should concern ourselves with
that
[22:13] *BigFree> agreed
[22:13] *opd> it matters not
[22:14] *BigFree> what kind of luxeries do you guys have to trade?
[22:14] *opd> don't know
[22:15] *opd> well to tell you the truth I can't say
[22:15] *opd> at this point anyway
[22:15] *BigFree> np
[22:15] *BigFree> just be aware that we want to trade some with you guys, if you
are interested
[22:15] *opd> We would be
[22:16] *BigFree>
[22:16] *opd> what are you proposing
[22:16] *BigFree> but, i think you need a harbor first
[22:16] *opd> yeah
[22:16] *opd> How are you for resources?
[22:16] *BigFree> I'm proposing we swap luxeries for now, but maybe more..
[22:17] *opd> are you reserching any tech
[22:17] *BigFree> we are fine we have extras we'd like to take advatage of and
trae, as would any Civ.
[22:17] *BigFree> not really reaseraching anything yet, we just buy it form
opther's for now, we are a porr nation. LOL
[22:19] *BigFree> what are you guys reaserching; what can we buy from you in the
fuutre?
[22:22] *opd> there are lots of things that we could research.
[22:22] *opd> what are you interested in having.
[22:22] *E_T_dinnertime> back, salad, big baked potato and a thick Ribeye steak
with mushrooms.... Yummy!!
[22:22] * E_T_dinnertime is now known as E_T
[22:22] *opd> WB et
[22:22] *BigFree> anything really, at this popint
[22:23] *opd> like I said I don't know
[22:23] *opd> I think gow are trying to pre sell chiv but we could easily
research it before they get it
[22:23] *E_T> we will have Ivory, Silks and spices that we can soon trade
[22:24] *opd> wow nice
[22:24] *E_T> but as we don't have links to most of the other civs, we don't
have anyone to trade with
[22:24] *opd> are there any lux on voxs territory?
[22:25] *opd> A link can easily be arranged
[22:25] *E_T> so we have put off getting extras connected until we have a
potenial customer for them
[22:25] *Togas> RP save was sent to Vox
[22:25] *Togas> I'm just about to head out. Please continue discussions.
[22:26] *opd> bb togas
[22:26] *Togas> take care
[22:26] *opd> u2
[22:26] *opd> ok so heres the situation
[22:27] * Togas has left #ptwtalks
[22:27] *opd> I don't speak for GS
[22:27] *opd> and the way things work it's hard to know people opinion on
certain things
[22:28] *opd> from what has been said
[22:28] *opd> you are suggesting lux trading
[22:28] *opd> I can bring this to my people and we can come to a decision
[22:28] *opd> I afraid I cannot commit to anything really
[22:29] *opd> other than that I will try to make this happen
[22:30] *opd> although the way things are I think GS will go for this
[22:31] *E_T> We can work at getting extras of our luxes connected for trades
[22:31] *opd> That would be very beneficial to both of us,
[22:31] *E_T> as we are still trying to get out land settler and teh cities that
have luxes connected
[22:32] *opd> although I think research is where GS would really like to have
good relations
[22:32] *E_T> You have likely gotten a map of us from GoW, you will know that we
have a lot of mountains to fight through with non-industru\ious workers
[22:33] *E_T> we do know from our intel that you have a city or 2 that is at
very large sizes
[22:33] *opd> you can see EOTS on top 5?
[22:33] *E_T> so you must be running at very high lux taxs and or using
specialist
[22:34] *opd> The internal structure of GS is amazing.
[22:34] *E_T> I think so, be we have goten some rumors from the others as to
some of what might be going on
[22:35] *E_T> I do know that GoW was wanting to sell us a map that had small
area of yours, but their price was a bit too high for us at the time
[22:35] *opd> not the best land but a very good use of it
[22:35] *opd> yeah thats pretty much useless
[22:36] *opd> how much they charging?
[22:36] *E_T> and the last map that we did get from Vox showed one of your
cities, on the coast, but it doesn't have a harbor
[22:37] *opd> ok I gotta go in a min
[22:37] *E_T> I really can't remember, as I wasn't involed with those talks and
didn't read those threads (too many other things going on)
[22:37] *opd> perhaps you'd like to have another get together perhaps with
another GSer aswell.
[22:37] *E_T> sure, when would you like?
[22:37] *opd> Must test the water as to what other people think.
[22:38] *opd> don't know about time will have to speak to the powers that be.
[22:38] *E_T> O.k., do you have Bigfree's e-mail addy?
[22:38] *opd> no
[22:38] *BigFree> Pm's work for me as well
[22:38] *opd> ok
[22:39] *opd> gotta go then guys
[22:39] *BigFree> but here's my addy : bigfree1(at)attbi.com
[22:39] *opd> nice to talk to you
[22:39] *BigFree> you too
[22:39] *E_T> let me dig it up, as we like to email and PM at the same time
(PM's can get lost if you don't log on to Poly, but e-mails can't really be
ignored, IMHO)
[22:39] *opd> I for one am glad we had this discussion
[22:39] *BigFree> definatley
[22:39] *BigFree> I just wished I could type better!
[22:40] *BigFree> and faster
[22:40] *E_T> I'm at e_t_1(at)mpinet.com
[22:40] *E_T> do you need us to send you any of this conversation?
[22:41] *opd> no can save it
[22:41] *opd> ok see you soon
[22:41] *BigFree> adios
[22:41] *E_T> alright, just wasn't sure you got the very first part is all
[22:41] *BigFree> this channel is permannet now
[22:41] *opd> oh ****
[22:41] *E_T> have fun in jolly ol'....
[22:41] *opd> forgot to start logging
[22:41] *BigFree> oops
[22:42] *opd> can you send me a copy?
[22:42] *E_T> what's your e-mail addy, I'll send it to you
[22:42] *BigFree> I can send to you, what is your email?
[22:42] *opd> dwyerowen(at)hotmail.com
[22:42] *opd> cheers
[22:42] *opd> ok see you
[22:42] * opd has quit IRC (Quit: **** you )
[22:43] *BigFree> i hope that wasn't meant for us. LOL
[22:43] *E_T> I have to quit this channel to attach the log
[22:43] *BigFree> ok
[22:43] *BigFree> I'll stay
[22:43] *E_T> no, he has that as a standard for mIRC
Session Close: Sun Jun 08 22:43:47 2003

(Edit had to replace all < with * so that the names would show up. Same for the other two)

[OPD]

Email sent to ET and Bigfree suggesting a meeting.

Owen Dwyer wrote:

Hello guys,

thanks for sending me the log save BTW. For the first time I actually saw what I say when I disconnect!! Don't know who did that to my IRC but it wasn't me. Can't belive I've been using IRC for the last year saying Fyou everytime I quit.

Anyway how are things in the land of RP? Would it be ok if I were to drop by tommorrow with Shiber?
Time zones are confusing but how would some time between 1200 and 1800 GMT sound? If not some time in the US evening could be arranged if this is better for you?

In particular I'd like to cement some deal regarding luxuries, talk a bit about the war with vox and maybe talk a bit about the politics on bob.

opd