DIPLO: RollPlay Team contact LOG

[OPD]

REply from ET


I have no problem with that. If Polychat isn't back up, then we will meet on Undernet.

Don't forget, the room is #PTWTalks with the password as Together. We also had MSS and Nbarclay show up, after you had left, the other night, see if they can also try to join us.

E_T

[OPD]

from bigfree

Hi OPD, I'm The FAM at RP. Please direct all of you correspondence to me, thanks.

I have the channel open that you were on before. Drop by at any time to see if I'm there or someone else. I'm often there, but sometimes I'm out, just idle till I'm back. If you see me there just type "BigFree" and I will get a notice that you are there. Try around 12-2PM PST

The channel and pasword is: /join #PTWTalks Sandwich

This is the GS-RP Embassy from now on.

See you there.

BigFree




-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: PTWDG
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:02:05 +0000
From: "Owen Dwyer" To: e_t_1



Hello again.

Would youlike to suggest a time for todays meeting (it doesn't even have to
be today if you like).

Also the polychat seems to be back up.

opd

[OPD]

Chat with RP. Finished a few mins ago.
Zeit, Shiber, Togas, Bigfree and opd present at one time or another.

* Now talking in #PTWTalks
* Topic is 'Welcome GS, Please notify us if anyone shows up'
* Set by E_T on Thu Jun 12 11:44:27
*opd> lo
*opd> sorry
*BigFree> np
*opd> connection screwed up
*BigFree>
* BigFree sets mode: +o opd
*opd> hope you didn't wait for me
*BigFree> Togas is still not back
*opd> lol ok
*opd> wanna give him 5 more mins?
* opd is now known as opdaway
* TogasAWAY is now known as Togas
*Shiber> Welcome back!
*Togas> hello
*Togas> what have I missed?
*BigFree> nad, we wait for you of course
*Shiber> Well, I was recalling Donnie Darko.
*Shiber> I dunno about the others.
*Shiber> Something came up (RL), I'll be away for the next 5-10 minutes. Sorry.
* Togas is reading back through the log...
* Shiber is now known as Shiber[BRB-10mins]
*Togas> that's fine, will give me a chance to catchup
* opdaway is now known as opd
*opd> lo togas
*Togas> hello.
*Togas> Do you guys officially rep GS or are you sort of just informal ambassadors?
*opd> As of today I think I'm the ambassador to RP
*BigFree> woot
*BigFree> congrats
*Togas> cool
*opd> DeepO posted something along those lines
*Togas> I'm not sure if ET or BigFree has asked in the past about a WM swap. That might be a bit extreme for security reasons.
*opd> Shibers here to make sure I don't give away GS secrets
*BigFree> LOL
*BigFree> the enforcer
*opd> GS are highly unlikely to ever give away terriroy map
*Togas> We have a single galley in the area. We're planning to send her out to find uncharted lands.
*opd> yeah we noticed
*Togas> we'd like to "find" your coastal cities so that we can get a traderoute set up
*opd> I'm not sure but I think we can trade as we can see your coastal cities
*opd> good news on the harbour front
*opd> probably about 4 turns
*Togas> not bad at all. We were expecting 10 turns or so
*Togas> we just started roading some surplus luxes
*opd> Do you have a map of other civs land
*Togas> other civs?
*opd> specifically ND and GoW
*Togas> We have all of our continent, and some old GoW exploration maps of Lego
*opd> Then you'll probably be aware of how things are likely to work out regarding luxs exchange
* Shiber[BRB-10mins] is now known as Shiber
*Shiber> back
*Shiber> reading the backlog
*opd> wb
*Togas> We have a good idea.
*opd> thats good
*Shiber> ok, i'm up-to-dat
*Shiber> *date
*opd> talking straight lux for lux exchange
*Shiber> Oh, before that
*Togas> Shiber -- Trigun is pretty good. In the beginning it's a bit too silly, but later on it gets more involved.
*Shiber> regarding RP's galley
*Togas> We're happy to do a straight lux for lux trade ... 1 for 1 or even 2 for 2.
*Shiber> Yes, I noticed. The part where Vash did this sortof-wire-kungfu jump over the big guy with robotic implants was pretty out-of-place
*Shiber> Anyway, you're galley,
*Shiber> *your galley
*Shiber> You say that you look for uncharted lands.
*Togas> we don't have a map of GS.
*Shiber> Well, we have the lighthouse, which means that we have a greater ability to search for uncharted lands, and we've found nothing.
*Shiber> Yes, I know. Actually, we'd like to keep it this way. I'll explain.
*Shiber> Currently, lux trading is possible between our nations since we can see your coastal cities.
*Shiber> So you have no urgent need to chart our coast, at least not for reasons involving trade
*Togas> If you can offer luxes, that's good to know. We cannot offer luxes or resources as our interface tells us we have no trade route
*Shiber> Now, you know that relations between our teams have turned a bit unpleasant lately
*Togas> they've always been poor.
*Shiber> Togas, yes, I was thinking of coordinating deals with your team and then making the in-game offer on our side (that would serve the same purpose)
*Shiber> Anyway, I fear that if you continue to chart our coast, it might be suspected by the hawks in our team as preparations for an assault
*BigFree> Shiber, GS has Maps of all of Bob, you really begrudge RP the chance to Map your shores after you have our Map?
*Shiber> You know how some of us can get paranoid
*BigFree> that is plain unfounded
*Shiber> BigFree, we don't mind if you buy Vox's map. They have charted much of our inner lands and coasts.
*Togas> I can count the hawks on my team on my index finger.
* zeit has joined #PTWTalks
*Shiber> hi zeit!
*zeit> hi there
*zeit> came as soon as I heard
*Shiber> Oh. I should have called you. Sorry...
*Togas> What I don't get is why GS seems to think of us as a threat, and then publicly complains that we have so much land to ourselves?
*Togas> we haven't even settled our own lands, why would we want to build a billion gallies and go invade someone else, especially after Vox's 40 + immortals got their asses kicked?
*BigFree> LOL
*zeit> Our concern right now is keeping the sea lanes open
*Togas> we have luxuries. We have lots of space. We aren't going to go starting trouble around the world, we are VERY happy with the land we have.
*opd> can you see what were doing with our galleys
*zeit> as we're transfering troops up and down the coast
*BigFree> well, since you have the Light house, it's not hard to go around
*Togas> we can see your gallies on the west coast
*zeit> your galley(s) could block our path
*Togas> you guys can INVADE us with the Great lighthouse, and we can't even make it across to you without losing 1/2 our ships
*Shiber> That's true.
*Togas> we have to travel all the way up the east coast just to get to Estonia
*Shiber> (referring both to togas's and zeit's remarks)
*Togas> thinking of us as a "threat" is silly.
*Shiber> I can relate to what you say, but we didn't consider GoW a threat either until they nearly took one of our cities in a combined maneuver with Vox.
*zeit> The current "threat" in your galley's positioon is further landing operations
*Togas> We have commissioned the Nina, Pina, and Santa Maria to bring back to us maps of the known world.

[OPD]

Togas almost seems to be kissing ass sometimes with comments like you could take us out easy...

*Togas> further landing operations??
*Shiber> As far as we know, you might have been asked by Vox to help limit our ability to make landings deep into Voxian territory.
*zeit> on Vox's heartland
*Shiber> I'm not pointing any fingers, I'm just explaining why we became so anxious.
*opd> wow
*Togas> it's just that you guys are pretty smart.
*Shiber> To top all that, your galley came without warning. While I can't say that you're obliged to let us know if you send a galley to chart our coasts, I think that you should at least do so, for the sake of friendship
*Togas> I don't see why you guys should be so paranoid.
*Shiber> Well, we got backstabbed. Twice. Wouldn't you be paranoid too?
*Togas> no
*Togas> I'd be realistic
*Shiber> We never believed that Vox could come up with such a force. They did.
*Togas> you guys already slaughtered the GoW landing party
*zeit> The GoW's force could have easily been something more of two elite horsemen
*Shiber> That was partially a matter of luck.
*Shiber> If GoW had landed a spear and a horse, the result of that minor invasion might have been a lot different.
*BigFree> GS sent a Galley to peak at our coast a little while back, i don't remember getting a note about that then.
*zeit> at that time, every offensive unit we could have spared was in great need.
*Shiber> At the same turn, a large number of immortals have approached another one of our cities. We were spread and we had to deal with 8 units if I recall correctly.
*Shiber> There was room for one or two losses, IIRC. There was one, against Voxian forces, but a spear instead of a horse could have meant two more (= failure, loss of a city)
*zeit> re our galley- we never said we plan on scouting along your coast, as you did here
*Shiber> BigFree, we were looking for an island between GS's continent and Bob.
*Shiber> There's a bunch of sea tiles that spread into the ocean
*Togas> do you guys have any interst in being friendly with us, or is this just a means to tell us to politely to leave you alone?
*Shiber> It looked like an island at first, but it turned out to be just shallows in the middle of the ocean
*BigFree> zeit, you already have the map of Bob, hence no need to scout.
*zeit> exactly
*BigFree> we do not have your map, hence we scout
*opd> Togas I'm ready to talk trades
*Shiber> Togas: no, of course not, we're very interested in trading luxes.
*zeit> but even if we had, I don't think we would have considered such action to be okay with you
*BigFree> it's well within the acceptable parameter's of the game for two Civ's not at war.
*Togas> We're not doing anything criminal or unusual.
*Togas> we're just sending *1* galley to do standard coastal mapping
*Togas> we don't know where your cities are, and from our PoV we need to open trade routes
*Shiber> One galley, which we'd have to constantly escort with several land units to prevent another GoW scenario
*Shiber> Just to be on the safe side, of course
*Togas> can you guys just relax a bit??
*zeit> our past trials have made us tense
*Shiber> I'll be back in a bit
*Togas> no one team is this hard to deal with, not even GoW.
*zeit> in terms of scouting and bringing galleys closer to our cities, yes
*zeit> wtr to trade
*zeit> I don't think we're hard on you
*Togas> YOU don't think?
*Togas> great...
*opd> well I don't know about this galley stuff
*Togas> Would I be complaining otherwise?
*opd> but I'd like to trade
*zeit> so do I. Perhaps something about one galley scouting can be arranged, but we'll have to see the team's opnion on this
*Shiber> Yes, I agree with Zeit. We've also worked out a similar deal with GoW (which ended prematurely, I'm afraid), but I'm sure that we can work something out.
*BigFree> I hope so, RP was really looking forward to working with GS
*zeit> Please, just understand that our security and map information is very valuable to us. We won't hold to it in any circumstance, but we rather it stays exclusively ours
*BigFree> But I'm afraid hat we will continueour scouting
*zeit> I'm sorry if this collides with the norms you are used to with other teams
*BigFree> me too
*BigFree>
*BigFree> really
*BigFree> but...
*BigFree> we will scout
*Togas> we're not going to send any other ships, this will be the only one you see
*BigFree> we will not make any thretening moves
*Togas> no excuses or nonsense, no disembarcing, no lingering
*BigFree> we will not land any units
*Shiber> This is not an official request, but for the time being (that is, while we're conducting some heavy naval activity) I'm sure that my team would appreciate if your galley would just move out of the way for a few turns (perhaps you can begin exploring the eastern coast of the continent?)
*BigFree> we will avoid all your border's where possible
*Togas> We are going south of the battle zone next turn
*zeit> I thank you for your insurences.
*BigFree> you are welcome
*opd> anyway
*Togas> We know it'll be tense for a few turns, but we hope that after those turns are past and you see that we're not there to cause any trouble, you'll trust us a bit more
*Shiber> Frankly, perhaps you're not aware of how south the naval battle zone stretches
*Togas> and if we know that if we do anything funny, you'll land a bunch of units next to Barcelona and kick our asses
*zeit>
*Togas> we know you have the capability ... we just saw the fleet. Believe me, we're well aware and don't want to cause any troubles
*Shiber> I'm not familiar with our invasion plans, but looking at the map, I think that where you would move next turn would force our galleys to make long detours that might foil our plans
*zeit> There is still the problem of blocking sea lanes of reinforcements. So if you could hold your galley for at least a couple of turns. We would most appreciate it
*Togas> let us know, we will be happy to avoid tiles and choose alternate paths. That's more than acceptable.
*Shiber> That's the deal... there's no alternative path, not for a pre-astronomy, non-lighthouse (no offense) galley
*zeit> very well
*Shiber> There's exactly one coastal tile south of your current position that you can go to in one turn without risking your galley, and due to the geography of the continent, your presence in that tile will require our galleys to make a long detour around it
*Togas> I know our boats are somewhat inferior ... but please don't tell our Spanish sailors that. They're far too prideful
*zeit> it depends on where Vox moves theirs, is it not?
*Shiber> No, look at the map and read my PM
*Shiber> Currently, where is your galley parked?
*Shiber> If I may ask
*Togas> Let me consult the map...
*Togas> we are west of Inchon
*Shiber> Oh.
*Shiber> See, that's not a very good start.
*Shiber> I'm not familiar with our plans but you might have just foiled them.
*Shiber> You could have at least asked.
*Shiber> How do you suppose my teammates would view this?
*opd> I don't even understand it
*Togas> no idea
*Togas> we have ND and GoW ships in our space from time to time.
*Shiber> Well, are you at war with anyone?
*Togas> We don't think much of it, if they leave next turn
*Togas> we're not at war with you, we're trying to work out trades. War would be a
stupid idea.
*zeit> This will possibly hurt our efforts at ferrying troops into Vox heartland next turn
*zeit> the current position of your galley.
*Shiber> Surely you won't mind much if the presence of another ship means that you have to delay your exploration mission by one turn, but if it delays an invasion plan by one turn... it could very well mean the failure of that plan.
*Togas> it won't, you can move right around our ship
*zeit> but we're pressed in time
*Togas> seriously, look at the map
*Shiber> Togas, no, I mean that you're not upset when foreign ships enter your waters because you're not at war with anyone.
*Togas> we're not in the way, we're not next to the coastal route, nor blocking the land
*Shiber> But we are. And our missions are very much time-critical.
*opd> BigFree you sitll there
*BigFree> yes
*opd> you wanna talk trade
*BigFree> sure, what you got, i got pokemon cards
*Shiber> Togas, you're not familiar with our plans for the next turn, I believe. I'm not familiar with the details, but I think that you've just screwed them up.
*Shiber> Anyway, what's done is done.
*opd> lol
*Shiber> We can talk about this later.
*zeit> What's done is done, that's true. Please consult you future moves with us, okay?
*Shiber> lol
*Shiber> !!
*zeit> LOL, i just got that now!
*Shiber> Oh, and be sure that the next time you say that diplomacy with us is difficult, we will remind you of this incident

[OPD]

*opd> anyway
Togas> Frankly, I don't see it, as there's alternate paths that = same travel time.
*opd> as I was saying
*opd> how long till you would be able to get ivory and silks hooked up
*Togas> Forget ivory
*Togas> that's ages
*opd> gems?
*BigFree> let me check the number's, the priority on those items fluctuates with talks
*Togas> we'll have spice or gems ready soonish. Less than 10, I'm pretty sure, but I need to look it up
*opd> hmmmnn
*opd> and do you have silks now?
*Togas> we do, but we need to hook up another one
*Togas> that's within the same window of time. Less than 10. Probably much less.
*opd> what would you say to the proposed trade of silks and gems for 2 of ours
*Togas> phone...
*Shiber> (that is, silks and gems for our furs and ivory)
*Shiber> *incense
*opd> The finest furs and incense
*opd> money can buy
*opd> can be yours
*BigFree> do you have furs an incense or furs and ivory?
*Shiber> if you call within the next 30 minutes
*opd> furs and incense
*Shiber> no, we have furs and incense to trade
*Shiber> ivory was a typo
*opd> we'd like some ivory
*opd> do you have a time on possible ivory hook up?
*zeit> Well, I gtg, have fun everyone! bye!
*BigFree> it would be a while for the Ivory
*opd> bb ziet
*BigFree> adios
* zeit has quit IRC (Quit: )
*Shiber> Oh, DAMN, look at the time!
*Shiber> I have to leave too
*Shiber>
*Shiber> But we've only got lux trade left on this chat's agenda, right? And I see that we are both interested in a 2-2 trade.
*Shiber> What remains is working out the details.
*opd> ok
*BigFree> yes
*BigFree> let us get backto you on a time shedule for the hook up of thos e luxes
*Shiber> Perhaps we can bundle the luxes deal with an agreement regarding RP's charting galley
*BigFree> perhaps
*Shiber> Yes, that would be great
*Shiber> I really must leave now
*Shiber> I'm terribly sorry
*opd> wait
*opd> so how are things on bob?
*Shiber> Good night all
*opd> bb shib
*BigFree> good
*BigFree> later
*Togas> back
* Shiber has quit IRC (Quit: Good night)
*opd> a bit like the cuban missile crisis there
*opd> anyway
*opd> so would you have silks and gem connected within ten turns
*Togas> Shiber seemed a bit too serious about the whole galley thing. You'll see that in 10-20 turns that the whole thing will be forgotten.
*Togas> certainly
*Togas> silks & gems for furs and incense ... I think that would be a trade that would benefit both of our people
*opd> I don't really understand it myself
*opd> but Shiber is alot more intouch with GS politics than I am
*BigFree> LOL
*opd> I think something may have happen with GoW saying they were scouting
*opd> then dropping units. but I wasn't around
*Togas> GoW is rather slippery that way
*opd> so we are go for the dual lux trade.
*Togas> I know you guys don't have much experience with us in the past, so I should probably be a bit more understanding
*Togas> We are on for a 2 for 2 lux swap.
*opd> ten turns sounds cool?
*Togas> We should finalize it, you notify us when the harbor is done, we'll notify you when we're linked
*Togas> it'll be within 10, hopefully sooner
*opd> Are you planning on trading with the others on bob
*BigFree> yes, ofcourd
*opd> Those wines look nice but GoW will prob be asking alot
*Togas> we'd like to trade with everyone if possible
*opd> same here
*opd> will lego be able to trade with harbours
*opd> before navigation
*Togas> let me check.
*Togas> hrm, my map is unclear. It's hard to say, I'll check the save next time to find out.
*opd> ok
*Togas> Right now we don't have a trade route with them yet, though.
*opd> will you be likely to trade your spices to lego
*Togas> how much do you know about Legoland?
*opd> we have a small bit of their map
*opd> can't see any luxs
*Togas> we have mostly old GoW exploration maps, and can't tell from my screenshot how close that GoW island is to Lego
*opd> theres alot of land there
*Togas> they have dyes, according to "rumor"
*opd> those rumour have to be true.
*opd> IMO
*opd> It's just that with regard to spices
*Togas> I agree
*Togas> As for spices, we have VERY few ... we basically get to pick 1 team to trade them to
*opd> It would be better for GS to deal with ND as we could get them on a lux for lux deal
*opd> everyone else has them so perhaps lego may be interested
*Togas> we MIGHT, ND might as well
*opd> that should be interesting.
*Togas> the thing is, giving too many luxes to Legoland is sealing our fate.
*opd> how about an embargo?
*Togas> they're suffering through republic with 1 luxury
*Togas>
*opd> yeah screw em and their smugness
*Togas> we'd consider an embargo, of course. But we haven't had reason to do so yet
*opd> yeah I know it could be something we could look at in the future though
*Togas> Despite Lego's isolationism, we've pulled off a few deals in the past.
*Togas> at least they're not agressive
*opd> I just wish it was them and GoW on an island
*Togas> that would be classic
*Togas> But GoW & ND balance each other out
*opd> how do you mean
*Togas> Both with the same overall threat, UUs at the same time. Same class.
*opd> hmm that could be bad for you
*Togas> if we were in the middle, yes
*opd> how do you view the chances of a war on bob
*opd> UU at the same time means they don't really have an advantage over each other.
-> [Togas] PING
-> [BigFree] PING
*opd> you still there
* opd slaps Togas around a bit with a large trout
-> [Togas] PING
-> [BigFree] PING
*BigFree> sorry buy ATM
*BigFree> *busy
*opd> ok will contact you when we have built a harbour
*BigFree> cool
*opd> ok nice to talk
*BigFree> you too

[nbarclay]

MSS and I just had a chat with BigFree about Beta's message and the prospects for peace. (I'm cutting off after it drifted away from game-related stuff.)

[03:31] % BigFree % hola
[03:31] % MSS % hey...
[03:32] % nbarclay % Hi. Just thought I'd pop in and see what's going on.
[03:32] % BigFree % two for the price of one
[03:32] % MSS % Have you been to the public forum yet?
[03:32] % MSS % thanks nathan..
[03:32] % BigFree % Are you asking me?
[03:32] % MSS % Beta started a thread that we find quite disturbing
[03:32] % MSS % yes...
[03:33] % BigFree % hmm, have not seen it, I've been playing ISDG scenarios
[03:33] % BigFree % I thought you two were going for peace?
[03:33] % MSS % Well In it are a few falshoods and
[03:33] % MSS % ...we were
[03:33] % nbarclay % We're willing to give them some time to get off the continent if they can find somewhere else to go.
[03:34] % nbarclay % Or at least we were until this latest stunt.
[03:34] % MSS % but they just started to spew all sorts of stuff...
[03:34] % BigFree % ah, that kind of peace
[03:34] *** Shiber (w00t@bzq-218-83-214.red.bezeqint.net) has joined #ptwtalks
[03:34] % MSS % they are trying to look like victims now...
[03:34] % Shiber % good morning
[03:34] % BigFree % so it's a "leave or else" kind of offer?
[03:34] % MSS % morning..
[03:34] % Shiber % No, actually they were already preparing to evacuate the continent by the time that our proposal has reached them
[03:34] % MSS % basically,
[03:35] % Shiber % (that's according to Jon)
[03:35] % MSS % true shiber..
[03:35] % nbarclay % It's a "If you want to evacuate, we'll give you some breathing space to do so," kind of offer.
[03:35] % MSS % yep..
[03:35] % BigFree % hmm
[03:35] % BigFree % intersting
[03:35] % nbarclay % As I said the other day, we don't regard continued coexistence with a team that has shown its willingness to deceive us and attack us as safe.
[03:35] % Shiber % We proposed to give them several turns (~12 was the initial offer), resources and help to allow them to evacuate as much of their population as possible.
[03:35] % BigFree % but now that deal is dead?
[03:36] % MSS % sure, I was hoping our amabssadors would get the chance to tell you by now...and solicit some advice/help
[03:36] % Shiber % BigFree, I suppose that a public apology from Beta might fix things. At least it would for me, I'm not sure what my teammates would think.
[03:36] % MSS % but it is now
[03:36] % MSS % or so it seams
[03:37] % BigFree % How soon do you guys plan to act on this lastest news?
[03:37] % nbarclay % That depends on what the map looks like when we get the save.
[03:37] % Shiber % Well, in-game, war will continue (in accordance with our diplomatic messages to Vox that were sent prior to Beta's latest announcement, explaining that until an agreement is signed, all in-game hostilities will continue)
[03:37] % nbarclay % But I doubt that it will have much effect on the next turn or two compared with if Vox simply ignored our latest proposal.
[03:38] % MSS % we do not want to give them a satisfaction of an answer, but we are at war, so thats that
[03:38] % BigFree % I though they had already offered; but now you guys say you didn't accept it and have continued the assault?
[03:39] % MSS % Nothing was agreed upon..
[03:39] % BigFree % I understand
[03:39] % nbarclay % Their offer was essentially just to let us keep the territory that was already behind our front lines.
[03:39] % MSS % it was all in negotiation
[03:39] % BigFree % But they did offer peace and you continued the assault. Is that correct?
[03:39] % MSS % yes,
[03:39] % BigFree % ah
[03:39] % Shiber % The offer that Beta detailed is similar to an offer that we've tried to communicate to Vox long before our maneuvers that cut their iron (only our proposal was much better).
[03:39] % BigFree % let me read this statement
[03:40] % MSS % please.
[03:40] % Shiber % Now they make it when they're nearly dead, and the cities that they "offer" us are now on our side of the front line and are nearly defenseless
[03:40] % BigFree % might make things clearer
[03:40] % MSS % We ask that you and your team does not fuel this mis-fire
[03:40] % nbarclay % I'm not positive whether we'd already made the offer (long ago) or just discussed it.
[03:40] % BigFree % ok,understood give me a few to read it
[03:40] % MSS % I thought we discussed it, but never communicated it
[03:41] % nbarclay % MSS, that matches my recollection too.
[03:43] % BigFree % I do not know the location of your or their troops, but the offer sounded resonable to me. But I was not the one that was attacked by Vox so maybe my judgement is from a completely different view point.
[03:44] % nbarclay % If we could trust Vox, I would view their peace offer as reasonable.
[03:44] % BigFree % what wasn't fair about it to you?
[03:44] % BigFree % I see
[03:44] % MSS % I guess the iss is not "reasonable" or not, it is public disclosure of private negotiations with a sprinkel of falshoods that disturbs us...
[03:44] % nbarclay % Did Beta mention that of the immortals we killed, three were down to one hit point each and the others to two hit points each?
[03:44] % BigFree % So now Vox is up against extinction?
[03:45] % nbarclay % (And would have been at one after another round of cat attacks?)
[03:45] % BigFree % I did not read that in the post
[03:45] % Shiber % And their "gesture of good will" was really moving immortals towards three of our workers
[03:45] % nbarclay % Those immortals were dead either way.
[03:45] % Shiber % (that is, moving already-dead-immortals)
[03:45] % nbarclay % And if it was a gesture of faith, it was an incompetent one.
[03:45] % MSS % They asked for safe passage, but we made it claer (twice) that hostilitis will continue untill we have an agreement...
[03:45] % nbarclay % Where those immortals moved to put them next to not one, not two, but three undefended GS workers!
[03:45] % BigFree % could they have moved them in a different direction?
[03:46] % MSS % natnah?
[03:46] % Shiber % Plus, Jon said that Vox has made several mistakes in-game, we suspect that what Beta tries to present as gestures (moving immortals off of mountains and immortals near Inchon moving south and then north again) were just mistakes
[03:46] % BigFree % LOL
[03:46] % nbarclay % We had the immortals pretty well boxed in. In two of five possible directions, we had pikes on mountains. One put them next to our workers, and one would have put them next to one of our cities.
[03:47] % BigFree % that's kind of nasty to say that though...be nice, don't make it personal, this is just a game.
[03:47] % nbarclay % (That's how we got them down to so few hit points.)
[03:48] % nbarclay % Three of five were mountains. (Typo)
[03:48] % BigFree % It's a little disturbing to think of Vox being extincted though...can't you guys work something out?
[03:49] % nbarclay % It's hard to see what could work with them on our continent.
[03:49] % BigFree % Is there not enough room for the both of you?
[03:49] % nbarclay % The added expense of maintaining the border guards we would need would be very considerable.
[03:50] % MSS % We tried... They are making it hard to welcom their presence in the game with stunts such as this...
[03:50] % BigFree % heck, we all have to put up withthat expense on Bob
[03:50] % BigFree % Look at por ND, they are Sandwiched
[03:50] % nbarclay % Not against civs that have already used an elaborate deception to set up an attack on you.
[03:50] % MSS % True, but there is a bit of land.... more expense, buut more revenue
[03:51] % nbarclay % More revenue from where?
[03:51] % MSS % Would you welcome Vox on Bob?
[03:51] % BigFree % uh, no
[03:51] % MSS % give them a place to live?
[03:51] % BigFree % 3's company
[03:51] % MSS % lol
[03:51] % MSS % hardly
[03:51] % BigFree % 4's a crowd, look what happened to Lux
[03:51] % nbarclay % Keep in mind that the territory RP looks like you're planning to claim is bigger than our entire continent.
[03:52] % MSS % We understand, but vox is no longer welcom, they are not good neighbors..
[03:52] % Shiber % Then perhaps they can find themselves some room in one of Lego's continents
[03:52] % BigFree % So, GS does not and will not ever trust Vox again?
[03:52] % Shiber % You can bet on that
[03:53] % nbarclay % We'll never trust Vox with anything we can't afford to lose.
[03:53] % MSS % true shiber... we were willing to set them up with techs, iron, time
[03:53] % nbarclay % In fairness, we hadn't presented the idea of helping with techs to Vox yet.
[03:53] % BigFree % I will have to take this news too our forums. RP thought there was going to be peace on Estonia...
[03:53] % MSS % but they stab us in the back by disclosing privatenegotiation and spreading half truths
[03:54] % nbarclay % I thought I'd made it fairly clear in our chat the other day that there wouldn't be.
[03:54] % MSS % True, but we were just beginning...
[03:54] % nbarclay % Where did you get the expectation that there would?
[03:54] % nbarclay % Vox?
[03:54] % BigFree % WEll we got messages saying that peace was on the way by Vox
[03:55] % Shiber % Then they lied to you too.
[03:55] % MSS % it was, untill now
[03:55] % Shiber % They couldn't have seriously expected peace if they knew that they were going to post such a message
[03:55] % MSS % we were working on it
[03:55] % BigFree % we saw stuff withour Galley and asked about it
[03:55] % nbarclay % I'm not sure whether Vox lied or whether they just let their hopes speak for them without waiting for a commitment from us.
[03:55] % BigFree % perhaps
[03:55] % MSS % Hope speak I think..
[03:55] % Shiber % Nathan is right, to say that Vox lied to you too would be premature
[03:56] % BigFree % maybe they thought the deal for peace would be accpeted
[03:56] % MSS % Still counting the chickens...
[03:57] % MSS % All we are asking right now is that you and your team ..don't buy into it
[03:58] % nbarclay % We'd expressed some interest in talking about peace, but the initial messages went out before we polled GS to see what the team's sentiment was.
[03:58] % nbarclay % A pretty overwhelming majority doesn't trust Vox to regard peaceful coexistence on the same continent as practical.
[03:58] % nbarclay % doesn't trust Vox enough...
[03:59] % BigFree % Personally, and not form the standpoint of my Civ, I think GS had a right to conqueror some of Vox's land, but not to the point of extinction. I urge GS not to do this to Vox. It just would feel right from my POV. My teammates may feel differntly. Nevertheless, it is a shockto hear this.
[03:59] % MSS % I assume you ment would'nt
[03:59] % BigFree % *wouldn't
[04:00] % MSS % gotcha
[04:00] % BigFree % I cant type well :P
[04:00] % MSS % look at my crap
[04:00] % BigFree % I hen peck
[04:00] % MSS % ditto
[04:00] % MSS % Well we havent conqered any land yet
[04:01] % MSS % zip zero nada
[04:01] % MSS % we are getting ready.
[04:01] % BigFree % I would consider the two towns you settled as land conqured...
[04:01] % MSS % hmmm
[04:01] % Shiber % Yes, that makes sense
[04:01] % BigFree % well, the land was behind their already settle towns
[04:02] % MSS % true, I see that perspecive...
[04:02] % BigFree % What if, and a BIG IF, RP stepped in as Mediators?
[04:02] % MSS % Curious
[04:03] % BigFree % Where we forced a peace upon Vox
[04:03] % BigFree % so thye could not attack you
[04:03] % nbarclay % What kind of proposal could you mediate that would solve anything, when we have little reason to view a treaty from Vox as worth the paper it's written on?
[04:03] % BigFree % well, we could physically intervene
[04:04] % MSS % War?
[04:04] % BigFree % no
[04:04] % BigFree % just put ourselves in between you two
[04:04] % MSS % wierd
[04:04] % BigFree % that way, they would have to declar war on us to get to you
[04:04] % BigFree % sort of like a UN peace keeping force
[04:05] % nbarclay % If RP held Elipolis and kept a significant garrison there, that might have some, uh, interesting effects, I'll admit.
[04:05] % BigFree % This is all off the top of my head...
[04:06] % BigFree % Togas and the rest of the team would have be be tolsd of this and it would be debated and such
[04:06] % Shiber % I have to leave now.
[04:06] % Shiber % RL, sorry.
[04:06] % BigFree % take care
[04:06] % MSS % that is a cloak of hypocracy though... That is like a fourth civ on bob....
[04:06] % Shiber % Thanks, cya
[04:06] *** Quits : Shiber (w00t@bzq-218-83-214.red.bezeqint.net) - (Quit: Shiber has no reason)
[04:06] % BigFree % LOL
[04:06] % BigFree % I lauhg at the quit messages
[04:06] % MSS % I C
[04:06] % BigFree % someone had ****you and they never knew it
[04:06] % MSS % no insinuation, just looking critivcally
[04:07] % nbarclay % On the other hand, even if we could agree to something like that, if we did it in the immediate aftermath of Beta's post, it would look a lot like we were rewarding Beta for diplomatic tactics we regard as much less than honest.
[04:07] % MSS % tru nathan
[04:07] % BigFree % I would propose having a city, just a small number of troops
[04:07] % BigFree % *wouldn't
[04:07] % MSS % Sure, that makes more sense
[04:07] % MSS % hehe
[04:08] % BigFree % my pink went to sleep and forgot to type the n't
[04:08] % nbarclay %
[04:08] % MSS % I do not know.... Really all we ask is that you and your team doesn't fuel the fire in the thread.
[04:09] % MSS % let the pooh dry up
[04:09] % BigFree % I understand
[04:09] % BigFree % but i cannot speak for the whole team
[04:09] % MSS % I understand
[04:09] % nbarclay % Question: if a team did to you what Vox did to us, would you consider it inappropriate to completely conquer them, or even to take more than 1/6 of their established cities as of the time of the attack?
[04:09] % BigFree % Should I even bother to mention the "peace keeping" idea to my team?
[04:09] % nbarclay % Actually, probably 1/7.
[04:10] % MSS % Mediate maybe, but we want them off the continent
[04:10] % MSS % ExVox
[04:10] % MSS % Exodus
[04:11] % BigFree % I don't know about what percentages would seem fair nathan, this game is realtively new to me as far as dealing with humans versus the AI.
[04:11] % MSS % To us all
[04:12] % nbarclay % Vox had seven cities when they attacked us, one of which is presumably almost totally corrupt. What they would be giving up under Beta's proposal would be the one almost totally corrupt city and a fair amount of territory they could have expanded into.
[04:12] % BigFree % I mean, I know how I wouild treat the AI in such a situation, because I know the consequences of the game mechanics. But if GS were to assume that the rest of the teams would behave or rect in a similar manner, then you might be surprised as to what reations you will get. There's too many human emeotions playing into this right now. It is very volitile for both Vox and GS.
[04:14] % nbarclay % How many tears did RP shed over Lux's removal from Bob?
[04:14] % BigFree % I suspect that Vox will garner some sympathy.
[04:14] % BigFree % Trip is a different story altogether
[04:14] % BigFree % plus he was taken out by a non-native Team
[04:16] % nbarclay % And if a civ on another continent wants to give Vox a new home, we can live with that.
[04:16] % BigFree % I wasn't even involved in the begining, but I remeber all the teams saying they were out to get Lux.
[04:16] % BigFree % I can almost guarantee you that will not be on Bob
[04:16] % MSS % Thats just it... We get the message"let vox live, but not over here..."
[04:17] % MSS % Wel we want vox to live, but not over here
[04:17] % BigFree % reminds me of the acronym NIMBY
[04:17] % MSS % ??
[04:17] % BigFree % Not In My Back Yard
[04:17] % MSS % yep
[04:18] % BigFree % when ever the governmnet has a new industrila project, the whole town wnat it to be built, but not anywhere near them though.
[04:18] % MSS % In short If you want vox to live, you need to help find them a home, because it will not be on outr contenten
[04:18] % BigFree % I will pass that along
[04:19] % MSS % we were will give them time (I hope) but that window is closing, faster now because of beta
[04:20] % BigFree % will you continue to attack this turn?
[04:20] % MSS % I would think so, nathan?
[04:20] % BigFree % I think that would be bad form if you are trying to let them leave...
[04:20] % MSS % hmm
[04:21] % nbarclay % Vox has our proposal for a cease-fire to give them a chance for orderly evacuation.
[04:21] % BigFree % what do thye have to do to activate that?
[04:21] % nbarclay % And will have had it for about a day and a half by the time we play our turn.
[04:22] % nbarclay % If they give us some kind of positive response, I agree that it would be bad form to attack.
[04:22] % MSS % is it the summary you sent nathan?
[04:22] % nbarclay % Yes.
[04:22] % MSS % I wonder if we need to reword it to give them a clearer trigger ?
[04:23] % MSS % It will be a hard sell to teh team after the PR smear
[04:23] % BigFree % nathan, can you post in that thread that you intend to give peace a chance for at least 10 turns until Vox can leave the Continent?
[04:23] % nbarclay % Agreed. Beta did a lot of damage to our willingness to let Vox evacuate unmolested.
[04:24] % MSS % ??
[04:25] % nbarclay % Our giving Vox that time would have to be contingent on Vox's disbanding the forces they won't be taking with them. (That would solve our security problems so we could get back to buildng, and Vox could use the shields to build galleys and settlers.)
[04:25] % nbarclay % That was part of what I sent Vox.
[04:25] % BigFree % ah
[04:25] % nbarclay % (Or something to that effect.)
[04:26] % BigFree % that would mean that they would have to move all troops into cities, are they in cities now or mostly outside?
[04:26] % nbarclay % If Vox maintains its current force levels and we can't be sure they aren't building more, we can't safely stop our own troop production.
[04:26] % nbarclay % Mostly outside cities right now, I think.
[04:26] % MSS % That is the trigger.
[04:26] % BigFree % so they would need a few turns to get them all inside
[04:26] % BigFree % and disbanded
[04:27] % MSS % Disbad forces, allow a couple of war chariots to sit their territory and observe...
[04:27] % BigFree % true
[04:27] % nbarclay % They could start disbanding immediately. That would be enough to put things on the right path.
[04:27] % BigFree % that would be a part of the program if I were running things
[04:28] % BigFree % ok, who plays first from here? You or Vox?
[04:28] % MSS % True... the gesture of good faith should have been to disband teh worthess immortals (1 hp)
[04:28] % nbarclay % Vox just sent their turn a while ago, so we're up next.
[04:28] % BigFree % hmm

[nbarclay]

Continued from previous post:

[04:28] % BigFree % so you would have to begin the "escort" of their troops then this turn
[04:29] % BigFree % post a meesage, in public, that this is what you want them to do
[04:29] % nbarclay % It's not a matter of escorting troops. It's just a matter of our not attacking them and their not attacking us while they head to suitable sites to disband.
[04:29] % BigFree % I agree
[04:29] % MSS % We wold likely have to eat a 24 hr penelty to make it work, I think. No biggie...
[04:30] % BigFree % what penatly?
[04:30] % MSS % oh the silly counter thing...
[04:30] % BigFree % ah
[04:30] % BigFree % :P
[04:30] % MSS % no biggie
[04:30] % BigFree % to the counter
[04:30] % MSS % heh
[04:30] % BigFree % **** ahppens
[04:30] % nbarclay % Lego still has the save, so there should be time if we take the full allowed time for our turn.
[04:31] % nbarclay % At least if we move quickly.
[04:31] % BigFree % for what nathan, i'm not sure I follow?
[04:31] % MSS % true... Should we take this to the team?
[04:31] % nbarclay % Time for Vox to decide that they'd rather accept our evacuation idea than have the fighting continue, if that's what they want.
[04:31] % MSS % or go ahead and "make it so"
[04:31] % BigFree % I see, you need time to take it to your people
[04:32] % MSS % Put it this way, It is the smaering that we can eliminate if we eliminate vox...
[04:33] % MSS % a little heavy handed granted
[04:33] % MSS % but it dosent make us feel ssafe..
[04:33] % MSS % to have that eliment in teh game
[04:33] % MSS % hehe I type worse than you BF
[04:33] % BigFree % I just hope this can be worked out, I think Vox will go for it.
[04:34] % BigFree % I don't think so MSS! :P
[04:34] % MSS % I rather it did as well
[04:34] % BigFree % I need one of those voice driven word processors
[04:35] % MSS % There is still the issue of finding VOX a home, But we need the help of ALL the other civs
[04:35] % MSS % voice recog.. drool
[04:35] % BigFree % true, mabye lego can help ther, but Bob is not an optiopn,you saw what happened last time
[04:36] % nbarclay % Yes, we did.
[04:36] % BigFree % Lego is huge
[04:36] % MSS % Sure, but the way I see it if the world want sVox to live, the world can make room. We are doing our part by giving the the chance...
[04:36] % BigFree % I suspect it is bigger than Bob
[04:36] % MSS % we do too
[04:37] % nbarclay % According to Aeson's figures, there's no way Lego's continent is bigger than Bob.
[04:37] % BigFree % MSS, will you join the PTWDG II?
[04:37] % nbarclay % But bigger than our continent, very possibly.
[04:38] % nbarclay % (Of course Aeson is just interpolating based on the number of land tiles that "ought" to be on this map.)
[04:38] % BigFree % There could be nuances to Lego land that does show in Aeson's figure, like land bridges and such.

[OPD]

quick chat with BF he was busy so just passed on the official stuff from the diplo thread

*opd> lo BF you busy
*Bigfree> hey
*Bigfree> yes I am
*opd> thought so
*Bigfree> but what's up
*opd> not much just a few things from GS
*opd> nothing that can't wait
*Bigfree> go ahead
*opd> regarding your galley
*opd> GS has no problem whatsoever with you scouting our coastline
*opd> We never did have an issue with it and it was always the party line that it was ok aslong as you notify us when ending a turn inside cultural borders
*Bigfree> cool
*Bigfree> sure
*opd> also I'd like to apologise for the abbrasiveness of the
last chat.
*opd> And were likely to be selling our WM soon.
*Bigfree> you guys were under stress, it's understandable.
*Bigfree> nice.
*opd> thats about it.
*opd> take care

[OPD]

Spoke to BF a few mins ago about map trade. Shiber's message communicated.

opd> lo BF
BigFree> hey
BigFree> I was awya, as you can see
opd> hows it going
BigFree> not to bad
opd> How is the RP galley? What
did you guys christen it again?
BigFree> Well, I assume it is still afloat and sailing merrily around the seas.
BigFree> I forget its name, maybe the Santa Maria
opd> GS could provide a guide for your galley if you like the GS can be trecherous at times
BigFree> not sure I follow you there
opd> *GS waters
opd> I dunno just trying a little role playing
BigFree> LOL
BigFree> ok, I thought you were offering a guide to protect us from GS herself!
opd> lol
BigFree> kinda like the mob does to its patron's "protection money"
BigFree> we just need to end turns on the coast is all, we
don't have that wonderful light house thingy you have.
opd> Did you recieve a message from Shiber regarding map purchase
opd> Ah yes the GL is a fine symbol of GS triumph over the seas.
BigFree> no
BigFree> at least I dont have word of it, who did he send it to?
BigFree> its a weekend, not many peeps around
opd> hmm I dunno maybe I was meant to send it
opd> Dear whoever-their-ambassador-is,
opd> In the past, your team has shown interest in acquiring our world map.
opd> It is now available for purchase. Would you be interested? If so, please propose your
price for the map and we will get back to you shortly.
opd> Best regards,
opd> Whoever-sends-this
opd> wow there it is
opd> can PM if you like
BigFree> nah, thats fine
BigFree> I will post it in our forums
opd> cheers
BigFree>
BigFree> does cheers mean good
bye
opd> ? no
BigFree> ah
opd> is this a UK - US thing
BigFree> it means "right on" or "cool"
BigFree> ?
opd> more sort of thanks but more breezy
BigFree> oh, ok
BigFree> cheers
opd> np
opd> lol
opd> so how are things on bob?
opd> Anything that may effect GS in anyway?
BigFree> good, nice and peaceful.
BigFree> nto really besides our attempting to hook up trade items.
BigFree> that should be good for both of us.
opd> good for everyone
BigFree>
opd> ok then
opd> bed time
BigFree> god night
opd> will try to hang around in this room whenever I can. Should you need urgent contact
BigFree> cool
opd> to agree a deal with map
opd> take care
BigFree> cheers

Edit - removed all < to show names

[zeit]

To Togas, re: WM trade:

Honorable Togas,

In the past, your team has shown interest in acquiring our world map.
It is now available for purchase. Would you be interested? If so, please propose your price for the map and we will get back to you shortly.
Please send your reply to Shiber and ManicStarSeed. Thank you.

Best regards,
Zeit,
Gathering Storm.

[zeit]

Reply:

Zeit,

I have received your message and posted it for my team's consideration.

I will instruct BigFree to contact Shiber and MSS regarding this proposal.

--Togas

[OPD]

From Bigfree about 10 hours ago.

WM offer to RP
I've thought about you offer to sell us your WM. What if we offer to completely withdraw our ships from scouting around Estonia? I mean, we would be able to get the information through mostly scouting around ourselves since it appears that Estonia is not all that wide. And it also clears up your sea lanes and causes our ships to gather less fish from your waters, which allows more for GS to be able to feed your growing chickens.

On a seperate note; we are contiuing our connection of luxeries. We hope to be able to trade soon the the people of gathering Storm.

BigFree

[OPD]

spoke to BF a few mins ago.

Had to edit out some stuff concerning ISDG and other stuff.

* Now talking in #PTWTalks
* Topic is 'Welcome GS, Please notify us if anyone shows up'
* Set by E_T on Thu Jun 12 11:44:27
* BigFree|Asleep is now known as BigFree
*BigFree> hey
*opd> hey hey
*opd> have posted
*opd> hows it going then BF?
*BigFree> not bad
* opdafk is now known as opd
*opd> lo
*BigFree> yo
*opd> lol my brother is on TV
*BigFree> hehe, not on America's
most wanted is he?
*opd> lol no
*opd> BF, concerning RP
*BigFree> yes?
*opd> would it be possible for GS to have RP's map?
*BigFree> a map ecahnge youmean?
*BigFree> *exchange
*opd> well kinda
*BigFree> spell it out for me
*opd> could you gives GS a few turns before you trading our map on?
*BigFree> i think so
*opd> does RP map contain much new information?
*BigFree> I guess that would depend on what GS knows already
*opd> we shall see I guess.
*BigFree> we get some thing new every turn to add to it.
*opd> So how long till your harbour is built
*BigFree> um, we have had it built for quite a while
*opd> hmmmn wrong game perhaps
*BigFree> LOL
*opd> great I check on GS harbour.
*BigFree> yes, I think hat was the hold up
*BigFree> and our hooking up the luxeries
*opd> hmmmn interesting
*opd> I think GS will be getting a harbour in the peace deal with Vox
*opd> then we should have it road up in a few turns
*BigFree> cool
*opd> how long till...
*BigFree> you guys need a FP up
tyhere now and you are set.
*opd> yeah just send us 40 reg warriors so we can get a leader
*BigFree> LOL
*opd> we'll give you 3 g and a TM
*opd> how ling till you have the 2 lux conected
*BigFree> hehe
*BigFree> very soon
*opd> are RP planning any wars soon BTW
*opd> I promise I won't tell anyone
*BigFree> nope, we are very happy being peaceful
*opd> ok but if you do don't loose any lux cities
*BigFree> haha
*opd> or take any other civs luxs cities
*opd> you know the demographics.
*BigFree> of course
*opd> how is life expectancy worked out?
*BigFree> one moment
*opd> I figured out productivity
*opd> :b
*opd> BFM is my new hero
*BigFree>
*opd> I should so definatly win the limerick competition
* opd is now known as opdaway
*BigFree> what was yours
*opdaway> I've posted a couple mainly being slightly instulting to vox
*BigFree>
*BigFree> you devil
*opdaway> gg
*opdaway> take care
*BigFree> adios

[OPD]

Spoke to BF for a while
In summary
They see the lux trade as a NAP sort of thing non cancelable without long period of notice. They are looking for 10 turns notice. A lot of time was spent trying to convince him it was a good idea to have it cancellable but he isn’t moving. Agreed that we need to talk about it more. Deal goes through on a temporary basis cancelable at 1 turns notice. While more discussions take place… MSS? May have gone a bit too far with one of my theoretical examples of why we should be able to cancel it.
Agreed to trade WM’s and their galley should leave.


* Now talking in #PTWTalks
* Topic is 'Welcome GS, Please notify us if anyone shows up'
* Set by E_T on Thu Jun 12 11:44:27
* ChanServ sets mode: -r
* opd is now known as opdaway
* BigFree|Away has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
* BigFree has joined #PTWTalks
*opdaway> lo BF
*BigFree> hey
* opdaway is now known as opd
*opd> how it going
*BigFree> good
*opd> how are RP?
*BigFree> very good
*opd> meant to contact you sooner regarding lux trade
*opd> the game moves alot faster than I thought
*BigFree> no problem, we traded our luxes to you
*opd> and we agree this turn
*opd> :b
*BigFree> we needed anohter turn, but we just gae you our lux instaed o an extra one; bu no problems
*opd> ?
*opd> thats very gracious of you
*opd> we could have worked something out instead
*opd> anyway regarding the lux trade
*BigFree> we will have another
*opd> we'd like to keep the lux trade non political
*BigFree> how is that?
*opd> I mean not politiacally binding
*opd> or cancellable with a few turns notice
*BigFree> hmm? why would you want to cancel
*opd> we wouldn't
*opd> I don't think
*BigFree> we want a minmum guarantee
on this
*opd> but we'd like to have both parties reserve the right to cancel w/o breaking a deal
*opd> how long a guarentee
*BigFree> not good

[OPD]

*opd> hmmmn
*opd> is this bad
*BigFree> yes, if you want to be able to back out on a whim
*opd> we wouldn't back out on a whim
*BigFree> We'd like a ten turn notice
*opd> it stems from us not wanting to sign any NAP with anyone on bob
*opd> we don't want to be seen as picking favourites
*opd> or affecting the balance of power
*BigFree> well, simce you are getting our luuries, we should be a little favored
*opd> and a lux trade can be seen as a NAP
*BigFree> trade=favor
*BigFree> yes, a trade should be considered a NAP in a way
*opd> which is the last thing we want
*opd> we maybe not the last
*opd> theoretical example
*opd> say we agree a 20 min on lux trade
*BigFree> why would you be afraid of being non-agressive towards RP?
*opd> we wouldn't be
*opd> but others might construe it a different way
*BigFree> too bad for them
*opd> if we were to sign a NAP with GoW and ND what would that tell RP?
*BigFree> that you were a peace ful Civ
*opd> lol
*BigFree>
*opd> we are
*BigFree> what's wrong with giving us a 10 turn notice before you pull the plug on any lux deal?
*opd> say we were to agree to that
*BigFree> ok
*opd> then we were to drop 4 stlrs and 4 pikes in south bob the next turn
*opd> wouldn't you like the right to declare war?
*BigFree> well, that would be a seperate issue
*opd> yes but how do you define what issues are separate
*BigFree> if we needed to declare war, we would
*opd> and break the deal?
*BigFree> if we HAD to declare war, yes
*BigFree> but GS would do the same, no?
*BigFree> if we did that to Estonia?
*opd> GS wouldn't like a situation like that to arrive
*BigFree> then don't land on Bob.
*opd> thats why we'd like any lux trade to be non political
*BigFree> loo, you stay on Estonia,
we stay on Bob, no problems at all, right?
*opd> GS have too much honour
*BigFree> I am glad GS has honour
*BigFree> RP has some too!
*BigFree>
*opd> yes but we don't want it to be a weakness
*BigFree> So, you want to be able to declae war at any time is what you mean?
*opd> no
*opd> well yes
*BigFree> sounds like it to me
*opd> like things are now
*opd> not that we plan on that
*BigFree> I know what you are getting at
*opd> but we'd like to remain a threat millitarily
*BigFree> Rp would like a 10 turn notice before the trade is pulled
*BigFree> you could do your threats after that time
*BigFree> I think you will find the other Civ's on Bobv wanting a simular deal
*opd> so you're saying that in addition to the lux trade you'd like a NAP with 10 turns notice
*BigFree> we all want peaceful existences
*opd> we have spoken to others on bob
*BigFree> good
*BigFree> GS can declare war on anyone they want so long as it's
*opd> Theoretiacally how would RP feel if ND and GoW were to declare war on them
*opd> would you ask us to join in on our side our side
*opd> *your
*BigFree> restate please
*opd> we don't want to NAP with anyone on bob
*BigFree> that's a problem
*BigFree> if you want our luxes
*BigFree> we want security
*BigFree> GS claims to be a peacful Civ, but wants to retain the right to declare war on RP at a momonents notice. RP has done nothing to cause GS to feel this way towards us, have we?
*opd> your personalizing it a bit
*opd> we want the right to declare war on anyone
*BigFree> but, RP is included in "anyone"
*BigFree>
*opd> getting a bit miscontrued here
*BigFree> decalre on all you wnat, not RP though.
*opd> we don't plan on war for a long time
*BigFree> good, then just give us ten turns notice than come in storming!
*opd> hmmmn
*opd> how would you feel if we had a 10 turn notice agreed
*BigFree> we would feel a lot better
*opd> then we moved a few galleys next to one of your cities
*BigFree> if only two, we wouldn't feel that threatened
*opd> say we moved 2 close to one of your most distant cities
*opd> say we put 10 galleys in your waters
*opd> not that we'd even consider such a thing
*opd> but how would you react
*BigFree> 10 Galley's! We would react rather hostile towards your hostile act I would presume.
*opd> say we were to wait untill you are at war with someone else then move 2 galleys next to a city undefended
*opd> you'd like the right to blow us out of the water right?
*BigFree> we might
*opd> well so would we
*BigFree> good
*BigFree> I'd expect it
*opd> and so you see why we don't want a NAP
*BigFree> nope
*opd> arrrgggh
*BigFree>
*BigFree> look
*BigFree> if GS wants to be able to decalre war whenever, RP has a right to feel threatenend by that very statement
*opd> yes
*BigFree> if GS wants peace, then it should give a ten turn notice then launch its nukes at us.
*BigFree> that is honorable
*opd> well...
*opd> I feel were not going to progress very much with this
*BigFree>
*opd> I think MSS should probably take over
*BigFree> well, you were given a directive by your team
*BigFree> and it does not inclusde giving a 10 turn notice
*opd> I guess the trade is off
*opd> for the moment anyway
*opd> this benefits neither of us
*BigFree> well, it on for right now, we can give it a few turns to work itself out
*BigFree> no need to cancel the whole thing
*opd> how about if we agree a 3 turn period
*BigFree> we need to discuss
*opd> then negotiate again
*BigFree> I would have to go back to the team
*BigFree> they would like a 20 turn agreemnet
*BigFree> but I think 10 is fair
*opd> well we'll see
*opd> would you like the trade to be cancelled in game?
*BigFree> no, of course not
*opd> or shall we let it roll while
things are discussed
*BigFree> we value friendship with GS
*BigFree> lets continue discussing at another time
*BigFree> but let the deal go for now, as is.
*opd> as it is cancellable at any time during the negotiation process
*BigFree> right
*opd> perhaps a turns grace
*BigFree> sure
*opd> ok
*opd> perhaps we can a agree a map trade?
*BigFree> I think so
*opd> WM for WM
*BigFree> sure
*opd> great
*BigFree>
*opd> thats something at least
*BigFree> see, we can do this!
*opd> will this mean your galley leaving our territory?
*BigFree> more than likely yes
*BigFree> but I'd have to discuss it with team
*opd> hmmmn
*BigFree> we are looking for the land of the lost
*BigFree> or maybe atlatis
*opd> I see
*BigFree> but I could get them to chage their minds perhaps
*opd> sorry to disapoint you but you'll be able to see when you get the maps that there is no atlantis
*BigFree>
*opd> I'd like the whole galley thing to be behind us
*BigFree> we were thinking about suiciding a galley accross to the east of you
*BigFree> but I think I can get it recalled
*BigFree> as a gesture of goodwill
*opd> to lego?
*BigFree> yes
*opd> that would be marvellous
*BigFree> what would be
*BigFree> to suicide it or to recall it?
*opd> recalling the galley
*BigFree> ok
*BigFree> I will push for a recall
*opd> GS would appreciate your gesture of goodwill
*BigFree> OK, I have some pull over here
*BigFree> I can get it done
*opd> cheers
*opd> I'll cancel the nuclear strike this end
*BigFree> cheers
*BigFree> LOL
*BigFree> thanks
*BigFree>
*opd> anyway guess I'll have to be getting back
*BigFree> ok then
*opd> nice to talk to you
*BigFree> nice chatting
*opd> see ya
*BigFree> adios
* opd is now known as opdaway