DIPLO: RollPlay Team contact LOG

[Cort Haus]

from Arnelos

I've asked for thought on my immediate thought on this in our forum and mentioned that we should at least bring up the idea with you guys...

What if we told GoW that we (GS/RP) have conducted some investigation of Legoland and we're willing to sell the information to them. Tell them that at least some of the information (which we can attach) could be of some interest to them. Between GS and RP we can determine ahead of time which one of us might get a better price out of GoW and try to sell it to them. Whoever sells it, the money can go toward improved GS research either way, I'd think (which ends up beneffiting the entire alliance), assuming the price is even money (other favors could be negotiated, of course).

Do you think they'd even be willing to buy it? I think they would... and besides, anything that gets GoW or ND thinking about and looking at how strong Legoland has become is good in my book. The fact that they're getting four luxes from ND is even more interesting. Perhaps GoW already knows this, but what if they don't?

Worth a shot, at least, I'd think.

What do you think?

- Arnelos

[Cort Haus]

to Arnelos

Yes, we too have considered the benefits of leaking this info to GoW / ND, as a demonstration of Lego's strength.

In fact we already did leak it to GoW for free in fact, seeing as they had prior insisted on giving us their World Map (which you should get this turn), but more importantly they also just paid up 300g in compensation for goofing a tech deal, which still went through OK in the end.

So GoW have seen it, but not ND yet. It might be good for RP to approach ND, and to see what they say. We didn't think of charging GoW for it, as they're paying us a lot of gold for this tech deal. It might be interesting to see if ND will pay. It's got to be worth a few gold to them, (it was ~80g for the embassy). If they don't want to pay anything, maybe they've already been shown it by GoW which would be a good thing, if it gets them thinking about Lego's power.

Since the leak, 'Unofficial Sources' in GoW have spoken of a window of opportunity for a Grand Alliance to hit Lego between Mil Trad (along in a few turns) and Nationalism/Steam. This makes a lot of sense. Just 'chatter', rather than official team positions, but eyebrow-raising, perhaps


- Cort.


PS: Tech Update.

GS Research is rocketing along, with the help of RP input. Magnetism in 2 turns, trade for Metallurgy, then ToG in 5 turns and it's the new era. Chemistry and Metallurgy have 20 turn NDA's (as do Physics and Magnetism going to GoW) but when they expire we can bring you into the Industrial Era.

[Cort Haus]

Hi Arnelos, Hi Togas.

Things are getting interesting.

1. GS, GoW and ND have agreed to lock Lego out of tech deals going into the Industrial Era.

2. Also, GoW-ND have proposed a 3-way hit on Lego, striking soon between Mil Trad and Rifles/Rails. The tech embargo will help widen that window.

GS approves the hit on Lego, intended to damage rather than destroy them, but is seeking to minimise if not avoid our own military involvement. GoW/ND want our committment to (a) cover their asses and (b) maximise chances of success on Lego.

GS feel that GoW/ND are strong enough to do the job on their own, but might be able to raise a token force to hit Lego from the west after ND/GoW get established, and following a period of 'neutrality'. We have disbanded most of our navy, and will be maintaining the sea-wall intact, so we have a limited capacity at our disposal and it will take time to raise an Expeditionary Force - should it come to that. We would be supplied with saltpeter from Bob.

GS was not planning on war, and is not geared up for it. We are obviously taking time to consider all this - including how it all might shake out. We have not reached a final position on how we will respond to the proposal, following the chat with GoW and ND yesterday. Part of the deal would be a GS undertaking not to try anything on Bob during the attack on Lego.

Meanwhile, there are a few points RP might want to consider:

1. Units.

What we could send, if we're in on it, would be what's available, which in turn depends on your plans and estimates for your sea wall. We had previously suggested you can either use GS units on your wall if you want, or build your own. If you could let us know what the projected unit situation would be over the next 10 turns or so, that would help us asses the options.

2. Vox

The question of Vox's free tech has arisen. We expect it to go to Lego, but there is always doubt about their relationship with the Green Blob. GoW, who are supplying Vox with free wine, will be trying to find out about this. We know that RP are skilled in the subtle arts of deduction and information gathering. Any light that you might be able to shed on this subject could be very valuable.
Personally, I would be dubious about bringing Vox up-to date for one tech, risking that two or three others could fall into Lego's hands.

3. Opportunity for RP?

The timing of the conflict may be a little too soon for your Conquistador, but when I asked MZ whether he'd considered the impact of a stack of Conq's tearing into Lego's dark heart, he was very interested. He's had some fun with that unit lately, and sees its potential.

We hope you find this of interest.

Regards,

Cort

[Cort Haus]

from Togas

Cort,

This attack may be too soon for us to seriously get involved, but I would LOVE to find a way to involve RP in it. Perhaps we can get our UU on the field, contribute signifigantly to the ND/GoW alliance, and convince them to allow us to return to a part of Southern Bob ... it's far too corrupt for them to use anyhow.

We need horses and saltpeter, though. And we'd need to receive horses soon to begin our buildup. We probably couldn't field a very sizeable force with only 5 cities, but if we can get some scout/sabateur conquisadors involved, it may be very worthwhile.

--Togas

[Cort Haus]

from Arnelos

Cort Haus,

GodKing and I have started working on an idea for using the GoW/ND -vs- Legoland conflict to the advantage of GS/RP. Here's what I had in mind.

We play along with GoW/ND's invasion plans of Legoland and we even provide some means of aiding them to convince them that we want them to succeed (which we do!). We do not, however, agree to contribute forces of our own (or at least not substantial forces without payment of a chunk of Southern Bob on which we can get saltpeter).

We play along up to the point when GoW and ND have landed forces on Legos and the war is in full swing.

At that point, we have a fork in the road. If we have already obtained saltpeter and GS has already upgraded most of their knights to cavalry, you land them ON BOB and move to raze as many cities of the ND and/or GoW cores as possible. Once their cores have been razed, your cavalry forces attempt to mop up what is left of resistence on Bob over time and clear enough territory for a serious GS/RP presence on Bob, including the holding of a good number of luxuries and enough land with all strategic resources.

Since we would be joining the Legoland/Vox side of the conflict, we might even be able to get some assistance from Vox in this endeavor, especially if we agreed to pay them with a chunk of GoW's lands (especially that island of theirs) in return.

Legoland will still be powerful, likely, but at least some of their homeland will be damaged, perhaps even some key cities razed by the GoW/ND forces. Since we will still be a long ways from Amphibious Warfare, ND/GoW cannot exact retribution against us on Estonia, and the best they could hope for is to retreat from Legos and send their troops home... but by the time their troops would get home, much of their core cities would already be razed.

We could work in tandem with Legoland and Vox to track down and destroy whatever remained of GoW/ND forces.

The endgame could be decided on primarily builder means with Legoland using a damaged Legos homeland and their Vox allies and GS using Estonia and a healthy chunk of Bob with their RP allies. First to spaceship wins?

RP gets their homeland back, Vox gets expanded territory, GS gets a very large chunk of Bob themselves, GoW and ND get eventually knocked out of the game or so seriously wiped down that they are no longer a factor (and thus eventually wiped out).

It's an idea, at least.

[Cort Haus]

to Togas & Arnelos

Hi Arnelos / Togas,

Could you possibly give us an indication of what your immediate-term unit plans are so we can decide how to use the 3 galleys around Spain, and plan our unit capacity for involvement in the possible strike on Lego. Many thanks. We'll probably be exploring the oceans north and north-west of Nuevo Espana for now.

Lego have just built Magellans and are on their GA. We don't intend on sending a large force, as we are committed to building for the time being - but we need to send something to get NDGOW to attack.

With regard to the suggestion of backstabbing NDGOW and invading Bob instead - this was not felt by GS to be a favoured option, for a number of reasons. Primarily, we see the time to reclaim Spain on BOB as further down the road after Lego has been weakened, and while GoW-ND are fighting each other. Also, we don't want to destroy our rep. At least, not yet.

Regards,

Cort

[Cort Haus]

from Arnelos

As for the units situation, Togas can handle that one since he's more familiar with the in-game situation at the moment.

Regarding the backstab of ND/GoW plan, we've already scrapped it in internal discussions ourselves (sorry for not getting back to you on that earlier). We came to much the same conclusion... that it's not time yet to try to claim land on Bob and stopping Legoland is the more important goal for now.

We worry, however, that by stopping Legoland and leaving Bob to build, we may be acting to hand ND rather than Legoland the game...

We need to devise something to handle this possibility and an agreement with Legoland even a short time after we have helped invade them (should Legoland be willing) should not be overlooked. We need to damage Legoland to re-establish the balance of power, but we do not want to see ND (or GoW) become the new hegemon as a result. GS not having saltpeter on Stormia makes it all too likely that this could be the result if you cannot claim and reasonably SECURE a part of Bob.

Perhaps ND/GoW would be willing to pay GS/Spain part of Southern Bob including the saltpeter source in return for our aid against Legoland. Surely they must understand that saltpeter and an ability to defend it would be part of our security. Frankly, I think they'd be willing to agree to it.

[Cort Haus]

to Arnelos

We worry, however, that by stopping Legoland and leaving Bob to build, we may be acting to hand ND rather than Legoland the game...

This view was expressed by one person on our forum too, to which Theseus replied :

* I don;t care what happens to Lego... damaged or destroyed, the key is to turn Legoland into a war-torn hell, where ND and GoW are compelled to commit serious forces to protect whatever they want to keep from all, including each other.

* Perhaps the most important point I can make: AFTER smashing Lego's bricks, we need to reduce ND's production power ... . This will require diplo maneuvers with GoW, military action, gaining control of the Bobian luxuries, etc. Whatever happens post-GAUL, ND's production capabilities *must* be diminished. My guess is that this will be with Tanks, supported by Cavs /Conqs in a razing role.

The narrow black stripe on the north of Bob - laughingly described as "GoW's half of Bob" strongly suggsts that ND intend to win this on their own. The added fact that ND were, at the time of the Embassy, supplying more lux to Lego than to GoW speaks volumes too, IMV.

GS intends for Stormia, again in T's words, to be "bristling like a friggin' porcupine" by the time Marines come round - which in addition to the inherent tension btw GoW and ND makes an inter-Bobian war highly likely. Neither would be easily able to defend its Legonian holdings, and defend their homelands from each other. Thus - any holdings on Lego would be hard to hold.

If either ND or (less likely) GoW were to be too strong after Lego was defeated, GS would expect to work with the other.

[Cort Haus]

from Togas

With regard to the suggestion of backstabbing NDGOW and invading Bob instead - this was not felt by GS to be a favoured option, for a number of reasons. Primarily, we see the time to reclaim Spain on BOB as further down the road after Lego has been weakened, and while GoW-ND are fighting each other. Also, we don't want to destroy our rep. At least, not yet.

I completely agree. I've expressed such feelings to my team in our forum and I do believe they agree as well. I'm mostly hoping that we can be granted a few city sites on Bob so that a future attack can be held from those sites.

--Togas

[Cort Haus]

from Togas

Could you possibly give us an indication of what your immediate-term unit plans are so we can decide how to use the 3 galleys around Spain, and plan our unit capacity for involvement in the possible strike on Lego. Many thanks. We'll probably be exploring the oceans north and north-west of Nuevo Espana for now.

Our immediate plans are to build markets and banks. We've stopped all unit production. We have 1 galley, which is in port, and we have 1/2 of the seawall in place. We'll get back to building the seawall and any other units once our market/bank project is done.

If GS would like to withdraw a few galleys from our shores we have no objections at all. With the seawall in place, we don't need the galleys there ... however, we will need their help in the future when we shift GS units away from the western shore to be replaced with our units. We'll need a few galleys to block off potential landing sites during the shift.

--Togas

[Cort Haus]

to Togas

Thanks for that news, Togas. It clarifies our plans, and how they fit into the bigger picture.

GS wants to see an assault on Lego, and is willing to strategically ally itself with GoWND for this purpose, but we don't want to shift a single shield off our builder program if we can help it. Nor will we lift a single unit off the sea-wall. Only if we have no coal, and we see some on the west coast of Lego, would we raise our commitment.

So, we have a mighty army of about 12 units available, which, by the symetry of fate, fit nicely on the 3 galleons we'll have available. We've asked GoW when they'd like to go, if the operation was to proceed, and we wait their response.

Also - as you guys have been discussing, the elimination of Lego is not the best outcome and we don't want to go out of our way to help them achieve that. The destruction of Lego would not be disastrous, as the spoils would be unstable and hard to hold, but best would be a nice long meatgrinder affair - with the destruction of a few of Lego's core cities, especially the Wonders, and the vaporisation of huge quantities of Lego, GoW and ND units.

GoWND want GS in for two reasons. (1) To cover their own backs, and (2) to increase the odds of quick success. They know that GS want Lego damaged, and we can't pretend otherwise. We have already indicated to them that we believe that two big, strong, warmongering civs like GoW/ND have enough to go and give Lego a bloody nose, but we are happy to offer a token force if this is enough to make the war go ahead.

Essentially, for GS, getting Lego into a war now will destract them from the tech path to Scientific Method and allow GS to build the Theory of Evolution and hopefully on to the Hoover Dam. This would be the production platform for a mid-to-late Industrial military to (a) defend Stormia and (b) bid for Bob. With Lego damaged, ND could realistically face a GS/RP/GoW alliance where RP's UU would be able to deliver a negotiating position for land on Bob, and much damage to ND's production capacity.

Without the war, and with their GA and Vox's free tech Lego could get to Sci Method around the same time as GS. The war will force them to take 2 extra techs in Mil Trad and Nat. We reckon their GA has come too soon for them to take full advantage of - using it for cheap MA techs rather than eating up 4-turn IA techs.

One other thing, we got Metallurgy in a deal from GoW this turn, so make a note in you diary - the NTA expires in 20 turns - that's when we'll be able to bring you into the IA.

Regards,

Cort.

[Cort Haus]

to Togas & Arnelos

Hi Togas / Arnelos

So far, it's looking like GoW-ND may not be able to get a force ready in time to hit Lego before Rails and Rifles. Lack of boats, I'd guess. It could easily be thwarted by a sea-wall in any case, we suspect.

If not military action, then other ways to slow down Lego will be persued - embargoes, wonder denial, and Vox.

Do you think that Vox could be, ahem, persuaded that the world at large feels very strongly that Lego shouldn't get Vox's tech? It could be the clincher if Lego get that.

Regards,

Cort.

[DeepO]

to Togas:

Togas,

I'm sorry, I hope you can correct this. I sent you Chemistry accepted in the PTWDG, as I thought it to be strange we didn't gave it yet. However, we still have a NDA agreement we need to keep in mind. We don't want to break that, of course, so please don't accept the trade!

Further, your payment of gpt has stopped, we hope you can help us out some more. Currently, we're working towards getting the ToE, and if GoW would help, we should be able to get it before Lego has a chance.

Other points: You now have a size 9 city, do you need another lux for that? we still have one source ready we can share with you.

And last point: don't you need another city on your territory to make best use of how you work all available tiles?

cheers,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Thanks Togas,

The moment we can send you the techs we will, of course. Chemistry is currently blocking the path to more techs, but I think the next one you really can use is steam. We should discover that one in 2 turns, and the moment we see Lego having the tech and all prereq techs are cleared from NDAs, you get it from us.

Incense will be sent next turn, and I'll ask the team where they would think a new city would work best. Maybe you could use 2, I'm not sure...

DeepO

DeepO,

We'll cancel the trade. Please sent it (and any other tech) or way when you can.

We have purchased Democracy from Vox and plan to switch to it ASAP, most likely next turn.

We will resent gpt to your team next turn, I think we can afford more than last time.

We could really use another luxury.

And if you can suggest a good location for another city, please let us know.

--Togas

[DeepO]

Sent to Togas:

Togas,

we'll be sending you Chemistry this turn as its NDA has expired. That means we can send physics next turn, and ToG and Magnetism the turn after that. However, for Metallurgy, we're going to need to wait until turn 196, as it still holds an NDA. I'm sorry we can't get you to the industrial age any sooner.

Other things: when looking at the save, it looks like you can put another city on El Paso 77. EP 89 is also an option, but sacrificing your cow would be too much. And San Antonio could split in SA8 and SA2, but that would mean you have to disband a city, which of course is not so nice. EP 77 seems a good choice, though.

Lux: I forgot to notice last time you already had incense. We only have furs and incense, and are giving furs allready. So no additional lux, I'm afraid. Sorry for getting your hopes up.

Right now, we've got Steam (but can't send it to you before you enter the industrial age), but you lack a source of coal, and we only have one. However, we can probably RR your land for you, in 10 turns time we should have a couple of spare workers for this task. Any sooner is no use: without Steam, you won't benefit from the RRs in your territory.

The other teams have all entered the industrial age, and Vox received Nationalism as a free tech. Lego doesn't have it yet, but will probably receive it next turn or so. Lego is 3 or 4 turns behind us in the tech race.

We're on our ways to the ToE, and if all goes well (especially if GoW does not backstab us), we will get it. No other team can beat us. That should also mean we get Hoover. However, to be absolutely perfect in efficiency, we're running short on gold... is there any chance you can spare an additional 40 gold (one time payment)? If you need it, we should be able to send it back in a couple of turns

I hope all is going well, please don't hesitate to contact us if you need something.

DeepO